When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

[sunskyfan]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Wow. I think a button has been hit. Good. Great topic.

The "Left" did win the culture battle and is winning and has been winning for the part since the Enlightenment. That's good! Whether it is racism or sexism big taboos needed to be busted and have been. I doubt that many people would argue with this trend. Some may argue with the hybridization of the old with new, gay marriage for example, but the ones left with arguing against basic human rights are clearly loosing power over time. We might be concerned with the new privacy attacks but I think this is systemic problem not a right or left one. And, I think that is the key. We may have cultural arguments but the winner ought to be more concerned with the systemic outcomes and consequences of those victories. After all, that has been the left's argument all along is that the systemic outcomes of mixing government with religion or denying certain individuals human rights with out fair and due process brings pain to us all eventually in the systematic corruption of our common society.

I think it is pretty obvious that men have been feminized over the last 40-50 years. That is not an argument to go back and was necessary to progress. But man, ever been to American suburbia? Things have gone too far. Perhaps we should compare Sean Connery to Orlando Bloom . We have had three whipped Presidents in a row and the jury is still out on Obama though and it doesn't look good. (I think their failures can be mapped to the inability to know how to act like men in a crisis pretty quickly.) It would be folly not to consider the second order effects of this just as it would be folly not to consider the effects of putting children is day care 9 hours a day. Is that women's fault? No, but it is everyone's responsibility. How can we meet our responsibility if we don't acknowledge the issue? Would a man want to even bring that topic up in a room full of Feminist? Stifling ways of being is the goal of hate speech. Just because slang or derogatory words are not used doesn't mean that the tag doesn't apply. I agree that it might be a stretch but it is not incorrect.

I do think the author chose poorly when he used the word "violence". I think the better word would have been "force". Physically influencing your environment with purpose is ultimately the point. Sometimes that is purely by posture but often it is by act. Without a sense of honor it can lead to aggressive attempt at control or destruction which is violence.

I think ultimately the question is do we de-sex our environment? I hope not. What a boring world it would be. I do think men are lost. I actually think women are too but they are allowed to experiment and seem to be seeking a new definition. Men, seem to be servicing a defensive position proclaiming what they are not much more than what they are. Not a good place for a man to be.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Wow. I think a button has been hit. Good. Great topic.

The "Left" did win the culture battle and is winning and has been winning for the part since the Enlightenment. That's good! Whether it is racism or sexism big taboos needed to be busted and have been.

That is your opinion, and it is opinion that is not shared by the vast majority of people.

I doubt that many people would argue with this trend.

Actually, most people would disagree with them. The violent response of adherents of Islam to liberal modernity is but one example. China is working feverishly to prevent the anarchy and cultural nihilism that occurred in the West as they transition to a market economy. If anything, nearly everyone outside of the West sees what you believe is obvious to be a great danger that requires careful consideration.

Some may argue with the hybridization of the old with new, gay marriage for example, but the ones left with arguing against basic human rights are clearly loosing power over time.

See, gay marriage is actually a great example of how liberalism has reached the end. By redefining marriage in a way that is contrary to that understood by all civilized people at all time in history, even in cultures where homosexuality was tolerated, liberalism has proven that it is only functioning now to continue to legitimize its control through allowing every person to make whatever choice they wish, within the poorly defined criterion of "tolerance" and "diversity".

We may have cultural arguments but the winner ought to be more concerned with the systemic outcomes and consequences of those victories.

That is in fact the reason liberalism is doomed for failure, if the decadent nature of the West wasn't enough. It pays no homage to tradition, which in most cases has evolved because it proved to provide the stability necessary for a successful multi-generational culture. Gay marriage by contrast, is irrelevant towards that end and in fact undermines the very reason culture exists.

I do think the author chose poorly when he used the word "violence".

The thing about human nature, which liberalism ignores, is that the proclivities of the various breeds of humans and their respective genders have been understood for sometime. Cultural values exist to guide those proclivities towards a positive way. All men by nature are violent - one need merely look at the paltry number of female serial killers as proof. But is violence always bad? Certainly, the women of the not-so-distant past who were reliant upon their manfolk for food and protection did not think so.

