Vote for Obama. Here's why.

[FRED]

Thread Closed

This thread, along with the Election 2008 Forum, are a departure from our usual no-politics policy. Now that the election is over, we'd like our members to return to the primary focus of iTulip, the markets and economy.

Thank you everyone for your very thoughtful responses. Now let's figure out what this all means for our investments.

[nathanhulick]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

PythonicCow - I get the sense you are a strong Republican, and that you took offense on a George Bush rant I made in another thread.

You and I are not so far apart on our wish for a small unobtrusive goverment. But how did you reconcile your believe in a small, limited authority goverment with the big goverment, big spending goverment of the last 8 years.

I guess I'm asking you to speak as a representative of the people further right than I am. Unfair perhaps, but I am still curious.

The patriot act, unconstitutional wiretapping that violated the law, Dept of Homeland Security (doesn't that sound straight out of the USSR!), aggressive unilateral foreign policy, cronyism, and massive massive goverment spending. Massive socialization of our financial system. As they say ... privatize the gains and socialize the losses. A complete lack of interest in investigating the fraud and corruption that went on in Iraq. And nobody was accountable, when something went wrong, no one ever got fired. (Well, except for Brownie once the din got loud enough). The abandonment of the rule of law when it was inconvenient...

Didn't that drive you crazy? Or was it ok because it was done by "your" party?

See I believe, perhaps unfairly, that those who support George Bush's policies and directions would have gone absolutely crazy if Bill Clinton had instituted them. Or if Obama had been the one, then the cries of marxist would be extremely loud from the far right.

How is it you reconcile that? Or am I being unfair?
(and this isn't limited to PythonicCow, anyone else conservative that would like to take this on, please - I am truly very curious and have been for a long time)

My father is one of the 27% that still favorably views George Bush. And that's fine. But it seems to me that he at least has double standards.

You are exactly right. A large number of people, perhaps even a majority, in both parties seem to be unable to think for themselves. These people simply point across the aisle and shout, "Foul!" when someone on the other team does something they disapprove of. When it is pointed out to them that someone in their own party did the same thing, they blame a biased media, or rationalize it away somehow.

I can only imagine the response from the left had Bush been caught having sex with an intern in the White House, had numerous sex scandals, blew up a foreign embassy, traded pardons for political favors, or any of the myriad of scandals that Clinton had.

[jdv]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Fewer and fewer Americans understand the difference between (1) a limited government, formed by responsible citizens to accomplish certain tasks for the common good, within specific enumerated powers, and (2) a government that provides for and is responsible for the general well being of its subjects, providing them with various benefits misnamed as "rights".

The founding notion of America, that we all have unalienable rights, preordained by our Creator, not doled out by some government, and that governments have only limited authority, voluntarilly consented to and perhaps later withdrawn by those forming it, all seem like a quaint anachronism to what is now, clearly by this election, a majority of voting Americans.

[Insert sound of Taps playing on a lone, sad bugle ]

PythonicCow - I get the sense you are a strong Republican, and that you took offense on a George Bush rant I made in another thread.

You and I are not so far apart on our wish for a small unobtrusive goverment. But how did you reconcile your believe in a small, limited authority goverment with the big goverment, big spending goverment of the last 8 years.

I guess I'm asking you to speak as a representative of the people further right than I am. Unfair perhaps, but I am still curious.

The patriot act, unconstitutional wiretapping that violated the law, Dept of Homeland Security (doesn't that sound straight out of the USSR!), aggressive unilateral foreign policy, cronyism, and massive massive goverment spending. Massive socialization of our financial system. As they say ... privatize the gains and socialize the losses. A complete lack of interest in investigating the fraud and corruption that went on in Iraq. And nobody was accountable, when something went wrong, no one ever got fired. (Well, except for Brownie once the din got loud enough). The abandonment of the rule of law when it was inconvenient...

Didn't that drive you crazy? Or was it ok because it was done by "your" party?

See I believe, perhaps unfairly, that those who support George Bush's policies and directions would have gone absolutely crazy if Bill Clinton had instituted them. Or if Obama had been the one, then the cries of marxist would be extremely loud from the far right.

How is it you reconcile that? Or am I being unfair?
(and this isn't limited to PythonicCow, anyone else conservative that would like to take this on, please - I am truly very curious and have been for a long time)

My father is one of the 27% that still favorably views George Bush. And that's fine. But it seems to me that he at least has double standards.

