Inequality much worse than most think

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Primogeniture. The wealth goes generation to generation. But only to the first born. That's how they don't dilute it.

Ahha! I will have to go back and track the first born and see I can my my rich relatives!!

[dcarrigg]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Well then we are pretty much in agreement. Unfortunately the great wealth does not continue throughout the generations. I am related to King Edward III and also to a couple kings of France (back in the 1300s) and to some very wealthy Englishman which continued into the Colony days and early days of the Republic. I am not sure what exactly happened after that, but we sure did not end of with any of that wealth!!!

Primogeniture. The wealth goes generation to generation. But only to the first born son. That's how they don't dilute it.

There are old yankee families up here, a couple of which I am friendly with, who have original granted land in New England still to this day. It's the same model. If not the first born, give it to one and only one with the instruction not to split the holding up.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I was talking about the top. And up there, sometimes it's hand-downs. Sometimes it's luck.

I'd never disparage hard work. I'm pretty certain it is indeed a virtue. But the Davos crowd didn't get there by hard work. You're born a Walton or a Mars or a Koch. Even Gates was a millionaire's son Harvard boy, and Bezos inherited one of the biggest ranches in the country along with 7 or 8 figures in cash if I'm not mistaken. There are a couple of real Horitio Alger stories out there. But not many. And they're very much the exception, not the rule.

Anyways, I was talking about real players, Jim. Having a million in 2013 dollars floating around in assets isn't the type of thing I have in mind (although I'm not sure what the CEO of a mid-size chem company drags home these days). Hard work and a good bit of luck might even get you there. Solidly upper-middle class with a fancy house and a low-mid end German car (and usually some debt to match). But moving up into the stratosphere requires birthright and more luck than that. There are worlds between a 3 series and a Maybach.

Féadfaidh an luck na hÉireann a bheith in éineacht leat - May the luck of the Irish be with you.

Like all good Irish proverbs, I was never sure if that was supposed to be a blessing or a curse...

Either way, there's one thing I do know:

Well then we are pretty much in agreement. Unfortunately the great wealth does not continue throughout the generations. I am related to King Edward III and also to a couple kings of France (back in the 1300s) and to some very wealthy Englishman which continued into the Colony days and early days of the Republic. I am not sure what exactly happened after that, but we sure did not end of with any of that wealth!!!

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

again dc... all this = spot on
+1
esp the 'blessing or curse' part... with that CCR number exactly The Truth.

;)

I was talking about the top. And up there, sometimes it's hand-downs. Sometimes it's luck.

I'd never disparage hard work. I'm pretty certain it is indeed a virtue. But the Davos crowd didn't get there by hard work. You're born a Walton or a Mars or a Koch. Even Gates was a millionaire's son Harvard boy, and Bezos inherited one of the biggest ranches in the country along with 7 or 8 figures in cash if I'm not mistaken. There are a couple of real Horitio Alger stories out there. But not many. And they're very much the exception, not the rule.

Anyways, I was talking about real players, Jim. Having a million in 2013 dollars floating around in assets isn't the type of thing I have in mind (although I'm not sure what the CEO of a mid-size chem company drags home these days). Hard work and a good bit of luck might even get you there. Solidly upper-middle class with a fancy house and a low-mid end German car (and usually some debt to match). But moving up into the stratosphere requires birthright and more luck than that. There are worlds between a 3 series and a Maybach.

Féadfaidh an luck na hÉireann a bheith in éineacht leat - May the luck of the Irish be with you.

Like all good Irish proverbs, I was never sure if that was supposed to be a blessing or a curse...

Either way, there's one thing I do know:

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

.... inherited the ability from genetics to be able to accomplish it. We are all victims of circumstance. Some are born to be winners, others to be losers, and there's no choice involved. You are who you are because of your environment and genetics. At no point do we ever do anything individually. The interaction of sub-atomic particles acting mechanically determines everything we do. We are all just automatons that are sadly aware of the fact.

with all due respect, mr juju - thatspure unmitigated BS.

from your erudition, i'd have to guess that you've been to/thru some sort of liberal arts indoctrination... uhhh... i mean
'education'

winners are NOT born, duude - they are MADE - and like Mr J himself has said - it happens thru HARD WORK - and while certainly 'luck' has something to do with it - with my fave definition of luck going something like this....

luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

and as jb has illustrated in his story - necessity IS The Mother of MOTIVATION

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

BAdJuju, since I have great faith in God and you have none, I doubt that this is a subject we can ever agree on.

