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  • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

    Race to the bottom- who's dumber, the arrogant 2% or the sheeple?


    “What is really alarming is the increasingly arrogant sloppiness of these lies*, as though the government has become so profoundly confident of their ability to deceive people that they make virtually no effort to even appear credible.”

    Governments have known from the beginning of time that they can always deceive citizens and subjects by playing the patriot card. “Remember the Maine,” the “Gulf of Tonkin,” “weapons of mass destruction,” “the Reichstag fire”--the staged events and bogus evidence are endless. If Americans knew any history, they would not be so gullible.

    The real question before us is: What agenda or agendas is the “death of bin Laden” designed to further?

    There are many answers to this question. Many have noticed that Obama was facing re-election with poor approval ratings. Is anyone surprised that the New York Times/CBS Poll finds a strong rise in Obama’s poll numbers after the bin Laden raid? As the New York Times reported, “the glow of national pride” rose “above partisan politics, as support for the president rose significantly among both Republicans and independents. In all, 57 percent said they now approved of the president’s job performance, up from 46 percent.”

    In Washington-think, a 24% rise in approval rating justifies a staged event.

    Another possibility is that Obama realized that the the budget deficit and the dollar’s rescue from collapse require the end of the expensive Afghan war and occupation and spillover war into Pakistan. As the purpose of the war was to get bin Laden, success in this objective allows the US to withdraw without loss of face, thus making it possible to reduce the US budget deficit by several hundred billion dollars annually--an easy way to have a major spending cut.

    If this is the agenda, then more power to it. However, if this was Obama’s agenda, the military/security complex has quickly moved against it. CIA director Leon Panetta opened the door to false flag attacks to keep the war going by declaring that al Qaeda would avenge bin Laden’s killing. Secretary of State Clinton declared that success in killing bin Laden justified more war and more success. Homeland Security declared that the killing of bin Laden would motivate “homegrown violent extremists” into making terrorist attacks. “Homegrown violent extremists” is an undefined term, but this newly created bogyman seems to include environmentalists and war protesters. Like “suspect,” the term will include anyone the government wants to pick up.

    Various parts of the government quickly seized on the success in killing bin Laden to defend and advance their own agendas, such as torture. Americans were told that bin Laden was found as a result of information gleaned from torturing detainees held in Eastern European CIA secret prisons years ago.

    This listing of possible agendas and add-on agendas is far from complete, but for those capable of skepticism and independent thought, it can serve as a starting point. The agendas behind the theater will reveal themselves as time goes on. All you have to do is to pay attention and to realize that most of what you hear from the mainstream media is designed to advance the agendas.

    Paul Craig Roberts

    *It's hard to remember the "truth" when you're lying:

    The US government’s bin Laden story was so poorly crafted that it did not last 48 hours before being fundamentally altered. Indeed, the new story put out on Tuesday by White House press secretary Jay Carney bears little resemblance to the original Sunday evening story. The fierce firefight did not occur. Osama bin Laden did not hide behind a woman. Indeed, bin Laden, Carney said, “was not armed.”

    The firefight story was instantly suspicious as not a single SEAL got a scratch, despite being up against al Qaeda, described by former Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld as ‘the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers on the face of the earth.”

    Every original story detail has been changed. It wasn’t bin Laden’s wife who was murdered by the Navy SEALs , but the wife of an aide. It wasn’t bin Laden’s son, Khalid, who was murdered by the Navy SEALs, but son Hamza.

    Carney blamed the changed story on “the fog of war.” But there was no firefight, so where did the “fog of war” come from?

    The White House has also had to abandon the story that President Obama and his national security team watched tensely as events unfolded in real time (despite the White House having released photos of the team watching tensely), with the operation conveyed into the White House by cameras on the SEALs helmets. If Obama was watching the event as it happened, he would have noticed, one would hope, that there was no firefight and, thus, would not have told the public that bin Laden was killed in a firefight. Another reason the story had to be abandoned is that if the event was captured on video, every news service in the world would be asking for the video, but if the event was orchestrated theater, there would be no video.

    No explanation has been provided for why an unarmed bin Laden, in the absence of a firefight, was murdered by the SEALs with a shot to the head. For those who believe the government’s story that “we got bin Laden,” the operation can only appear as the most botched operation in history. What kind of incompetence does it require to senselessly and needlessly kill the most valuable intelligence asset on the planet?