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

But but what three mistakes? I can get as far as guessing that you are numbering Obama as mistake Number 3, but what are you numbering (or think I am numbering) as mistakes Numbers 1 and 2 ?

Thought that was obvious: the past 2 elections of course...since you said "I watch people. I know him. America just made a serious mistake."
What you guys ever saw in Bush jr. I'll never understand, especially vs Gore in 2000

[tombat1913]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Labasta

200 years? I think you are speaking of slavery which “ended” in 1865 and that is 143 yrs ago.

Jim Crow "ended" around 1965 that is 43 years ago. That isn’t even a generation ago on that count. Don't forget about segregation, white only establishments, white citizens terrorizing black citizens because of race etc. This was not 200 yrs ago. Wasn't it in the 90s that a black man was tied to a back of a pickup truck in Texas and drug until his head came off? All because he was black. So no, this institutionalized racism and social inequality is not 200 yrs in the past.

Last year a black journalist Leonardo Blair was pulled over and arrested in the Bronx NYC for NOTHING. He was only released when he stated he worked for the Post.

I should add, I am black by the way (fathers family from w. Africa and mothers family is Afro American). Growing up in Brooklyn I had a friend who was shot in the face over some argument. They were about 9 blocks away from Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. A mutual friend of ours picks the guy up, and runs with him to the hospital. Cops stop the guy who is carrying our friend, asks them what is going on etc. I swear to God, the cops picked my friends up, took them further away from the hospital and said "get out". My friend was not able to make it to the hospital in time and as a result, he died. PLENTY of stories like this in NYC, heck in Florida too where I now live as well.

Again, I am sure many here who didn't grow up in these kinds of conditions may think these stories may seem a bit farfetched or whatever and that’s ok. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe or understand things that they don't have firsthand experience with. My point is, things are not, nor have they ever been 100% equal in America. Not socially, not economically, not racially. I do believe 100% that there is nothing stopping you regardless of race, creed or color from realizing whatever dream you want to accomplish NOW days though.

The problem among Blacks and Latinos is, they have become "institutionalized" for a lack of a better word. When we have a society with a distant and recent history as disproportionate in equality among races as ours, it becomes a part the society’s fabric. The conditions and behavior of those on the bottom rung then becomes self perpetuating. It will take GENERATIONS to get away from this stuff on BOTH sides of the fence (racism on one side and extreme apathy on the other).

But this is not unique to African Americans. You go to UK and the Pakistanis and Jamaicans are running the gangs and selling drugs and being under achievers. You go to Australia it’s the Lebanese. You go to France and it’s the W. Africans and A'rabs and on and on it goes. Whenever you have segments of ANY population that are marginalized there will be social consequences that come with that.

Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now. It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step. We didn't get to this point over night; where in a black man could become president. It took lynchings, it took beatings, and it took water hoses. It took Abner Louima, it took Ahmado Diallo and took marches, it took vigils and countless other events to take place, but we are finally here.

I would also like to add one other thing. Let’s not paint all African Americans with one brush. One thing I have noticed from immigrants (especially seeing as I have many in my family). They seem to dismiss African American achievements. If it was not for Africans Americans and their struggles for equality in this country Indians, Arabs, Africans and Latinos would not have the rights they have today. Given all the crap African Americans have had to endure for such a prolonged period of time, you have to admit they have come a LONG way.

I am from the junction in Flatbush Brooklyn (ask someone from Brooklyn about that area). I grew up with gang members, drug dealers and the like. I have myself dabbled in street life in my younger years. But something snapped in me one day (won’t get into that) and I went to college, I now have three degrees. I worked for some of America's top companies and accomplished a lot. I have a cousin who was shot in his back when he was 15 (he is 34 now). He is now a quadriplegic. He took the tragedy of that and now owns his own business lecturing at risk kids and counseling kids on how to properly deal with disputes. He also came out of the inner city (Bushwick Brooklyn) and also came from a time period where he dabbled in street life. However we overcame and persevered. But we also saw firsthand what inner city life can do to a person. I grew up with one friend who was dyslexic but because of poor school systems he didn't get any help. As a teacher I met a Puerto Rican kid. The interesting thing about this boy was, he couldn't read much at all. He was 15 years old and was on the reading level of a 4 year old. How the hell was he advanced through the school system?