Without a sense of honor it can lead to aggressive attempt at control or destruction which is violence.

Honor is but one way of mediating that particular aspect of human nature. One doesn't use "force" on a deer however - one uses violence.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I had to laugh here. Another wild leap. Calling people racist names is "hate speech". Praising decency, virtue or individualism isn't. Give me an example.

Hate speech laws vary from place to place, but in general they are attempts to enforce liberal dogmas via bureaucratic power, primarily because they are either against what is obvious regarding reality and thus ignored by most people or they undermine the authority of democratic regimes, which are dependent upon the fictional blank slate theory of man. But, your point is somewhat taken, the author seems to be stretching things a bit.

But not that far. Speech codes on many college campuses routinely punish people for suggesting even the most minute differences in gender exist - one need merely look at what happened to Larry Sumners for simply suggesting that women are inherently less capable at abstract thought.

In smaller ways too, we have many other more subtle attempts at enforcing liberalism that are often hypocritical.

Here he equates manhood with violence. Where do I begin? Well, violence is not the same as chivalry. Chivalry was defending the poor and downtrodden against the strong, exploitative and violent, without regard to your own life. Chivalry was forsaking material possessions and devoting your life to the service of God. These were the duties of a knight. I agree chivalry is "manly". But I don't equate chivalry with violence. I don't equate violence with manliness.

Violence is inflicting of harm upon another animal, human or otherwise. It is simply a part of life, like eating and sex. One can make particular judgments regarding all of these forms of human behavior, but in the end, the only reasonable measure is this: which values have survived the longest? Clearly, a murderous government where one could kill at will would not maintain social cohesion very long. So, it's understandable why we restrict killing. But, that doesn't mean we either do not possess violent instincts or that violence itself is always wrong. Men have evolved many special characteristics, including the obvious like blood lust, that aid them in committing violent acts. We have culture to ensure those proclivities are directed in a way that a particular group of people can continue on.

[Jay]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I'm going to go chop some wood.

[Roughneck]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Perhaps it has more to do with how our society has changed as a whole.100 years ago america was a rural country. The industrial revolution was just begining. The roles of men and women were clearly defined. Much by necessity and biological difference as it had been for ever. Men were the hunter gatherers and women were the nurturers. With the rise of the industrial age this made it easier for a woman to do a mans work. Now that we have entered the technological age it is even easier. Also with the stagnation of wages women were forced to work to maintain a standard of living.This also meant the man now had to help out with household chores. I think popular culture and the media has also changed how men are viewed.The sensitive girly man is championed and the manly man who keeps his feeling to him self is demonized. I also think that the ease of society today has made people soft. You don't have to work too hard or know to much practical stuff to survive in todays world. Our food comes pre packaged,if you can drive to the grocery you can eat.
So the question becomes in todays society what is it that makes a man a man? I guess maybe I'm old school. But I have raised three sons, all productive menbers of society and good people. I think there are certain things a man should be able to do. Like tuning up your car or at least change a tire and your own oil. Build a deck or a shed. Grow a garden and filet a fish. I taught them to be respectful,hard working but considerate of others. That a mans job is to take care of his family. That sometimes the easy thing to do is not the right thing to do. That you should turn the other cheek but some things are worth fighting for. Of course one of my sons is a nurse anesthetist, isn't that womens work;)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

So the question becomes in todays society what is it that makes a man a man?

Nah - not a proper question. It's no damn business of society what my "gender identity" is, or if I even have one. I am what I am.

[Roughneck]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Nah - not a proper question. It's no damn business of society what my "gender identity" is, or if I even have one. I am what I am.

Perhaps not. I've known quite a few men who have balls but don't act like it.

