PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

You could look no further in argument, than the Australian Aboriginal - True stone age peoples who were hunter/gatherers (No crops, domesticated food animals, Metal implements or Alcohol of any sort. A great nation of people who relied solely on "mother nature" for life and provision. Guess what - no obesity no health issues (other than natural aging). Today, those that eat a western diet suffer diabetics and obesity at such high rates that life expectancy is 26 years lower than Australian average. Amazingly the few who maintain the old ways live without diabetics and obesity and life expectancy rises to close behind the Australian norm (that can be explained by lack of remote health care).
There is something to be said for basic unprocessed food, fresh fish, and natural meat lightly cooked and irregular fasting. I was grossly over weight with high blood pressure and related health issues which cost me a small fortune in medication. I changed my diet to one very similar the indigenous some 15 months ago (alcohol yes but in small amounts) Now 70 lbs lighter -45% reduction, 8 inches less waist, Blood pressure at 55years 117/75- 30% reduction (unheard of at that age) super low cholesterol -65% reduction. All on two meals a day most days. Fasting really is only irregular meal times as I eat only when hungry To be honest I miss Beer, pizza hut, ice cream cakes, bread, biscuits, the can opener, 11 of 13 rows in the supermarket and prescription medicines/doctors fees.
My conclusion is that it has merit based not only on the results without effort but as logic dictates it follows natural principles.

Thanks for relating that. You've got it down cold. Any diet without grains and especially without refined sugars and starches will do the heavy lifting. Glad to hear these great results.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

You could look no further in argument, than the Australian Aboriginal - True stone age peoples who were hunter/gatherers (No crops, domesticated food animals, Metal implements or Alcohol of any sort. A great nation of people who relied solely on "mother nature" for life and provision. Guess what - no obesity no health issues (other than natural aging). Today, those that eat a western diet suffer diabetics and obesity at such high rates that life expectancy is 26 years lower than Australian average. Amazingly the few who maintain the old ways live without diabetics and obesity and life expectancy rises to close behind the Australian norm (that can be explained by lack of remote health care).
There is something to be said for basic unprocessed food, fresh fish, and natural meat lightly cooked and irregular fasting. I was grossly over weight with high blood pressure and related health issues which cost me a small fortune in medication. I changed my diet to one very similar the indigenous some 15 months ago (alcohol yes but in small amounts) Now 70 lbs lighter -45% reduction, 8 inches less waist, Blood pressure at 55years 117/75- 30% reduction (unheard of at that age) super low cholesterol -65% reduction. All on two meals a day most days. Fasting really is only irregular meal times as I eat only when hungry To be honest I miss Beer, pizza hut, ice cream cakes, bread, biscuits, the can opener, 11 of 13 rows in the supermarket and prescription medicines/doctors fees.
My conclusion is that it has merit based not only on the results without effort but as logic dictates it follows natural principles.

[swgprop]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Dude - forget all that complicated sounding stuff. Eat starches very sparingly, but don't turn into an absolute Calvinist about this self denial. Eat the meats you like also sparingly. Two or max three times per week (three days a week is already high). Eat tons of fresh vegetables (cruciferous are the most potent for warding the nasty illnesses) and eat modest but frequent amounts of nuts and berries and modest amounts of fruit. Drink the wine you like and drink that glass or two with a feeling of gusto for life. Get lots of exercise. Whenever you feel weakening will power to go eat something sinful, chomp down some more vegetables, steamed or raw. Find dressings for raw vegetables that tease your palate just enough so you train yourself to keep eating them. Lightly steamed is perfect too. You can have a tiny piece of meat with every meal also, so that it's gravy lacing all the vegetables tricks your palate into believing you are eating a hearty meat meal every day. I like meat, and this trick really work to tease your appetite for more vegetables. Your immune system will become a fortress, you'll lose weight, your wife or girlfriend will regard you as sexy, and you will have put the entire topic of wise nutrition to bed. End of story. IMO all these incredibly sophisticated dietary analyes are produced by doctors yearning to make their mark in publishing and establish a brand name for themselves.

Awesome. And when is your book coming out?

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Jimmygu3 - don't forget to recommend meat and or eggs consumption every day to your father, when he gets into his seventies. Man was born to eat plenty of meat, so it must be good for the elderly folks too, right?