    According to the US government, the terrorist movements of the world operated through bin Laden, “the mastermind.” Thanks to a trigger-happy stupid SEAL, a bullet destroyed the most valuable terrorist information on the planet. Perhaps the SEAL was thinking that he could put a notch on his gun and brag for the rest of his life about being the macho tough guy who killed Osama bin Laden, the most dangerous man on the planet, who outwitted the US and its European and Israeli allies and inflicted humiliation on the “world’s only superpower” on 9/11.

    When such a foundational story as the demise of bin Laden cannot last 48 hours without acknowledged “discrepancies” that require fundamental alternations to the story, there are grounds for suspicion in addition to the suspicions arising from the absence of a dead body, from the absence of any evidence that bin Laden was killed in the raid or that a raid even took place. The entire episode could just be another event like the August 4, 1964, Gulf of Tonkin event that never happened but succeeded in launching open warfare against North Vietnam at a huge cost to Americans and Vietnamese and enormous profits to the military/security complex.

    There is no doubt that the US is sufficiently incompetent to have needlessly killed bin Laden instead of capturing him. But who can believe that the US would quickly dispose of the evidence that bin Laden had been terminated? The government’s story is not believable that the government dumped the proof of its success into the ocean, but has some photos that might be released, someday.

    (all of the above quotes from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=24625)

    Comment


    • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

      What agenda or agendas is the “death of bin Laden” designed to further?
      I put my money on ---> "Re-elect Obama".

      Comment


      • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

        Found on another message board this morning --

        Next time you order a drink, ask for a Bin-Laden....... that's 2 shots followed by a splash of water


        (*groan*)
        http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

        Comment


        • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

          Originally posted by Shakespear View Post
          I put my money on ---> "Re-elect Obama".

          Timing's all wrong. He should have "staged" this event either last October or next summer.

          Comment


          • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

            Originally posted by ld
            OBL is easily and clearly classified as an Unlaw Combatant under the Geneva Conventions 1949, Laws of Armed Conflict.

            Excerpt:

            "Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations."
            Amusing that you are trying to use the Geneva Convention as a justification for what was done. For one thing, was OBL ever declared an Unlawful Combatant? Did OBL actually ever directly participate in hostilities against the United States? I mean there were probably nut jobs in the US who took credit for 9/11, much as a determined search can often dig up a nut job who will take credit for any gruesome action.

            Equally it is silly to equate OBL to a double agent: he has publicly been an adversary to the US for more than a decade.

            But let's look at the Geneva Convention, shall we? This little provision:

            (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
            To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
            (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
            (b) taking of hostages;
            (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
            (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
            Wow, if we hold the US to its high moral adherence to the Geneva Convention, a large number of activities seem to contradict this above statute including extraordinary rendition and the vast majority of prisoners at Guantanamo.

            Similarly:

            Art. 147. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the present Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in the present Convention, taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.
            And then let's look at the actual full text of Protocol:

            Gee - the phrase "unlawful combatant" doesn't actually appear in any of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

            Perhaps your source isn't correct - you can check yourself at:

            http://www.icrc.org/eng/war-and-law/...ions/index.jsp

            Originally posted by ld
            As I stated before, I don't find any war moral(only necessary sometimes) so I don't see a high ground in that respect. What I see is media operations designed to shape and gain public support for the interests of the nation state's government and media operations designed to shape and destroy public support for interests that oppose the nation state.

            Haven't you seen Musharraf's comments? It certainly sounds like he's playing his part in shaping perceptions to sympathize with Pakistan as moral victim.
            Whatever your opinion, the fact remains the same: OBL was unarmed, and both Pakistan and the White House have admitted it.

            Similarly the fact remains that it was GWB and the US who chose to go into Afghanistan, not Musharraf or any other Pakistani governmental representative.

            While I certainly believe Pakistan has an agenda, so does the United States.

            Originally posted by ld
            A military operation was conducted against a military objective that happened to be an unlawful combatant. The target was destroyed. See Below:

            I would never claim they have no rights, but according to the Laws of Armed Conflict they are unlawful combatants....and they do not enjoy the same rights as a lawful combatant/POW. That's the law lots of countries have agreed to when "playing" the "game" of war.
            Your source of the Laws of Armed Conflict aren't the Geneva Conventions. As for rights - it isn't what OBL believes or does, it is what America and Americans believe and do.

            As I've said before and will say again - I don't see the benefit whatsoever of becoming a nation of arbitrary justice in order to preserve 'truth, justice, and the American Way'

            Originally posted by ld
            I find the idea of rules to the "game" of war hilarious...but completely necessary. If they wish to be treated like civilians, they need to act more like civilian criminals rather than unlawful combatants at war. If they wish to "play" war they need to accept they are unlawful combatants and face the consequences of their reduced rights or find a sovereign nation to openly sponsor them.
            Again, I find it amusing that you continue to subscribe to the notion of the individual's views changing the laws which apply to them.

