Trump to win?

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

What Republicans can learn from PM Theresa May


In a speech at her Conservative Party’s annual convention, Britain’s Prime Minister Theresa May laid out a bold plan to reform her country—and her party. She may also have provided a template for reform-minded conservatives in the United States who will be challenged to pick up the pieces of the Republican Party after Donald Trump’s increasingly probable defeat.

Prime Minister May framed her party’s task as creating what she calls a “Great Meritocracy”—a country “built on the values of fairness and opportunity, where everyone plays by the same rules and where every single person—regardless of their background, or that of their parents—is given the chance to be all they want to be.” It shouldn’t matter, she said, “where you were born, who your parents are, where you went to school, what your accent sounds like, what god you worship, whether you’re a man or a woman, or black or white.” But if we are honest, she concluded, we will admit that this is not the case today.

The question is what to do about it. The Prime Minister’s answer is to make the Conservatives the party of “ordinary working people.” This means, to begin, acknowledging the legitimacy of the discontent that fueled the pro-Brexit majority in the June referendum. “Just listen to the way a lot of politicians and commentators talk about the public,” she declared. “They find your patriotism distasteful, your concerns about immigration parochial, your views about crime illiberal, your attachment to your job security inconvenient. They find the fact the more than seventeen million voters decided to leave the European Union simply bewildering.”

The explanation, Mrs. May asserted, is class: “If you’re well off and comfortable, Britain is a different country and these concerns are not your concerns. It’s easy to dismiss them—easy to say that all you want from government is for it to get out of the way.” If the Conservatives are to be the party of ordinary working people, they must take populist concerns onboard without surrendering to the populist agenda—or to its least defensible sentiments.

etc

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

it might not have the 'credibility' of the atlantic, nor 'stoke the passions of the privileged CRONY CLASS'
(nor those of the Free Shit Army, nor the social justice warrior snowflake brigade)

but at least 'zero cred' (mode=sarc, level=thick'n'juicy)
who IMHO has shown more CRED than all the rest of the 'establishment' propaganda outlets COMBINED over the past few years - in that they at least REPORT what's really going on

vs the LAMERSTREAM MEDIA BS spinfest that occurs daily, constantly (since 2008)
that all you 'with her' lap up with gusto, as to feed you own GD 'confirmation bias'

but us Deplorables, OTOH - do seem to still think that the twistedly-corrupt POLITICAL CLASS is far, far MORE DANGEROUS to The Rest of US, than anything that could possibly offset the 'benefits' of what we've seen from the obozo+hillbilly show; which is PURE MALFEASANCE at every level of the current admin - and we can see, quite evidently now - that the stench goes all the way to the whitehouse:

White House Intervened To Suppress Hillary email Scandal, Leaked Emails Reveal

Newly revealed emails between the White House and State Department reveal that, not only was Obama aware of Hillary's private email server, his administration actively intervened to suppress the story on her behalf.

• Oct 7, 2016 7:03 AM

not that THAT is any sort of new revelation, or anything - merely CONFIRMS what us Deplorables have suspected all along - like since the 1990's, in particular.

and voter fraud is a myth 'perpetuated by the right' in an attempt to 'preserve white privilege'?

except, that is, it's only 'fraud' UNLESS it extends non-existent 'rights' to those that can be counted-on to vote for the so-called PC crowd's 'privileged' candidates - right?

Riiiight!

More Illegal Immigrant Voters Discovered In Philly - "Just The Tip Of The Iceberg"

Pennsylvania becomes the latest state to reveal voter registration fraud, joining previously discovered dead voters in Virginia and Colorado.

• Oct 6, 2016 9:30 PM

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

Sure he is. And given the choice, the best minds among us think Hillary's brand of con artistry, narcissism and self-promotion is the kind we should support. Of all the panderers and advantage takers in the race, the best people tell us Hillary is the one we ought get behind.

if you truly feel "there is no choice" why do you make one?

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

...i agree with you, though, that trump is a con artist feeding his narcissism and promoting his brand by taking advantage of those economic losers [not meaning that in a pejorative way, but simply descriptive].

Sure he is. And given the choice, the best minds among us think Hillary's brand of con artistry, narcissism and self-promotion is the kind we should support. Of all the panderers and advantage takers in the race, the best people tell us Hillary is the one we ought get behind.