So no, things are not equal, NO it was not 200 years ago and no, it is not easy to overcome a situation where you have multiple obstacles against you. It can be done, I am living proof of that but it takes a lot of will power, belief and determination. Heck, it took me cutting off almost EVERY childhood friendship I had and going my own way to make it to where I am now. How many people have the will power to do that though? As I said, Obama's presidency is a HUGE step in breaking down the mental and social conditions that helped to foster some of these mentalities we are discussing, but we still have a LONG way to go.

P.S. I also should add, that I HOPE it shows people that if you want better schools, you want better conditions then get out there, organize, get grass roots movements going, band together. Students did this in NYC a few years back. They marched on Manhattan to protest the horrible conditions of the schools they are in. One girl showed some of the text books they are given. The books have dozens of pages missing and she said it’s impossible to learn from them. I can attest first hand that this was a wide spread problem in NYC (not sure if it still is). But those youngsters stood together to make a change. Much the same way Obama’s movement taped into the grass roots. I just hope he can deliver on his promise of ending all this corruption and what not. I also think Obama’s win is one step closer to EJ’s economic predictions coming true (hat tip to Mr. Jenszen.)

I liked your post, and I absolutely agree that the racism isn't gone and the playing field isn't level. However, about the grassroots philosophy I don't think Obama applies. The biggest grassroots campaign in history was for Ron Paul bar none. The Obama campaign has been well funded by powerful people and has been nicely packaged at an opportune time when anti-Republican sentiment is maxed out.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now.

Good post - you describe the above hope, and the reasons for it, well.

It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step.

I predict that your hopes will not be realized.

The socialism, drifting progressively toward Marxism, that Obama's puppet masters stand for is what destroys people's own initiative. The rot, racial and other, that we have in some of our failed cities, such as Detroit and New Orleans, and in failed neighborhoods of many other cities, will extend over greater swaths of America.

Obama is relatively safe from assassination risk, for the reason that he will do the bidding of the Money Masters (JPMorgan/Fed/Treasury/Goldman/CFR/...), as guided by his financial advisors such as Rubin and Volker, and socialist advisors such as Ayers.

You will be glad to learn (or perhaps not) that I restocked my aluminum foil supply ths morning, and my conspiracy theory generating machine is back in full working order again. :rolleyes:.

I now suspect that the "October Surprise" that got Obama elected was the financial collapse of this year, engineered in part by the afore mentioned Money Masters. Directly (such as via JPMorgan, the largest holder of swaps and derivatives) or indirectly (such as via AIG, the largest "insurer", meaning largest counter-party, in swaps, who is now controlled by Treasury), and further with their direct control over LIBOR (which is simply a reporting to London of unverifiable statistics by the Money Masters) and the Baltic Dry Index (BDI, which failed when letters of credit were not honored by these same Money Masters), JPMorgan and friends had all the means necessary at their disposal to engineer this panic. They built this house of financial swaps and securitized bad debt paper provided by their good friends over at Fannie and Freddie, mostly over the last eight years. Now it was time to pull a couple cards out from the foundation and collect the bets of the other players foolish enough to be in this rigged game.

The timing of events under the control of JPMorgan and associates, the Money Masters, over the last nine months which led to the victory of Obama seems too well done to be just an accident. Follow the money; follow the timing. The Financial Panic of 2008 got Obama elected, it got a bigger debt burden (the means of our enslavement) placed on the backs of the American taxpayer, and it consolidated more financial power into the hands of the few.

Ayers "married" Morgan, delivering the illegitimate child Obama up as a useful pawn, dressed up in a Presidents Halloween costume. The interests of the Marxists and Money Masters are joined, both seeking a bigger, more intrusive, Federal government.

There will be depressing economic times in the next two years, as there was in 1933-34, with similar affect, that being another New Deal, with its alphabet soup of socalist programs. Somewhat more behind the scenes, the Bankers Reconsolidation Act of 2008 will continue, as JPMorgan and associates destroy or consume more of America's banking system, perhaps partially disguised as Treasury taking more control of JPMorgan (which will enable dumping the overflowing JPMorgan 'Garbage Can' of toxic waste financial paper on the backs of the American taxpayer) and CitiGroup (destroying whatever independent power Citi still had.)

... hmmm ... that was an especially good batch of tin foil ... I should go back to that same store now and buy whatever remains of it on the shelf.

