Osama bin Laden dead

[c1ue]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

And I think it's safe to say Pakistan's knowledge and likely harboring of Bin Laden extends well beyond "might" to practically inconceivable that they didn't know.

Pakistan as in the entire official government of Pakistan, as opposed to a few select members within just the intelligence community, as opposed to a few select members of Pakistan's government.

The first option is extremely unlikely - plausible deniability if nothing dictates this not happen.

How exactly? Predator drones cannot be operating over Pakistan with the real or tacit approval of Pakistan.

Perhaps, and perhaps not. I very much doubt Pakistan wants to get into the drone hunting business. Agreed that they may be conveniently not seeing them.

Why capture him when it suits the US FAR better to kill him.

I fully agree that it is far more convenient for OBL to die than stand trial, but not necessarily for the reasons you think. Nothing conspiracy about this view - merely that a trial has no upside for the US except for that little detail about the rule of law.

But then again, we all know that the rule of law is already out the door...

Is it better to release a bit too soon or a bit too late?

As above - there is no upside to transparency. Once you've embarked into the realms of propaganda and departed even a semblence of rule of law.

As it turns out, it appears OBL wasn't even armed when shot:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...n002147D87.DTL

Always good to know we're better than the bad guys...

I think if the US cuts from Afghanistan quickly, which is a distinct possibility with the looming 2012 election.....the US will no longer be beholden to Pakistan for logistical access to Afghanistan which Pakistan has raped the US over.....that ends...and I think the serious shift towards a far more natural ally in India will cement sides of Cold War 2.

Pakistan may indeed have 'raped' the US over in Afghanistan, but far more likely Pakistan has just made the best of the opportunity presented to them.

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that the US presence in Afghanistan was in any way encouraged by Pakistan.

If Kashmir flares up...I actually think it would play strongly to the US.....the US traditionally steps in to de-escalate tensions between India/Pakistan....what if next time the US didn't...or was intentionally slow?

I think you are dreaming. The most likely result of increased conflict in Kashmir extending into open warfare is the neutralization of India as a force within the BRICs.

This is because the first thing that would happen if India is allowed to bring its full efforts to bear would be the entry of China on Pakistan's side - illicitly at first.

China also is quite conscious of India's presence on its southern border and wouldn't cry too much if the Aryans on the other side of the Himalayas decided to weed themselves down. In turn Russia would also play its part in keeping the regional conflict relatively free of outside influences - the last thing Russia wants is disorder bleeding over into unrest in its Central Asian CIS members. Having an India which has reunited the Indian subcontinent under the Hindu banner would be equally unacceptable.

Iran in turn would also welcome the opportunity to both expand its influence in the area around Iran as well as the opportunity to 'get in' with Pakistan in its hour of need.

A US-backed India would thus potentially be facing the entire rest of Central Asia and Asia, offset by only perhaps Bangladesh. Certainly it would be extremely unlikely for Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc to want to help their big and historically antagonistic neighbor.

Conflict in that region also sets back oil and gas exploration for decades, and also has serious security consequences for trade: Middle East to US, China to/from Europe, etc etc.

Let's also not forget that both Pakistan and India possess nuclear weapons.

[lektrode]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Pakistan IS the hub/fulcrum of this regional problem

Things are very exciting in LOTS of places across North Africa, Middle East, Africa......but I think Pakistan is where the biggest likely spark which lights the FIRE will come from.

Just my 0.02c

ya know... while i dont profess to be any kind of expert in these matters, eye do pay attention to them - and, after watching all you guys the past year, personally believe that altho Mr c1ue's analytical abilities are 2nd to none, that your take on all this is quite plausible - it will be very enlightening/wildly entertaining to watch as the debate unfolds - esp here on the tulip, as this issue is more than likely going to be Numero Uno for the next year.5 - if for no other reason than it IS The Big Distraction, while the US economy, the dollar at least, continues to be plundered/pillaged/flushed down the toilet for the benefit of the banksters.