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

There is no Trump phenomena. Trump is simply an original entertainer, a carny with flair and he took over a political party that got caught sleeping. He has no policy, his supporters could care less about policy, they just don't want to lose the remnants their white privilege. These are the ancestors of the voters who didn't want to lose their white privilege in 1860. But white privilege is going away quickly. I don't expect y'all to take it well but the rest of us will continue to try and move forward.

i, too, oppose trump but i do think there is a "trump phenomenon." it is the rebellion of those who have lost out from globalization, technological advancement and cultural change. there are certainly those among trump supporters who imo are motivated by racial animus. but i have some sympathy for those who have been trashed by the changes our country has undergone. and i think it is to our shame that globalization was sold as an unalloyed good while all its benefits went to the upper few percent, and all its costs were paid by those in the lowest socio-economic strata.

i agree with you, though, that trump is a con artist feeding his narcissism and promoting his brand by taking advantage of those economic losers [not meaning that in a pejorative way, but simply descriptive].

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Trump to win?

How about if you are in the US on election day you get to vote...all foreigners, all felons, everybody.

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

Do we expect the world will shift on its axis as all those undecided "Atlantic" readers leaning toward Trump now switch to HRC on the basis of this endorsement?

It's unlikely there is one Atlantic reader not already committed to HRC. In our modern world a well written piece in a respected magazine is repeated over and over again in hundreds of venues and it is those repetitions that will garner votes. It's the reason I posted it here. I don't expect the vocal opposition to change their mind but there are many silent readers here and possibly one or two of them will get off the fence and vote for HRC.

We know what the establishment thinks and what it wants. For goodness sake, it's the entire reason the Trump phenomena exists in the first place.

There is no Trump phenomena. Trump is simply an original entertainer, a carny with flair and he took over a political party that got caught sleeping. He has no policy, his supporters could care less about policy, they just don't want to lose the remnants their white privilege. These are the ancestors of the voters who didn't want to lose their white privilege in 1860. But white privilege is going away quickly. I don't expect y'all to take it well but the rest of us will continue to try and move forward.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Trump to win?

uh huh, exactly what i'd expect out of those who practically brag about being 'with her'.

meanwhile, for those of US in the ranks of the 'deplorables', that is
within the 'uneducated' demographic (read un-indoctrinated by the lifetime-tenured .edu-industrial complex, who pay themselves 100's of thousands to MILLIONS of dollars per year, with their salaries overly-inflated by .gov edu-loan 'subsidies' that have created a gen or 2 of indentured serfs - even as they fatten the coffers of the financial-fraud industrial complex, while the FSA (free sh_t army) screams for MOAR -

all fanned by the fin-fraud industrial-complex OWNED lamerstream media - that then INSULTS those of us not so 'fortunate' to have been indoctrinated?

you might even remember - you know - like back when you used-to work for a living, santa?

that a lot, if not most of those of us in 'the deplorables' demograpic just happen to be the same people who do the now 'lower caste' stuff like: keep the lights ON, the airconditioning, elevators, and tesla's running, the water flowing and toilets flushing, the 5star restaurants serving (their overly-inflated egotistical diners), and even whole-wallet's all-natch, all-organic, non-gmo'd, out-of-season jet-flown fresh EVERYTHING available all winter long ?

not that any of US matter, esp to all them high-falutin cause-du-jour social-justice-warrior types (or would that be worrier types) that the obozo+hillbilly show constantly preens for?

while you in the CRONY CLASS, the beneficiaries of the all them deficit-spent subsidies, sit back comfortably and dump on those who question any of the excesses of the fin-fraud industrial complex-OWNED obozo+hillbilly administration of the past 7 or 8 years

ALL of which were entirely enabled by that very same hillbilly show's signing of both NAFTA, which eliminated MILLIONS OF OUR JOBS (down here in the lower caste) - along with REPEAL OF GLASS-STEAGALL -

which allowed the complete and utterly HOSTILE TAKEOVER of the entire us.gov, which they - in the crony class - now consider a WHOLLY-OWNED subsidiary of the Fascist State of amerika...
which is now HQ'd in lower manhattan - or chappaqua, depending on ones POV

and then expect us 'deplorables' to just lay down and accept as 'the truth' that pukes forth daily out of their ever so adoring 'admirers' within the BOUGHT-OFF lamerstream media?