            Under this criteria, anyone who rebels in the US against the US establishment equally is no longer entitled to US justice and rights under the Constitution.

            But unfortunately that's not how it works.

            Rule of Law means laws apply to everyone. Rich or poor. Aristocrat or common. Citizen or non-citizen. Crazy or sane. Criminal or law abiding.

            And it works this way because as soon as you start distinguishing between who gets justice and who doesn't - justice disappears.

            Originally posted by ld
            Again, you're using the wrong law...it's not American law...it's international law as agreed by many nations in LOAC.
            Ah, now you're changing to LOAC.

            Very well, please point out the source that you use for LOAC - because there isn't a definite source.

            As noted above - the Geneva Conventions never say the words "unlawful combatant".

            Is it perhaps the US Military version which was created after Vietnam?

            Originally posted by ld
            Would you shoot beanbags rounds at a military command, control, and communications node?
            You are now trying to equate OBL to a military command post - or more specifically trying to dehumanize him into being an object.

            Nice try, but by all definitions OBL is a human being - albeit a crazy one.

            Once you start converting human beings into objects, you have begun the process of dehumanizing yourself.
            Last edited by c1ue; May 05, 2011, 11:35 AM.

            Comment


            • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

              Originally posted by Shakespear
              I put my money on ---> "Re-elect Obama".
              Originally posted by unlucky
              Timing's all wrong. He should have "staged" this event either last October or next summer.
              Not if the real objective is to exit the US from Afghanistan a la "Mission Accomplished".

              That one action might be enough to counter all of his perfidy thus far to Obama's core demographic, and re-energize support from the political center.

              Comment


              • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                Exactly. This will be all but forgotten by then.

                But the botched lies and story telling about the raid shows how accustomed they are to fibbing. Like a pathological liar, they tell lies even when its not necessary. Never let any story go to waste. Always try to spin it to make your side look better than they really are. Bin Laden hiding behind a woman firing an AK? Such a cliche.

                Comment


                • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                  Perhaps the best thing to come out of the way this was handled is that it send a message, not unlike the message sent by the Israelis after Munich.

                  I long ago gave up on the USA holding the moral high ground. But I think UBL was a unusual circumstance that required a unusual response. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                    Originally posted by bart View Post
                    Found on another message board this morning --

                    Next time you order a drink, ask for a Bin-Laden....... that's 2 shots followed by a splash of water


                    (*groan*)
                    Osama's last Facebook post


                    Comment


                    • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                      c1ue, your willingness to support the "full letter of the law" may be considered admirable, but you are wrong in this case. Based upon all available evidence, including the fact that Osama was not armed, it is still justifiable that he was killed rather than captured. I have yet to see any contesting of the report that he was "resisting capture," and, as I alluded to earlier, any movement from him would justify lethal force. You asked if there was any reason to suspect that he would have suicide belts or vests there, but the real question you would ask yourself, if you were involved in planning this, is this, "what is the likelihood of there not being any kind of IED?"

                      This wasn't a law enforcement action. Bean bag shotguns are a ludicrous notion. Your refusal to put this scenario into its proper context may satisfy your logos with respect to abiding by the law, but your contentions remain outside the realm of reality. You may indeed be a victim of "clueless lawyer syndrome," also known as Monday Quarterbacking, etc.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Osama bin Laden dead
                        Clinton: Allergy led to my ops room photo


                        ROME - An allergy and not anguish may explain why Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had her hand to her mouth while watching the commando operation to kill Osama bin Laden, she said on Thursday
                        A photo of Clinton, President Barack Obama and other senior officials watching the operation live from the White House situation room has become one of the most striking images of the raid that killed the al Qaeda leader.


                        http://powerwall.msnbc.msn.com/polit...-1687546.story


                        Osama bin Laden dead: Blackout during raid on bin Laden compound

                        The head of the CIA admitted yesterday that there was no live video footage of the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound as further doubts emerged about the US version of events.

