Trump to win?

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

Yeah, against the students and the antiwar movement. Please, SF. You're better off just leaving it alone instead of playing this silly revisionism game.

https://youtu.be/hR8Q1JPQjwk?t=49m52s

Um, we were talking about what level of sacrifice it takes to create change. The aftermath at Kent State is part of that payment. You should go sailing Woody.

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

You make my point for me. After 5-6 years of protests, National Guardsman shot 67 rounds into a group of students protesting the Vietnam war. Four were killed, 9 wounded. After that the tide of public opinion changed...

Yeah, against the students and the antiwar movement. Please, SF. You're better off just leaving it alone instead of playing this silly revisionism game.

https://youtu.be/hR8Q1JPQjwk?t=49m52s

Man: "It was easy to see that the movement was fragmented, co-opted, turned inside out, and that the things we were dissenting about, we lost."

Woman: "I realized totally how little in the actual equation of the world the students in America were. We did all the things we knew how to do. And then nothing happened."

Man: "The government forces got what they wanted. Because basically, if you can shoot students and get away with it...you know...kids learn their lesson."

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

Thanks. We'll be sure to bring that up for consideration at the next meeting.

You make my point for me. After 5-6 years of protests, National Guardsman shot 67 rounds into a group of students protesting the Vietnam war. Four were killed, 9 wounded. After that the tide of public opinion changed.
With Occupy, apparently pepper spray and a punch in the nose was enough to make the protestors go home. False equivalence?

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

Too bad we can't vote for someone actually on the left rather than someone that might move left if millions protest for years.

You can, Jill Stein is a fine candidate.

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

Sure you can; just vote for the Green party or write in Bernie Sanders. You'll never see a pure left or pure right candidate on either major party ticket. 70% or more of the public will never vote left or right. That's why candidates try to move to the center to win the independents.

[LazyBoy]

Re: Trump to win?

It's much more important to let HRC and her people know that the Sanders platform she's adopted is important. If the Sanders supporters give up now, it will be a horrible mistake. No one else has been able to work within the system and get the powerful to take notice in the last 50+ years.

I don't believe you read my post. I did not say HRC is moving left, she must be made to adopt the platform through continued non-violent political and social action. If the left really wants to limit US foreign adventures over the next four years, it will take protest. Millions of people have to care enough to make any of these changes possible.

Too bad we can't vote for someone actually on the left rather than someone that might move left if millions protest for years.

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

You kids and your need for instant gratification....See Emancipation Proclamation to Voting Rights Act to understand what is required. You can't occupy Wall Street for a year or so and give up. Even the protests against Vietnam had to go on until the war ended. As for Trump winning...seems unlikely but anything can happen.

Thanks. We'll be sure to bring that up for consideration at the next meeting.

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

And of course you recommend the left to protest. Look how effective the worldwide protests leading up to the Iraq War were, never mind the protests before, during and after the DNC convention. As long as the left is marching, chanting, they can be safely ignored. But, God, just please don't let them vote their interests. I think that's pretty much done, don't you?

You kids and your need for instant gratification....See Emancipation Proclamation to Voting Rights Act to understand what is required. You can't occupy Wall Street for a year or so and give up. Even the protests against Vietnam had to go on until the war ended.

As for Trump winning...seems unlikely but anything can happen.

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

http://www.mediaite.com/print/ny-tim...clinton-gaffe/

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

But you do have this evidence of attacks on Republicans at campaign events:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...outside-rally/

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/r...entral-Pa.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqS_wXLZhnw

And wackos on the right attack Bernie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCYvGaODGQ


There are nut cases on both sides of the political spectrum, and there is ample evidence as I posted above. It took me two seconds to find this on google.

We have a very biased propaganda, oops I mean press,on both sides of the political arena. We are divided and have little hope of finding common ground with these two unfortunate choices we are left with.

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

The reason the Democratic platform remains largely unchanged from the Obama years with regard to defense is precisely because Sanders is only slightly left of HRC in this area.

With regard to Wall Street, I prefer voting for a party that will state in their platform, (see pg 11), that Wall Street must be reigned in and that trade deals must benefit American workers, (see pg 13).

I don't believe you read my post. I did not say HRC is moving left, she must be made to adopt the platform through continued non-violent political and social action. If the left really wants to limit US foreign adventures over the next four years, it will take protest. Millions of people have to care enough to make any of these changes possible.