Riiight!
shur, whatever you say santa.





well.. at least they've also shown a willingness to also tell us why their endorsement of hitlery also makes their editorial board as big a bunch of hippycritters and TRAITORS to We, The Rest of The People as have ever existed in The (fka) USA

to wit:


and THEN the obozo+hillbilly admin-appointed FBI chief allowed the DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE ?

and what do we hear out of that very same (mostly lib-dem run), hitlery-endorsing 'establishment' media?





oh, theres more than just that....

there's THIS very poignant OP/ED piece as well



(noting where their apparent loyalties... umm... lie, or.. uhhh... have layed prev):


with emph/bold by ZH.

again, could not have said it better, MY deplorable self.

As another deplorable, left school with three 'O' level's that has, mind you, left his mark; may I be so bold as to ask, politely, that I am able to print out the above and frame it?
That is one of the best posts ever here on good old iTulip.

Yes and I have been there with a bank here in the UK that had got itself into deep trouble late 80's early 90's and had deliberately incentivised all its managers to withdraw all overdrafts. Survived by the skin of my teeth, so I know exactly what this underlying debate is all about. It was such experiences that led me to propose the use of free enterprise equity capital, rather than debt to underpin a small business. What we are witnessing is the end game of a feudal mercantile economy entirely based upon the issuance of debt. Yes, debt is fine as long as one can be certain of long term stability, but the smaller you are, the greater the risk of instability; and to be sure, we have had instability rained on us for decades now. Banks thrive on instability; which is exactly the opposite for small communities.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: The national ID card

The question of a national ID moves in and out of public attention.
I think it would solve far more problems than it creates.

In fact, for the most important purposes, it would not even need your name on it.
(It would need some sort of number, to avoid vote duplication).
It would only need to have your picture or some sort of bio-metric ID capability,
which could index the data base to resolve questions such as:

This person is a US citizen and entitled to vote,

or ,

this person is a legal US resident and entitled to work,

or

none of the above.

A national ID card using a smart card with a digital certificate on it is something I would very much like to see. Done properly (yes, fat chance of that being it's the utterly dysfunctional U.S. government), it would effectively eliminate identity theft crimes due to the idiotic use of a Social Security Number as a unique ID. For the various trash companies that insist on having a unique identifier for each of their customers for tracking purposes, a smart card based national ID could generate unique IDs usable by vendors without subjecting the cardholder to risk of identity theft.

Biometrics are good in that people tend to forget PINs all the time but the problem with biometrics is that good quality biometric readers are quite expensive, enrollment typically cannot be done at home, and people's biometric profiles (most common is fingerprint) can change.

And, as you say, such a card could easily be to validate a person as legally entitled to vote or not.

[Polish_Silver]

The national ID card

I'd like to see some discussion of ways to test voter eligibility that include safeguards so legitimate voters are protected. I assume iTulipers do want all citizens to have the ability to vote.

I think somewhere in this thread people said things like "well you have to show a photo ID anytime you fly, don't you?" (Don't have time to track down the exact quote, sorry.)

I don't see any discussion of people who don't already have photo ID, and would find it difficult to get. Elderly people. People who don't drive. People who don't have their birth certificate tucked away on the shelf.

. . .

The question of a national ID moves in and out of public attention.
I think it would solve far more problems than it creates.

In fact, for the most important purposes, it would not even need your name on it.
(It would need some sort of number, to avoid vote duplication).
It would only need to have your picture or some sort of bio-metric ID capability,
which could index the data base to resolve questions such as:

This person is a US citizen and entitled to vote,

or ,

this person is a legal US resident and entitled to work,

or

none of the above.

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

It's pretty funny thatthe Atlantic thinks being secretive and a liar disqualifies a candidate, yet gives HRC a pass. Trump might be unqualified, but when I look at what the "qualified" politicians have done to this country...

funny?
its downright HILARIOUS...

and we wont EVEN get into what the 'affirmative action candidate & constitutional law perfessah' has done...

or rather, make that 'ENABLED and EMPOWERED'

aint it somethin....