[lektrode]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy, but again what little is known seems highly 'odd', at a minimum.

precisely - have begun to sense a pattern in the events of the past few years - not that i've been able turn that sense into actionable strategy, mind you - but a pattern is getting noticeable... and why is it sunday evenings seems to be a common thread?

....By all accounts the compound was not heavily guarded.

my first question immed is: who owned the compound/real estate?
surely theres records for this and the name on the deed would provide interesting details?

[flintlock]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

You lay down with dogs your'e gonna get fleas.

[World Traveler]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

I heard an interesting story around 2002-2003 from a former member of our church. We both liked to travel and used to swap travel stories.

He worked for a company that runs power plants. He was sent over To Pakistan to help negotiate the terms of a contract his company was bidding on. At one point, he was told that XYZ dollars would be allocated to a Pakistani military retirement fund as part of the contract. I think the reason he mentioned it to me was that he found it so outlandish. He said "that must be the way business is done over there".

I agree with those who say the Pakistani military and government have milked the terrorism situation to their own benefit. Keep terrorism alive and you achieve 2 goals - huge foreign aid from the U.S., while at the same time keeping number 1 enemy, India, off balance.

And a lot of U.S. aid ends up bankrolling a very comfortable lifestyle and retirement for members of the Pakistani military.

[unlucky]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

I don't know Paul Craig Roberts, but I feel that I have learned all I need to know of him from the above quoted piece. He is just a cynical man that lacks both credibility and the ability to do a simple Google search.

In a way these conspiracy theorists make the same mistake as US neo-cons; they assume that the US govt is all-powerful, and can control everything that happens in the world. Massive terrorist attacks on US soil, failure to catch the perpetrator for 10 years, and eventually "finding" the perpetrator on the soil of a so-called ally - all these must have been the deliberate choices of the US govt.

[c1ue]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Hopefully these narratives are wrong, but the crescendos are building:

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...04/147782.html

Senior Pakistani security officials said Osama bin Laden’s daughter had confirmed her father was captured alive and shot dead by the US Special Forces during the first few minutes of the operation carried out at the huge compound in Bilal Town, Abbottabad. 
 


Besides recovering four bullet-riddled bodies from the compound, Pakistani security agencies also arrested two women and six children, aged between 2 and 12 years, after American forces flew toward Afghanistan. Some reports suggest 16 people, including women and children, were arrested from the house, most of them Arab nationals.

A Pakistani security source told Al Arabiya that Bin Laden family members had been transported to Rawalpindi, which is near Islamabad. He added, “They are now under treatment in the military hospital of Rawalpindi, where they have been transported in an helicopter.” A source told Al Arabiya that Bin Laden’s had been injured either in her leg or her shoulder.

He added that the members of the household were children and Bin Laden’s wife, in addition to a Yemeni woman. He added that the woman might be the personal doctor of the family. Bin Laden was known to be afflicted with renal failure.

Sources speculated that US Forces could not arrest these family members because there weren’t enough places for them in the helicopter, after they lost another chopper during the operation.

About the slain woman: officials said she could either be Bin Laden’s wife or a close family member since she offered to sacrifice her life for him. “As per our information, she shielded Bin Laden during the operation and was killed by American commandos,” an official said.



The US Special Forces only took two bodies with them in the military chopper; one is said to be Bin Laden’s and the other his son’s. By the time Pakistani security agencies and soldiers arrived at the spot, the US commandos were flying over the mountains in the Pakistani tribal belt, well on their way to Afghanistan. 



Sources said one of the two women taken into custody from the compound by Pakistani forces was one of Osama bin Laden’s several wives.

“She is Yemeni and became unconscious during the operation,” said an official. Pleading anonymity, he said the woman was provided necessary medical aid till she became conscious. 



“During preliminary investigations, the lady said they moved to the Abbottabad house five to six months ago,” the Pakistani official said, adding that she did not provide further information about bin Laden or his shifting to the house. 



The official said a 12-year-old daughter of bin Laden was among the six children rescued from the three-storey compound.

The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members. 