[nathanhulick]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

You certainly know Europe better than I. :rolleyes:
If you had proposed to send us Bush,
I would have been offended.
I'll gladly accept Obama.
As long as"they" don't shoot him like JFK,
with a bullet shot from a 7-th floor but
entering horizontally, plus another one,
always shot from behind, but striking
full front. :cool:
Only in America.
Or as long as "they" don't do him like RFK,
with a bullet shot by Shirhan from 16 feets,
but creating a wound in the nape, with traces
of powder from another caliber. :confused:
Only in America.
As De Gaulle said to the US ambassador "explaining"
to him : "A lone nut, Mr. President", the french great
man, knowing a bit about assassination plots for
having narrowly escaped two of them, replied :
"Mister Ambassador, please, I beg you, your stories
of cow-boys and Indians, not to me. This was a
plot from high up !"
So, let's hope, no more magic stories of magic bullets…

Fox Mulder? I didnt know you posted here!

[whatnow]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

I agree with your sentiments. Honestly the only thing I fear from an Obama presidency is the possiblitly of using his charisma to make war palatable to the entire country. I don't believe him one bit on his Iraq plans. Responsible phased withdrawal? I guess Saigon '75 could have been considered the last phase of a withdrawal!

[hellstan]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Hopefully, a strong Obama potion against BDS should cure part of the diseased… But the cure should be painful. We should save most of the cows too.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Serious mistakes..

But but what three mistakes? I can get as far as guessing that you are numbering Obama as mistake Number 3, but what are you numbering (or think I am numbering) as mistakes Numbers 1 and 2 ?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

And what about a falsely repentant falsely ex-alcoholic president being manipulated by an overpowering vice-president, and being elected against
the will of the people, and after a massive electoral fraud in a main southern state ?

The "Bush Derangement Syndrome" (BDS) is strong in you.

I see black and white; you see white and black.

I see up and down; you see down and up.

I see left and right; you see right and left.

I see truth and lies; you see lies and truth.

I doubt that there is any hope for a useful discussion between us, for it is a logical certainty that at least one of the two of us is confused beyond all recall.

[hellstan]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

At least right now, the foreign response to Obama seems positive. That suggests a greater amount of faith that the US just decreased the chances it will do something really dumb internationally.

"seems positive" : that's an understatement. People here are absolutely thrilled to get rid of a fake US
and hopefully to be confronted again with an America they could (partially, at least) listen, approve or follow.
And that is already a sea change.

BTW, a noble Republican, among many :
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...l.reaction.cnn

[BrianL]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

I don't think you can be elected president of the US in this climate without statements like that. America is still in a protectionist mindset. A leader who internally expresses any weakness will get eaten alive.

At least right now, the foreign response to Obama seems positive. That suggests a greater amount of faith that the US just decreased the chances it will do something really dumb internationally.

Again, what will matter are his actions. This is just like a buisness hiring a new employee. The interview went well and we made an offer. Unfortunately there is no way to know 100% how well the new hire can execute until you've had a chance to watch them at work for a while.

[hellstan]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Spoken like a true kool-aid drinking European Liberal. In 4 years we will trade you Obama for a six pack of beer, and it doesnt even have to be cold.

You certainly know Europe better than I. :rolleyes:
If you had proposed to send us Bush,
I would have been offended.
I'll gladly accept Obama.
As long as"they" don't shoot him like JFK,
with a bullet shot from a 7-th floor but
entering horizontally, plus another one,
always shot from behind, but striking
full front. :cool:
Only in America.
Or as long as "they" don't do him like RFK,
with a bullet shot by Shirhan from 16 feets,
but creating a wound in the nape, with traces
of powder from another caliber. :confused:
Only in America.
As De Gaulle said to the US ambassador "explaining"
to him : "A lone nut, Mr. President", the french great
man, knowing a bit about assassination plots for
having narrowly escaped two of them, replied :
"Mister Ambassador, please, I beg you, your stories
of cow-boys and Indians, not to me. This was a
plot from high up !"
So, let's hope, no more magic stories of magic bullets…

[Wild Style]

Re: Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Labasta

200 years? I think you are speaking of slavery which “ended” in 1865 and that is 143 yrs ago.

Jim Crow "ended" around 1965 that is 43 years ago. That isn’t even a generation ago on that count. Don't forget about segregation, white only establishments, white citizens terrorizing black citizens because of race etc. This was not 200 yrs ago. Wasn't it in the 90s that a black man was tied to a back of a pickup truck in Texas and drug until his head came off? All because he was black. So no, this institutionalized racism and social inequality is not 200 yrs in the past.

Last year a black journalist Leonardo Blair was pulled over and arrested in the Bronx NYC for NOTHING. He was only released when he stated he worked for the Post.