[shiny!]

Re: Trump to win?

Do we expect the world will shift on its axis as all those undecided "Atlantic" readers leaning toward Trump now switch to HRC on the basis of this endorsement?

Other than one more feather in the virtue signaling plumage, do endorsements like this mean anything in the ballot box? I think even less so than in a "normal" election.

And once the Wikileaks disclosures confirmed our worst suspicions of media coordination with HRC's campaign in torpedoing Bernie, I sort of stopped caring about the opinions of the top 100 editors. They crossed a line that there's no crossing back.

We know what the establishment thinks and what it wants. For goodness sake, it's the entire reason the Trump phenomena exists in the first place.

It's pretty funny that the Atlantic thinks being secretive and a liar disqualifies a candidate, yet gives HRC a pass. Trump might be unqualified, but when I look at what the "qualified" politicians have done to this country...

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

A quick review of educational demographics for "white" voters makes it clear why Trump "loves the poorly educated".

uh huh, exactly what i'd expect out of those who practically brag about being 'with her'.

meanwhile, for those of US in the ranks of the 'deplorables', that is
within the 'uneducated' demographic (read un-indoctrinated by the lifetime-tenured .edu-industrial complex, who pay themselves 100's of thousands to MILLIONS of dollars per year, with their salaries overly-inflated by .gov edu-loan 'subsidies' that have created a gen or 2 of indentured serfs - even as they fatten the coffers of the financial-fraud industrial complex, while the FSA (free sh_t army) screams for MOAR -

all fanned by the fin-fraud industrial-complex OWNED lamerstream media - that then INSULTS those of us not so 'fortunate' to have been indoctrinated?

you might even remember - you know - like back when you used-to work for a living, santa?

that a lot, if not most of those of us in 'the deplorables' demograpic just happen to be the same people who do the now 'lower caste' stuff like: keep the lights ON, the airconditioning, elevators, and tesla's running, the water flowing and toilets flushing, the 5star restaurants serving (their overly-inflated egotistical diners), and even whole-wallet's all-natch, all-organic, non-gmo'd, out-of-season jet-flown fresh EVERYTHING available all winter long ?

not that any of US matter, esp to all them high-falutin cause-du-jour social-justice-warrior types (or would that be worrier types) that the obozo+hillbilly show constantly preens for?

while you in the CRONY CLASS, the beneficiaries of the all them deficit-spent subsidies, sit back comfortably and dump on those who question any of the excesses of the fin-fraud industrial complex-OWNED obozo+hillbilly administration of the past 7 or 8 years

ALL of which were entirely enabled by that very same hillbilly show's signing of both NAFTA, which eliminated MILLIONS OF OUR JOBS (down here in the lower caste) - along with REPEAL OF GLASS-STEAGALL -

which allowed the complete and utterly HOSTILE TAKEOVER of the entire us.gov, which they - in the crony class - now consider a WHOLLY-OWNED subsidiary of the Fascist State of amerika...
which is now HQ'd in lower manhattan - or chappaqua, depending on ones POV

and then expect us 'deplorables' to just lay down and accept as 'the truth' that pukes forth daily out of their ever so adoring 'admirers' within the BOUGHT-OFF lamerstream media?

Riiight!
shur, whatever you say santa.

For the 3rd time in it's 150+ year history The Atlantic magazine has endorsed a candidate for president. The first one was Lincoln, the current endorsement is for HRC....
There's more here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-trump/501161/

well.. at least they've also shown a willingness to also tell us why their endorsement of hitlery also makes their editorial board as big a bunch of hippycritters and TRAITORS to We, The Rest of The People as have ever existed in The (fka) USA

to wit:

From Whitewater to Benghazi: A Clinton-Scandal Primer

Cheryl Mills, Hillary Clinton’s chief of staff at the State Department, received partial immunity from the FBI during its investigation of Clinton’s emails.

and THEN the obozo+hillbilly admin-appointed FBI chief allowed the DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE ?

and what do we hear out of that very same (mostly lib-dem run), hitlery-endorsing 'establishment' media?

....