[*T*]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Perhaps it has more to do with how our society has changed as a whole.100 years ago america was a rural country. The industrial revolution was just begining. The roles of men and women were clearly defined. Much by necessity and biological difference as it had been for ever. Men were the hunter gatherers and women were the nurturers. With the rise of the industrial age this made it easier for a woman to do a mans work. Now that we have entered the technological age it is even easier. Also with the stagnation of wages women were forced to work to maintain a standard of living.This also meant the man now had to help out with household chores. I think popular culture and the media has also changed how men are viewed.The sensitive girly man is championed and the manly man who keeps his feeling to him self is demonized. I also think that the ease of society today has made people soft. You don't have to work too hard or know to much practical stuff to survive in todays world. Our food comes pre packaged,if you can drive to the grocery you can eat.
So the question becomes in todays society what is it that makes a man a man? I guess maybe I'm old school. But I have raised three sons, all productive menbers of society and good people. I think there are certain things a man should be able to do. Like tuning up your car or at least change a tire and your own oil. Build a deck or a shed. Grow a garden and filet a fish. I taught them to be respectful,hard working but considerate of others. That a mans job is to take care of his family. That sometimes the easy thing to do is not the right thing to do. That you should turn the other cheek but some things are worth fighting for. Of course one of my sons is a nurse anesthetist, isn't that womens work;)

These are good points. In the UK the big change came in the war, when the men were off fighting, the women had to 'man' the factories. Not really anything to do with any ideology, just a pragmatic necessity.

[BadJuju]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I really dislike the perception of what manliness is these days. Manliness is not measured by the amount of callouses on your hand and your ability to guzzle beer. Manliness is the opposite of childhood. It is being a responsible adult of an honorable nature that does what needs to be done.

[sunskyfan]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

TOne doesn't use "force" on a deer however - one uses violence.

You take a lot of deer out for food there on Wall Street do ya?

[flintlock]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

[Roughneck]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I can agree that society should not impose"gender identity" on someone. However, society at large has a vested interest in seeing that children are raised to be responsible,productive members of society. The family unit and the roles of parents in raising children is extremely important. You can look at the effects of the break down of the family unit on the inner city black population. 70% of the kids are born out of wedlock and most raised by single mothers. Male children raised in an environment of drugs and crime,poverty either wind up dead or in jail. The rest of society bears great costs in supporting the families the men are not providing for and of course the costs related to the crime and violence. So I would argue that we all have a vested interest in defining what is expected of a man as it relates to raising productive members of society.

It is being a responsible adult of an honorable nature that does what needs to be done.

I agree with that statement.Although I do believe it does a man good to know the value of hard work even if he doesn't do it for a living. A few calluses never hurt anyone.

[*T*]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I really dislike the perception of what manliness is these days. Manliness is not measured by the amount of callouses on your hand and your ability to guzzle beer. Manliness is the opposite of childhood. It is being a responsible adult of an honorable nature that does what needs to be done.

Time for Kipling. Not much about violence here.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

[sunskyfan]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

Kepling's poem is about self discipline and tempering a force. I do not advocate that being a man is having the privilege to use violence but being a force in one's environment is often necessary and should not be deleted but tempered and utilized. I doubt that Kepling would agree that we should be passive, inactive, and docile when faced with a challenge fattening up on corn-syrup carbs, dressing like toddlers, and dreaming of watching our heroes from a chair that is a little closer to the action than our TV.

Beating someone in the street especially as part of a mob is not being a man. Having the self-awareness, ability, and courage to stand up to such behavior and stop it with force is being a man. IF you want to call both of those acts violence you can but you miss the point if you do.

[cjppjc]

Re: When Masculine Virtues Go Out of Fashion

I really dislike the perception of what manliness is these days. Manliness is not measured by the amount of callouses on your hand and your ability to guzzle beer. Manliness is the opposite of childhood. It is being a responsible adult of an honorable nature that does what needs to be done.

It took 4 pages of nonsense before the words honorable nature were used. Masculine virtue conjurs up many images. The late John Wooden was a great man with an honorable nature, who in many ways is masculine virtue.