According to sources, Bin Laden was staying on the ground floor of the house and was dragged on the floor to the helicopter after being shot dead by US commandos. 



There were conflicting reports about the second person the US forces took along with them. Some Pakistani officials say it was one of Bin Laden’s sons injured by the US commandos and thrown onto a separate military chopper; others say he was killed in the operation and it was only his dead body that they took along. 



The officials say not all children rescued from the house belonged to the al-Qaeda leader. All were being kept at a safe place. The US has not been given access to the detained women and children, the officials claimed. About the second woman, many officials feel she could be a close relative of Osama or his servant. 



Similarly, according to information Pakistani officials collected from detained persons, Osama was neither armed nor did inmates at the compound fire at the US choppers or commandos.

“Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the US forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot,” a well-informed official explained. 



Meanwhile, Pakistani security forces maintained a cordon around the compound and its surrounding areas and did not allow the media access to the area until the remaining wreckage of the US military chopper was removed. Some media were given access to the spot but no one was allowed to enter the compound.

The Pakistan Army has sealed two main entrances of the house and deployed military and police for its protection. 



A sizeable number of national and international journalists have arrived in Abbottabad to cover the extraordinary story. Before opening the area to the media, Pakistani soldiers shifted two buffaloes, a cow and around 150 hens from the compound to an unknown location. 



Security officials said they did not recover any arms and explosives during their detailed search of the compound on Monday and Tuesday. Also, they said, it was a simple house comprising 13 rooms, six on the ground floor and the remaining on the first and second floors.

“There was no bunker or tunnel inside the house and that’s why I don’t understand why the world’s most wanted man would have decided to live here,” a senior official said. 



He said two brothers, Arshad Khan and Tariq Khan, owned the house. Both belonged to Tangi area in Charsadda district. Officials said they had no information about the two brothers and their business. 



According to a neighbor, the dwellers of the compound never mixed with anyone.

“It was a very reserved family and never attended any wedding or funeral ceremony in the area,” said Qari Mastana Khan of Bilal Town. “But they were kindhearted and would provide clean drinking water and food to poor neighbors. During the holy month of Ramadan, they invited us for Iftar dinner at their house and served us delicious food. Arshad Khan had three kids and his brother Tariq four,” Khan added. 



Another interesting aspect, which the residents shared about the house and its inmates, was the strict behavior of the family, who in the last six years, had never allowed women of the neighborhood to enter their house or permitted their own ladies to visit neighbors. Also, children playing in the streets and nearby fields were never allowed into the compound, not even when their balls inadvertently went across. 



“Usually, when their ball falls past the wall of a house, the children just go there and pick it up but they were never allowed into this particular house. Whenever their ball fell there and the children went to retrieve it, whoever opened the door gave them money to buy a new ball instead of allowing them to enter and search for their ball,” said an elder of the area, Mohammad Fayaz. 



He said all these details made him suspicious but were not enough to make him believe the world’s most wanted man was hiding in his neighborhood.

So let me get this straight:

There were a total of 6 people killed, including 1 woman. 1 was OBL, another was OBL's son.

Perhaps the other three were security guards, or just people standing in the wrong place.

According to the above, OBL was captured alive then executed in front of his family.

Yep, all goodness and light for the law abiding, civilized side...

EDIT: The US is saying only 5 people were killed: OBL, OBL's son, a courier, the courier's wife, and the courier's brother. Doesn't jibe with Pakistan saying 4 bodies were recovered (OBL and son were taken away). OBL being unarmed was confirmed.

[D-Mack]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

“During preliminary investigations, the lady said they moved to the Abbottabad house five to six months ago,” the Pakistani official said, adding that she did not provide further information about bin Laden or his shifting to the house.

So they moved in 5-6 months ago, but the US was training for 8 months with a replica of the compound...

A full scale replica of Osama bin Laden's compound was built at Afghanistan's Bagram airbase as part of meticulous planning for the raid by US special forces.



The Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) had eight months to prepare for the raid. For much of that time US intelligence agencies were able to keep a "staring eye" continuous satellite monitoring over the fortified compound.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8490...e-picture.html

[metalman]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Hopefully these narratives are wrong, but the crescendos are building:

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...04/147782.html

So let me get this straight:

There were a total of 6 people killed, including 1 woman. 1 was OBL, another was OBL's son.

Perhaps the other three were security guards, or just people standing in the wrong place.

According to the above, OBL was captured alive then executed in front of his family.

Yep, all goodness and light for the law abiding, civilized side...

EDIT: The US is saying only 5 people were killed: OBL, OBL's son, a courier, the courier's wife, and the courier's brother. Doesn't jibe with Pakistan saying 4 bodies were recovered (OBL and son were taken away). OBL being unarmed was confirmed.

msg is... 'take credit for attack on americans & get a bullet in the head'

not sure i'm against it.

[c1ue]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

msg is... 'take credit for attack on americans & get a bullet in the head'

not sure i'm against it.

Message is: any pretense of America waging a moral war is false.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...760358,00.html

But was Sunday a good day for justice?

For years, the very principle of international law has been to pursue justice rather than war. On Sunday, Obama said that bin Laden's fate is a "testament to the greatness of our country." If the United States had used the same power it deployed during the invasion of Iraq to force tyrants such as Saddam Hussein or Moammar Gadhafi -- not to mention the mass murderer Osama bin Laden -- into the dock of an international court, one might have believed him.

Not that these events surprise me. For all the talk about "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and "equal under the law" - ultimately Americans act however they want when pissed off.

The American Indians, the Japanese of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the civilians of Tokyo and Dresden, etc etc are testament to that.

[Ghent12]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Message is: any pretense of America waging a moral war is false.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...760358,00.html

Not that these events surprise me. For all the talk about "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and "equal under the law" - ultimately Americans act however they want when pissed off.

The American Indians, the Japanese of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the civilians of Tokyo and Dresden, etc etc are testament to that.

Something about messing with the bull and getting the horns...

Also I wouldn't be too keen on judging the "moral status" of ten years of war by one event.

Then again, I would expect those living with Osama to portray that it went down in that way. I am frankly surprised that they didn't claim anything more than that, such as torture.

[c1ue]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Also I wouldn't be too keen on judging the "moral status" of ten years of war by one event.

So you're asserting then that what occurred in Abottabad was deviant from other US 'war on terror' behavior in the past 10 years?

That Guantanamo Bay is another outlier, as are hundreds to thousands, to perhaps tens and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed? Extraordinary rendition? Use of undemocratic 'allies' to perform torture?

Keep on truckin', man.

Then again, I would expect those living with Osama to portray that it went down in that way. I am frankly surprised that they didn't claim anything more than that, such as torture.

Clearly you aren't up with the news. The White House confirmed that Osama wasn't armed.

[unlucky]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

That Guantanamo Bay is another outlier, as are hundreds to thousands, to perhaps tens and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed? Extraordinary rendition? Use of undemocratic 'allies' to perform torture?

Those are all things worth fighting against. Violation of Osama Bin Laden's human rights is not worth fighting against.

[jneal3]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

Those are all things worth fighting against. Violation of Osama Bin Laden's human rights is not worth fighting against.

+1. At what point is 'respect for the rule of law' simply an intellectual exercise? Does admitting to (no, gloating over) responsibility for 3,500 civilian deaths meet the test? I may be a philistine, but to my thinking there is absolutely no slippery slope here, and no rationale to give OBL a platform through a trial.

I also think it's a good dose of Monday quarterbacking to say we shouldn't have killed him because 'he wasn't armed' - how many suicide bombers look armed? Are the SEALS supposed to risk their lives on the theory that bin Laden would never choose suicide if under attack? If I'm in the room and I see any movement in any direction at all from the guy, armed or not, to stay alive I'm going to at least entertain the possibility that he's going for a booby trap or something like it and take him out. He more than any human alive has lost the benefit of the doubt.

[metalman]

Re: Osama bin Laden dead

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