We know what the establishment thinks and what it wants. For goodness sake, it's the entire reason the Trump phenomena exists in the first place.

oh, theres more than just that....

there's THIS very poignant OP/ED piece as well

"I Listened To A Trump Supporter... Now I Understand"

... the dominant media narrative characterizing Trump supporters as a bunch of racist, uneducated brutes is pretty much just dishonest, elitist propaganda.

• Oct 6, 2016 9:14 AM

(noting where their apparent loyalties... umm... lie, or.. uhhh... have layed prev):

The following article by David A Hill Jr is simply outstanding.
Here are some powerful excerpts from the piece: I Listened to a Trump Supporter

I talked at length with a Trump supporter I grew up around. I wanted to understand. I respected her growing up. I wanted to know why a person as kind and compassionate as I remember her is voting for someone like Donald Trump.

She was a family friend, a good person. In rural Ohio, everything was tight. Money, jobs. If you really needed quick cash, she’d put you to work doing landscaping. She’d pay fairly and reliably for the area.

She’s voting for Donald Trump. I disagree with her choice, but I understand why she rejects Clinton so fiercely, and why she’s been swept up in Donald Trump’s particular brand of right-wing populism. I feel that on the left, it’s increasingly easy to ignore these people, to disregard them, to write them off as racists, bigots, or uneducated. I think that’s a loss for everyone involved, and that sometimes listening can help you to at least understand why a person is making the choices they make, so you can work on the root causes. For her, the root cause isn’t racism. In fact, I remember her as one of the only people in the area who proudly hired black workers, in a place where that was a huge issue. She fought over that choice.

But that’s enough background. Let me relay a bit of what she told me.

She’s a person who built her business from the ground up. She wasn’t rich, but was very comfortable for the area. She had a nice house, a nice car, and was stable. She achieved the American dream of not having to struggle. Things changed during the housing crisis. A landscaping business requires customers who need landscaping, and people who don’t own homes just don’t need landscaping. In some of these neighborhoods, one in five people lost their homes. That almost immediately turns a successful landscaping business into a struggling one.

Then there was a domino effect. She couldn’t pay for her lawn-care equipment leases and loans. That hurt her work efficiency. Then, she lost her car. But that didn’t stop the payments. Then, she lost her house. She slowly had to let go all of her employees, until it was just her, hand-mowing lawns for cash the way you might expect a high school student in the summertime.

She told me that every week, it seemed there was another default letter, another foreclosure, another bank demanding more blood from her dry veins. To her, that pile of default notices and demands for payment looked suspiciously similar to Hillary Clinton’s top donor list.

She lost everything she worked so hard for. Obama swore he was going to help. The Wall Street bailout did seem to help Wall Street. But it did absolutely nothing for her. She turns on the news and sees how the Dow Jones is doing better than ever. But that didn’t bring her house and livelihood back. Liberals insist that Obama’s made her life better. But, now she’s driving a car that falls apart randomly while having to pay those same banks for a car she doesn’t own and never will. It’s difficult to convince someone whose life is objectively worse that their life is better. And it’s disingenuous to try. You can break down the specifics, sure. But when someone’s hungry, and you’re busy silencing their complaints by telling them how well world hunger is improving, you’re just going to upset them.

This is not a person who is stupid or racist. She knows Bush caused the economy collapse with his irresponsible tax policies and wars. But she saw liberals as fighting for the banks’ recovery, to hell with her needs. She sees in Hillary someone who celebrates that approach. Who measures US success by the success of multinational mega corporations?—?corporations who undercut and destroy local businesses. This is a person who grew up in a town with a friendly neighborhood general store, a locally-owned hardware store, farmers’ markets, florists, and auto shops. All of these businesses closed when Walmart moved into town. All their owners now work at that Walmart for a fraction of their previous wages, no benefits, and no hope for something better, something of their own. And now, she sees a free trade supporting former Walmart executive about to come in to office, and it feels like salt in her community’s wounds.

This is a wounded person. Insulting her or continuing to hurt her isn’t going to help. She’s swept up in Trump’s message because she feels someone’s finally listening. Right-wing populism is an awful thing. But desperate people with their backs against the wall will grasp on to whatever they feel will bring a change. Neoliberal capitalism is not sustainable for these people.