First, thanks to rogermexico for posting this. Makes sense to me. I'm trying to explain to my wife and kids that humans are not "supposed to be" vegetarians. Not that you can't eat that way, just that animal protein has been a part of our diet for hundreds of thousands of years.

Second, I didn't know jk was a doctor! You hang out here a couple years you start to pick up stuff. However I would argue that post-child-rearing natural selection is possible. For example, a man may be less likely to father a child with a woman whose mother is unhealthy, concerned that she will in time be in the same condition as the mother. Healthy and attractive older people can have a positive impact on their offsprings' passing of their genes.

Jimmy

70's study -- in South Asians

Incidence of diabetes

Rural South Asians 4%
Urban South Asians 12%
South Asians in the US and UK 35%

Diet very similar except more meat and dairy for South Asians in the US and UK

So what is the difference between the three cohorts?

Degree of cooking and processing of the carbohydrates and legumes!!

Think amylase and sucrase inhibitors that get denatured by cooking and processing!

[jimmygu3]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

interesting. thanks for posting. i'm curious about your insulin-level theory of aging in relation to the calorie restriction data. do you see this is as opposed to, or complementing, the sirtuin theory?

btw, the same hypoinsulinemic benefit can be attained with a very different diet, albeit with some overlaps in the recommendation, that of joel furhman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Fuhrman


i suppose we could make this an evolution-based theory by asking whether or when our distant ancestors were very good hunters, and when in the evolutionary past they were by necessity more vegetarian.

i find your discussion of insulin far more appealing scientifically than arguments based on history, i.e. what diet we evolved with. it reminds me of discussions i sometimes have with older female patients about the pros and cons of hormone supplementation.

they'll sometimes say "it's not natural," to which i reply that there is nothing natural about a menopausal woman, in 2 senses. first, most of our ancestors didn't live that long. second, evolution doesn't care about the old - there is no selection pressure to optimize or improve the health of individuals beyond the time of having and raising progeny. so, health-wise, once we've passed the age of child rearing, we're on our own; we can't appeal to arguments based on what's "natural" or what evolution did or didn't do.

First, thanks to rogermexico for posting this. Makes sense to me. I'm trying to explain to my wife and kids that humans are not "supposed to be" vegetarians. Not that you can't eat that way, just that animal protein has been a part of our diet for hundreds of thousands of years.

Second, I didn't know jk was a doctor! You hang out here a couple years you start to pick up stuff. However I would argue that post-child-rearing natural selection is possible. For example, a man may be less likely to father a child with a woman whose mother is unhealthy, concerned that she will in time be in the same condition as the mother. Healthy and attractive older people can have a positive impact on their offsprings' passing of their genes.

Jimmy

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

We are obviously on the same page Rajiv. Eat like a rural South Asian and forget the rest of the Sturm Und Drang. I haven't had a cold in four years, but I do have Roger suggesting ominously that I am likely a borderline hyperglycemic.

70's study -- in South Asians

Incidence of diabetes

Rural South Asians 4%
Urban South Asians 12%
South Asians in the US and UK 35%

Diet very similar except more meat and dairy for South Asians in the US and UK

So what is the difference between the three cohorts?

Degree of cooking and processing of the carbohydrates and legumes!!

Think amylase and sucrase inhibitors that get denatured by cooking and processing!

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Dude - forget all that complicated sounding stuff. Eat starches very sparingly, but don't turn into an absolute Calvinist about this self denial. Eat the meats you like also sparingly. Two or max three times per week (three days a week is already high). Eat tons of fresh vegetables (cruciferous are the most potent for warding the nasty illnesses) and eat modest but frequent amounts of nuts and berries and modest amounts of fruit. Drink the wine you like and drink that glass or two with a feeling of gusto for life. Get lots of exercise. Whenever you feel weakening will power to go eat something sinful, chomp down some more vegetables, steamed or raw. Find dressings for raw vegetables that tease your palate just enough so you train yourself to keep eating them. Lightly steamed is perfect too. You can have a tiny piece of meat with every meal also, so that it's gravy lacing all the vegetables tricks your palate into believing you are eating a hearty meat meal every day. I like meat, and this trick really work to tease your appetite for more vegetables. Your immune system will become a fortress, you'll lose weight, your wife or girlfriend will regard you as sexy, and you will have put the entire topic of wise nutrition to bed. End of story. IMO all these incredibly sophisticated dietary analyes are produced by doctors yearning to make their mark in publishing and establish a brand name for themselves.