I should add, I am black by the way (fathers family from w. Africa and mothers family is Afro American). Growing up in Brooklyn I had a friend who was shot in the face over some argument. They were about 9 blocks away from Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. A mutual friend of ours picks the guy up, and runs with him to the hospital. Cops stop the guy who is carrying our friend, asks them what is going on etc. I swear to God, the cops picked my friends up, took them further away from the hospital and said "get out". My friend was not able to make it to the hospital in time and as a result, he died. PLENTY of stories like this in NYC, heck in Florida too where I now live as well.

Again, I am sure many here who didn't grow up in these kinds of conditions may think these stories may seem a bit farfetched or whatever and that’s ok. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe or understand things that they don't have firsthand experience with. My point is, things are not, nor have they ever been 100% equal in America. Not socially, not economically, not racially. I do believe 100% that there is nothing stopping you regardless of race, creed or color from realizing whatever dream you want to accomplish NOW days though.

The problem among Blacks and Latinos is, they have become "institutionalized" for a lack of a better word. When we have a society with a distant and recent history as disproportionate in equality among races as ours, it becomes a part the society’s fabric. The conditions and behavior of those on the bottom rung then becomes self perpetuating. It will take GENERATIONS to get away from this stuff on BOTH sides of the fence (racism on one side and extreme apathy on the other).

But this is not unique to African Americans. You go to UK and the Pakistanis and Jamaicans are running the gangs and selling drugs and being under achievers. You go to Australia it’s the Lebanese. You go to France and it’s the W. Africans and A'rabs and on and on it goes. Whenever you have segments of ANY population that are marginalized there will be social consequences that come with that.

Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now. It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step. We didn't get to this point over night; where in a black man could become president. It took lynchings, it took beatings, and it took water hoses. It took Abner Louima, it took Ahmado Diallo and took marches, it took vigils and countless other events to take place, but we are finally here.

I would also like to add one other thing. Let’s not paint all African Americans with one brush. One thing I have noticed from immigrants (especially seeing as I have many in my family). They seem to dismiss African American achievements. If it was not for Africans Americans and their struggles for equality in this country Indians, Arabs, Africans and Latinos would not have the rights they have today. Given all the crap African Americans have had to endure for such a prolonged period of time, you have to admit they have come a LONG way.

I am from the junction in Flatbush Brooklyn (ask someone from Brooklyn about that area). I grew up with gang members, drug dealers and the like. I have myself dabbled in street life in my younger years. But something snapped in me one day (won’t get into that) and I went to college, I now have three degrees. I worked for some of America's top companies and accomplished a lot. I have a cousin who was shot in his back when he was 15 (he is 34 now). He is now a quadriplegic. He took the tragedy of that and now owns his own business lecturing at risk kids and counseling kids on how to properly deal with disputes. He also came out of the inner city (Bushwick Brooklyn) and also came from a time period where he dabbled in street life. However we overcame and persevered. But we also saw firsthand what inner city life can do to a person. I grew up with one friend who was dyslexic but because of poor school systems he didn't get any help. As a teacher I met a Puerto Rican kid. The interesting thing about this boy was, he couldn't read much at all. He was 15 years old and was on the reading level of a 4 year old. How the hell was he advanced through the school system?

So no, things are not equal, NO it was not 200 years ago and no, it is not easy to overcome a situation where you have multiple obstacles against you. It can be done, I am living proof of that but it takes a lot of will power, belief and determination. Heck, it took me cutting off almost EVERY childhood friendship I had and going my own way to make it to where I am now. How many people have the will power to do that though? As I said, Obama's presidency is a HUGE step in breaking down the mental and social conditions that helped to foster some of these mentalities we are discussing, but we still have a LONG way to go.

P.S. I also should add, that I HOPE it shows people that if you want better schools, you want better conditions then get out there, organize, get grass roots movements going, band together. Students did this in NYC a few years back. They marched on Manhattan to protest the horrible conditions of the schools they are in. One girl showed some of the text books they are given. The books have dozens of pages missing and she said it’s impossible to learn from them. I can attest first hand that this was a wide spread problem in NYC (not sure if it still is). But those youngsters stood together to make a change. Much the same way Obama’s movement taped into the grass roots. I just hope he can deliver on his promise of ending all this corruption and what not. I also think Obama’s win is one step closer to EJ’s economic predictions coming true (hat tip to Mr. Jenszen.)