                        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-compound.html


                        Maybe they were watching awful US TV
                        Hillary Clinton Says Al Jazeera Is Putting American Media To Shame


                        She says a major reason the State Department needs money is because "we are in an information war and we are losing that war."
                        Clinton said private media is not good enough to handle the job: "Our private media cannot fill that gap. Our private media, particularly cultural programming often works at counter purposes to what we truly are as Americans. I remember having an Afghan general tell me that the only thing he thought about Americans is that all the men wrestled and the women walked around in bikinis because the only TV he ever saw was Baywatch and World Wide Wrestling."
                        Meanwhile she says Al-Jazeera, CCTV and Russia Today are killing it: "Al Jazeera is winning. The Chinese have opened up a global English language and multi-language television network, the Russians have opened up an English language network. I've seen it in a couple of countries and it's quite instructive."
                        Or she was marveling at the stealth helicopters ?
                        Stealth helicopter: Did SEALs have a secret weapon in bin Laden attack?

                        Stealth helicopter rumors erupt as experts say the helicopter scuttled by SEALs during the attack on Osama bin Laden doesn't look like any known chopper in the US fleet.


                        Though US forces attempted to destroy the helicopter that was downed inside the compound's courtyard, its tail remained relatively intact on the other side of the wall. As pictures of the wreckage have emerged, aviation experts say the helicopter appears to share characteristics of both a Black Hawk helicopter and a stealth fighter jet.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                          Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                          c1ue, your willingness to support the "full letter of the law" may be considered admirable, but you are wrong in this case. Based upon all available evidence, including the fact that Osama was not armed, it is still justifiable that he was killed rather than captured. I have yet to see any contesting of the report that he was "resisting capture," and, as I alluded to earlier, any movement from him would justify lethal force. You asked if there was any reason to suspect that he would have suicide belts or vests there, but the real question you would ask yourself, if you were involved in planning this, is this, "what is the likelihood of there not being any kind of IED?"

                          This wasn't a law enforcement action. Bean bag shotguns are a ludicrous notion. Your refusal to put this scenario into its proper context may satisfy your logos with respect to abiding by the law, but your contentions remain outside the realm of reality. You may indeed be a victim of "clueless lawyer syndrome," also known as Monday Quarterbacking, etc.
                          And my understanding of c1ue's logic is that there was a high chance (but not zero) of there not being rigged explosives or some other threat to the lives of our soldiers in that house, and that the non-zero chance that there was is to be ignored in the service of not executing 'summary judgement' on OBL. This appears to be where opinion and the definition of 'summary judgement' and 'not armed' takes over.

                          Summary judgement to me is when a police officer witnesses a murder and decides to kill the perpetrator. In this case, the entire world had judged OBL's actions already - some condemning, some praising. OBL has claimed responsibility for 9/11. Therefore, there is nothing 'summary' about the judgement of the act. The society of civilized nations, such as it is, through condemnations by their representative leaders, came to a collective judgement. If OBL were to be captured, he would be put to death without question.

                          So, back to the non-zero chance; do we sacrifice our fellow citizens lives if in fact that chance played out? How many lives lost is acceptable? The entire squad? Remember, this all happened in 40 minutes and there was only 60-80% certainty that he was even there; how could those soldiers know there was no chance of a small personal group of men waiting somewhere within that house to attack on his command?

                          OBL had his day in court. He lived 10 years after being 'pronounced' guilty and accepting guilt. I believe it would be grossly irresponsible to possibly sacrifice one more American life for what is in effect respect for a process that has already played out.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                            Originally posted by Ghent12
                            I have yet to see any contesting of the report that he was "resisting capture," and, as I alluded to earlier, any movement from him would justify lethal force. You asked if there was any reason to suspect that he would have suicide belts or vests there, but the real question you would ask yourself, if you were involved in planning this, is this, "what is the likelihood of there not being any kind of IED?"
                            I still amused that you are seriously trying to tell me that OBL had any chance whatsoever of having an IED anywhere near him.

                            Seriously.

                            You're trying to convince me that OBL - the pawnmaster - was somehow so idealistic as to actually consider using the types of devices which the idiot kids are told to employ.

                            And that furthermore he would be employing these around his family.

                            There is no credible evidence that there were even assault weapons at the compound; no American troops were injured in any way and the equipment damage was purely due to equipment failure.

                            So you have heavily armed, highly trained troops who

                            1) weren't shot at,
                            2) confronted by a total of 14 to 20 civilians of which 1/3 to 1/2 were women and children,
                            3) attempting to apprehend a man who had suffered from kidney failure and was on dialysis

                            but felt they were seriously endangered?

                            These guys weren't meandering through the brush in Afghanistan under surveillance by Taliban.

                            They were in a residential home - one which the residents clearly must not have had any expectation of attack as evidenced by the lack of any defensive armament.