Luke you are unique in many ways, intellectually obviously, but more relevant to this thread you've had the advantage of world travel and cultural observation. You've adopted a dietary regimen based on that.

Sadly J6P and the missus haven't been outside of Kansas in since, umm, forever, thus they've not been presented with the gift of evolved learning from other lands. Instead, they are presented with the USDA food pyramid, school lunch programs, an ever changing (and almost always wrong) doctrine from the medical community (lipid hypothesis as an example).

Given that as a foundation it's no wonder that America is FAT and looking for a solution. Sadly we look for the simplest path: a diet pill, a fad, something that turns fat into runny anal leakage. In that cycle we have a market for diet/nutrition books. Some good, some bad.

As I stated earlier in this thread I found The Great Cholesterol Con to be enlightening. And Roger mentioned Taubes whose Good Calories, Bad Calories is on my "to read" list. And frankly if I can figure out who Rogermexico is I might read his as well.

Because I might just learn something as I've not had the privilege of travelling the world and learning first hand as you have.

Cheers.

[Rajiv]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

70's study -- in South Asians

Incidence of diabetes

Rural South Asians 4%
Urban South Asians 12%
South Asians in the US and UK 35%

Diet very similar except more meat and dairy for South Asians in the US and UK

So what is the difference between the three cohorts?

Degree of cooking and processing of the carbohydrates and legumes!!

Think amylase and sucrase inhibitors that get denatured by cooking and processing!

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Grandma's homespun "eat your veggies" advice is running a close second to Roger's exhortations to get on a sophisticated and faddish Paleo-Diet. Eating lots of vegetables, especially the cruciferous ones, is a huge bullet against all kinds of illnessl, especially the most severe illnesses. It is BULKY, so you can stuff yourself with it to relieve hunger, yet it contributeds many less calories to your bodyweight. It is a simple, in fact, exceedingly simple way to gain robust good health and lose weight at the same time. Of course, this would be exceedingly boring as a topic to write a whole book about.

Thanks for posting this.

I discovered this same way of eating more than a decade ago. I've been an on-and-off practitioner of it for years.

My experience in talking with others about this way of eating is that they assume "no grains" only leaves meat and other high-protein foods. In fact, I ate that way myself for a while. It was a mistake. They key is to combine eating the right fats with eating low glycemic index foods -- which includes nutrient-rich vegetables. For example, most people are surprised to learn that there's more calcium in a cup of green veggies than there is in a cup of milk.

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Roger - multiple foreign cuisines satisfy the basic ratios which you promote as optimal. Proof is there - Their citizenry shows little of the aliments which preoccupy you.

Must I repeat it - obesity and malfunctioning pancreas are much less an issue in the Mediterranean countries than in the US. Much, much less.

In many other regions of the world, your concerns are simply nonexistent, due to their having diets quite a bit more sensible than the muddle Americans struggle with.

Where is this respect for foreign culture's dietary existing sophistication, reflected in your comments? Not much in evidence anywhere.

We will have gone from McDonalds cultural imperialism to Roger's American re-engineered Paleo-Diet imperialism without even pausing for breath unless and until you reel in your vigorous enthusiasm for putting the world on a Paleo Diet without first glancing at the reasonbably satisfactory arrangments they already have.

As western diets including refined sugars and flours have replaced indigenous diets over the past centuries, the same diseases of civilization have spread to the developing world. Taubes and other authors cover this thoroughly.

For the umpteenth time, reducing your sugars and grains and substituting fats need not change your protein fraction. If you choose to eat less protein no one is stopping you. My audience is not you or the WHO, it is individual persons wishing to optimize their health.

If you go down the list, you will find specific mention of what to avoid. There is no discussion of meal preparation, garnishments, flavorings, local preferences in terms of flavor, restaurant seating arrangements, what wine goes best with fish, etc. That is because it is emphatically not about cuisine, but rather about macronutrient ratios and their sources. Like anatomy and biochemistry, these are pretty invariant, with minor differences, throughout the world.