Over the past few years, she tried getting back in her business. But a corporation moved in and is operating far cheaper, using undocumented immigrant labor. I should note: She specifically said she doesn’t hold it against the migrant workers. As she said, “They’ve got to take whatever jobs they can get. Just like we do. It’s not their fault. They didn’t choose to make prices so low that legal businesses couldn’t compete.” She was literally a “job creator”. And she wasbeing priced out by the very people Donald Trump insists are pricing her out. That hurts everyone, and it adds an air of authenticity to what he says.

I asked her if she supports Trump’s Mexico wall. She told me, “It doesn’t matter if I do. Hillary wants a wall, too. That wall’s gonna happen.” She wasn’t simply making this up. She’s heard this from many sources, Clinton being one of them. So to her, the idea of a border wall is a non-issue. I pressed her on the issue, and she said she thinks, “It’s a waste of money. If someone wants to cross the border, they’re gonna cross the border.”…

A few times, she seemed ashamed of things Trump’s said or done. I’d ask her to unpack her feelings. She said he sometimes upsets her, but “If you wait and wait for a flawless candidate, you’ll never find one.” She said she’d be much prouder to vote for Trump if he’d tone down his rhetoric.

This fits into my strongly held belief that people are looking for an excuse to vote for Trump. All he has to do to win is tone down some of his more heinous and idiotic tendencies.

I talked to her a bit about Bernie Sanders, to see what she thought of him. She told me, “He seemed like a nice enough guy. But I didn’t pay him much mind because there was no way he was gonna beat Clinton.” I talked with her about his platform, his policy proposals. She lit up. She told me, “It’s a real shame he didn’t make it.” She told me that if she knew him, his record, and his proposals, she’d have voted for him. I said that since the primary concluded, Hillary’s shifted some to adopt policies similar to his, and I asked if that changed her mind. She told me, “It doesn’t matter what she says. It matters what she’s done.”

No amount of insulting her from an ivory tower is going to change her mind. No amount of guffawing about her lack of education, her self-deception, her racism, or her internalized misogyny is going to change her mind. The only thing she’ll listen to is a promise of real change to the system that’s hurt her. If the Democratic Party can’t offer her a viable alternative, we’re going to see another neck-and-neck election in 2020, and in 2024, and in 2028.

These people need a populist answer. They need someone willing to listen to their very real concerns, and offer solutions that don’t look like Band-Aids on bullet wounds. If they had that on the left, we wouldn’t even be discussing Ohio as a “swing state”.

Right now, this is the discourse we’re seeing about Trump supporters. This only emboldens those attitudes. To people like her, this feels like the left is laughing at her for her unwillingness to get in line and support the things that have left her broke and broken.

The above excerpts are not the entire piece. You should read the whole thing: I Listened to a Trump Supporter.
The more deeply I think about this election, the more I agree that the above sentiments motivate Trump voters far more than feelings of racism or hate. As I noted in a piece published a few weeks ago, The Status Quo vs. Donald Trump:

This isn’t about me. This is about the American voter, and the more time passes, the more I understand the motivations of the vast majority of Trump supporters. It isn’t xenophobia or racism, it’s a vote against the status quo and the way they’ve strip mined and destroyed this country. It’s a FU vote and a major gamble, but it’s not as irrational or hateful as you might think.

This doesn’t mean that Trump won’t betray his supporters and prove to be the Republican version of Barack Obama, but it does mean that the dominant media narrative characterizing Trump supporters as a bunch of racist, uneducated brutes is pretty much just dishonest, elitist propaganda.

with emph/bold by ZH.

again, could not have said it better, MY deplorable self.

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

ooops... dup deleted (like a shillary email) by my deplorable self

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

Do we expect the world will shift on its axis as all those undecided "Atlantic" readers leaning toward Trump now switch to HRC on the basis of this endorsement?

Other than one more feather in the virtue signaling plumage, do endorsements like this mean anything in the ballot box? I think even less so than in a "normal" election.

And once the Wikileaks disclosures confirmed our worst suspicions of media coordination with HRC's campaign in torpedoing Bernie, I sort of stopped caring about the opinions of the top 100 editors. They crossed a line that there's no crossing back.

We know what the establishment thinks and what it wants. For goodness sake, it's the entire reason the Trump phenomena exists in the first place.