                            Originally posted by Ghent12
                            This wasn't a law enforcement action. Bean bag shotguns are a ludicrous notion. Your refusal to put this scenario into its proper context may satisfy your logos with respect to abiding by the law, but your contentions remain outside the realm of reality. You may indeed be a victim of "clueless lawyer syndrome," also known as Monday Quarterbacking, etc.
                            So far your only justifications for this situation was that he was a bad man.

                            The problem is, I'm not debating that.

                            I'm pointing out that just because he was a bad man, doesn't mean that the 'good guys' should act the same way.

                            Originally posted by jneal3
                            And my understanding of c1ue's logic is that there was a high chance (but not zero) of there not being rigged explosives or some other threat to the lives of our soldiers in that house, and that the non-zero chance that there was is to be ignored in the service of not executing 'summary judgement' on OBL. This appears to be where opinion and the definition of 'summary judgement' and 'not armed' takes over.
                            As I note above, the notion that there were IEDs is ludicrous.

                            IEDs are used to booby trap troops along an expected route. They are generally command activated, and in cases where they are not, they aren't used in areas actively lived in by 'friendlies'.

                            If OBL expected Seal teams to descend upon him, I can guarantee there would have been actual firefights and more than 4 men present (OBL, son, courier, and courier's brother).

                            It doesn't even seem that there were any number of bodyguards.

                            Perhaps these details have yet to come forth, but I am still trying to understand just how exactly OBL was presenting a credible threat when there was little to no shooting (outside of the kill team) and apparently no significant numbers of 'bad' men present - much less armed men.

                            The facts available thus far:

                            1) OBL shot and killed, also his son. Their bodies were taken by the kill team in a helicopter

                            2) Due to the crash of the 2nd helicopter, other captives couldn't be taken. Apparently OBL's wife and daughter weren't on suspicion of carrying IEDs and so weren't shot, but also weren't taken.

                            3) Pakistan recovered 4 dead bodies from the compound. 1 was the courier tracked to that location. 1 was the courier's brother. 1 was the courier's wife. So at most we have 2 bodyguards (1 mystery person and the courier's brother). There might in fact not have been any bodyguards - the courier may just have been traveling with his relatives.

                            Or perhaps you're going to tell me that dozens of bodyguards were neutralized without killing them? Or even bodies found?

                            As lakedaemonian pointed out and I actually agreed with - it is more than possible that Pakistan, or at least someone in its security establishment - knew of OBL's whereabouts and was implicitly protecting him in Abbotabad. If so, that's even less reason for lots of bodyguards.

                            In this scenario it could make more sense to shoot OBL if the US didn't want to embarrass Pakistan unduly, though of course this makes the assumption that OBL at trial would in some way want to or be able to make this happen.

                            Originally posted by jneal3
                            Summary judgement to me is when a police officer witnesses a murder and decides to kill the perpetrator. In this case, the entire world had judged OBL's actions already - some condemning, some praising. OBL has claimed responsibility for 9/11. Therefore, there is nothing 'summary' about the judgement of the act. The society of civilized nations, such as it is, through condemnations by their representative leaders, came to a collective judgement. If OBL were to be captured, he would be put to death without question.
                            Summary judgment is when 'justice' is meted out without benefit of due process.

                            Where's the due process here?

                            The "world's judgment" is frankly irrelevant. More importantly perhaps you can point out to me where the "world" passed an official death sentence on OBL.

                            I'd like to see a single example of an official proceeding or any other judicial action which reviewed OBL's actions and pronounced a sentence.

                            Even with the Nazis, there were the Nuremburg trials.

                            Whether "Stop! [blam] or I'll shoot!" or "Shot while resisting arrest" - either is not justice.
                            Last edited by c1ue; May 05, 2011, 03:48 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                              Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                              Not if the real objective is to exit the US from Afghanistan a la "Mission Accomplished".

                              That one action might be enough to counter all of his perfidy thus far to Obama's core demographic, and re-energize support from the political center.

                              So, Obama's cunning re-election plan involves not only killing American's most wanted terrorist but also extricating the US from its longest-running foreign war. What a cynical man he is. I hope Americans won't be fooled, and vote for Sarah Palin instead.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Osama bin Laden dead

                                Originally posted by unlucky
                                So, Obama's cunning re-election plan involves not only killing American's most wanted terrorist but also extricating the US from its longest-running foreign war. What a cynical man he is. I hope Americans won't be fooled, and vote for Sarah Palin instead.
                                Depends on your point of view.

                                We've "withdrawn" from Iraq, yet there are still apparently 47,000 American embassy guards and armed tourists there plus 180,000 'contractors' supporting American troops:

                                http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm

                                A "withdrawal" from Afghanistan would likely be the same.

                                Comment

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