The optimal diet for an individual has zero to do with whatever scheme you imagine to feed the world optimally or whether that is even possible. What the macronutrient composition is can be satisfied by an almost infinite variety of possible combinations. My speculations on optimal hormonal balance for the individual are absolutely unconcerned with regional cuisine, or specific dishes or recipes. Read "O" or "Fine Cooking" for that.

Start a separate thread on cooking if you prefer.

[Sharky]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Thanks for posting this.

I discovered this same way of eating more than a decade ago. I've been an on-and-off practitioner of it for years.

My experience in talking with others about this way of eating is that they assume "no grains" only leaves meat and other high-protein foods. In fact, I ate that way myself for a while. It was a mistake. They key is to combine eating the right fats with eating low glycemic index foods -- which includes nutrient-rich vegetables. For example, most people are surprised to learn that there's more calcium in a cup of green veggies than there is in a cup of milk.

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Roger old sport - address the critiques, or lose credibility. Look at it as good theoretical limbering up for the eventual publication of your book. Time to climb out of the ivory tower old boy.

Thank you cindy and welcome. Perhaps we should call this site, "itulip plus pointless harassment, invective and name calliing from Lukester?"

Ah, I see he has flamed you already. Get used to it.

[swgprop]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Even this question is myopic. Just reduce the quantity of what you eat and get physically active, and you become instantly healthier. Even regular portions of grains, if they are in very modest quantity, are not detrimental to human health - I know farmers in Tuscany who go out and work ten hour days in the field and are strong and healthy as an ox, simply because they balance all the ingredients in a more culturally anchored and proved way than Americans approach their food traditions.

Luke you are unique in many ways, intellectually obviously, but more relevant to this thread you've had the advantage of world travel and cultural observation. You've adopted a dietary regimen based on that.

Sadly J6P and the missus haven't been outside of Kansas in since, umm, forever, thus they've not been presented with the gift of evolved learning from other lands. Instead, they are presented with the USDA food pyramid, school lunch programs, an ever changing (and almost always wrong) doctrine from the medical community (lipid hypothesis as an example).

Given that as a foundation it's no wonder that America is FAT and looking for a solution. Sadly we look for the simplest path: a diet pill, a fad, something that turns fat into runny anal leakage. In that cycle we have a market for diet/nutrition books. Some good, some bad.

As I stated earlier in this thread I found The Great Cholesterol Con to be enlightening. And Roger mentioned Taubes whose Good Calories, Bad Calories is on my "to read" list. And frankly if I can figure out who Rogermexico is I might read his as well.

Because I might just learn something as I've not had the privilege of travelling the world and learning first hand as you have.

Cheers.

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Roger - If you consider the term "myopic" to be a grievous insult on thes e pages you have an altogether more cosseted view of the environment here than many others have actually practiced for the past two years. I remark upon how, you have expansively expressed an ownership of these pages which you do not possess. On your own account try using a few less of the imperative declarations and you will be more palatable to this reader. I detect a personality impatient to any questioning of the core precepts of it's thesis, in you. What do we call such a person, using blunter language?

Who draws the line here, as to what we may intimate about each other's views? Is it you who draws the line? You advocate peremptory dismissals and prevarications to my questions, while I should maintain an attitude of respectful deference to yours? Do you feel you are not being accorded your due respect? Who sets the benchmark, of the respect that is due to you, as opposed to the objections served up to you by posters such as me? Everyone has a different benchmark for the respect they feel they are entitled to. Some are terribly sensitive, others impervious.

If we all have the prerogative to declare the limits to our sensibilities, this place would have been reduced to silence a long time ago in deference to the most sensitive personalities. It is the undertone of high handed peremptoriness which undelines your dismissals of points I raise - alerts me that you are accustomed to an environment where your viewpoints are less questioned. Welcome to the iTulip public forum pages Rogermexico. Suck up a little harsh critique, as do so many others here on a regular basis. The great majority of my comment is harshly questioning, but it descends far less into direct insults to your person than your tender skin percieves. It questions your assumptions rather - what I like to call "conceits".

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Even this question is myopic.

Luke, quit insulting me and others on the thread.

Discuss civilly or go away.