If Sanders supporters just go back to work after the election, not much will change and it will be Obama term three. It's not the best outcome but as you know, I don't think that's the worst outcome.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf

Read every word, but forgive me if I don't do the same for the link you provided.

You assert that she has adopted "the Sanders platform." If one adopts the Sanders platform, that necessitates moving left. I reject the assertion that she is doing either.

SF, this is pure revisionism, with a bit of gaslighting for entertainment value. First the commissar walks beside Stalin, next he is made to disappear.



Sanders wants to cut defense spending and HRC wants raise it. HRC wants to expand the wars, Sanders wants to end them. Hillary takes millions from Wall Street and is Wall Street's candidate, but she want to reign it in. Hillary supports the TPP, but helped write it and wants trade deals to benefit workers.

And of course you recommend the left to protest. Look how effective the worldwide protests leading up to the Iraq War were, never mind the protests before, during and after the DNC convention. As long as the left is marching, chanting, they can be safely ignored. But, God, just please don't let them vote their interests. I think that's pretty much done, don't you?

Get ready for President Trump.

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

I think you know the value of these man on the streets interviews. The interviewer begins with an end in mind and leads people to say what it is s/he wants said. And after some editing, voila!

I absolutely could create a video like this at a Hillary event, or any event anywhere, really. Time and editing is all it takes.

I hope folks will be less credulous of this sort of stuff, but I doubt it. And good luck finding a non-biased general news source.

the video clips were NOT interviews. thus there is no potential bias from leading questions. i still doubt you could "create a video like this at a hillary event": naturalistic footage, no interviewing, just observation. again, if you are aware of any documentation to support your assertion, please point it out.

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

actually i DON'T think you could make a video that extreme at a hillary event...

I think you know the value of these man on the streets interviews. The interviewer begins with an end in mind and leads people to say what it is s/he wants said. And after some editing, voila!

I absolutely could create a video like this at a Hillary event, or any event anywhere, really. Time and editing is all it takes.

I hope folks will be less credulous of this sort of stuff, but I doubt it. And good luck finding a non-biased general news source.

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

And you don't think one could make such a video at a Hillary event? You haven't heard the hysterics pointed at Trump and his supporters?

actually i DON'T think you could make a video that extreme at a hillary event. to my knowledge, although hillary supporters may compare trump to hitler, they don't commonly call for his incarceration, let alone his execution. nor am i aware of epithets more extreme than "fascist" which, although extreme, is not quite at the level of hatefulness as the "nigger" slur hurled at the mention of obama.

if you know of behavior at this level occurring at hillary rallies, i'd like to see links documenting it.

this is not to defend the ny times - i do not think it is unbiased; i don't trust its reporting. but that fact that the video was compiled by a biased source doesn't mean it's wrong; it just means that it may be unbalanced. do you think the video was staged by the times? or do you really believe that a hillary rally would be comparable? if so, again, i'd appreciate pointers to the documentation.

if anyone here knows of a general news source that they consider unbiased, i would appreciate hearing about it.

btw, this is not to be construed as expressing any love for hillary. i am in fact famous within my family for how much i've despised her since the early-mid 1990's. give the unfortunate choice with which we are faced this year, however, i reluctantly prefer her.

[santafe2]

Re: Trump to win?

You know what else is a joke, the assertion that Clinton is moving left and adopting the Sanders platform....Asserting that Clinton is moving left toward Sander's voters is magical thinking at best. Nothing in the campaign and the post-primary supports this belief. They are on opposite sides o[f] the war, trade, the banks and Wall Street.

Sanders remains antiwar, Hillary a pro-war neocon.

The reason the Democratic platform remains largely unchanged from the Obama years with regard to defense is precisely because Sanders is only slightly left of HRC in this area.

With regard to Wall Street, I prefer voting for a party that will state in their platform, (see pg 11), that Wall Street must be reigned in and that trade deals must benefit American workers, (see pg 13).

I don't believe you read my post. I did not say HRC is moving left, she must be made to adopt the platform through continued non-violent political and social action. If the left really wants to limit US foreign adventures over the next four years, it will take protest. Millions of people have to care enough to make any of these changes possible.

If Sanders supporters just go back to work after the election, not much will change and it will be Obama term three. It's not the best outcome but as you know, I don't think that's the worst outcome.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/117717.pdf