+1 jb
methinks thats the biggest diff tween those who 'make it' (regardless of how thats measured) and those who DONT.

not necessarily faith in the supreme being as much as faith in oneself and ones ability to overcome adversity.

and the childrens fable of 'the little train that could' is the best example of why.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sorry, Jim, but somehow, someway it was handed to them. They may not have inherited the fortune directly, but they inherited the ability from genetics to be able to accomplish it. We are all victims of circumstance. Some are born to be winners, others to be losers, and there's no choice involved. You are who you are because of your environment and genetics. At no point do we ever do anything individually. The interaction of sub-atomic particles acting mechanically determines everything we do. We are all just automatons that are sadly aware of the fact.

BAdJuju, since I have great faith in God and you have none, I doubt that this is a subject we can ever agree on.

[BadJuju]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

No, in fact we are all beneficiaries of this think called existence: yes, we come in and we go out and the cirumstances of our entry and early days are surely not of our own choosing, but Existence is better than Non-Existence. And yes, we do have choices; it's called free will, and even though external pressures, genetics and environmental development may reduce our effective freedom of volition, everyone who has ever lived any duration of a mature life and reflelcted on same would confirm the existence of consience and the difficulties involved in the free choicees made in their own lives (even though some of them will read the latest pop philosophy and psychology and parrot back in their own minds "their is no free will").

If one is not grateful for the gift of existence and considers oneself a victim, one is free to relieve oneself of the burden at any time.

I wouldn't describe us as beneficiaries. Maybe in a better life with a better world in a better universe, I would, but not this life nor this world or the universe it resides in. I do not think we have free will. A completely material existence that operates mechanically precludes it. I do not dispute consciousness; however, it is only awareness. Awareness is not agency. We are trapped in these bodies and minds and we exert no control over them.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I think you could have ended that with a bit more compassion. But largely, I think you're right. I am no Calvinist. Choices matter. And life is a gift. Equality of opportunity, especially early on in life, is an important aim to strive for as a people. Well said.

[vinoveri]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sorry, Jim, but somehow, someway it was handed to them. They may not have inherited the fortune directly, but they inherited the ability from genetics to be able to accomplish it. We are all victims of circumstance. Some are born to be winners, others to be losers, and there's no choice involved. You are who you are because of your environment and genetics. At no point do we ever do anything individually. The interaction of sub-atomic particles acting mechanically determines everything we do. We are all just automatons that are sadly aware of the fact.

No, in fact we are all beneficiaries of this think called existence: yes, we come in and we go out and the cirumstances of our entry and early days are surely not of our own choosing, but Existence is better than Non-Existence. And yes, we do have choices; it's called free will, and even though external pressures, genetics and environmental development may reduce our effective freedom of volition, everyone who has ever lived any duration of a mature life and reflelcted on same would confirm the existence of consience and the difficulties involved in the free choicees made in their own lives (even though some of them will read the latest pop philosophy and psychology and parrot back in their own minds "their is no free will").

If one is not grateful for the gift of existence and considers oneself a victim, one is free to relieve oneself of the burden at any time.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I am sure that is true in many instances, but far from all. I know many people who have done well even though they came from meager beginning. For example my wife (we have been married for 7 years after both our spouses went Home to the Lord) was a single mom working more than one job, including paper routes, part time mail carrier, etc.). All 4 of her children have done very well, including one who is the CEO of a medium size chemical company. They all did it by hard work, absolutely nothing was handed to them.

I was talking about the top. And up there, sometimes it's hand-downs. Sometimes it's luck.

I'd never disparage hard work. I'm pretty certain it is indeed a virtue. But the Davos crowd didn't get there by hard work. You're born a Walton or a Mars or a Koch. Even Gates was a millionaire's son Harvard boy, and Bezos inherited one of the biggest ranches in the country along with 7 or 8 figures in cash if I'm not mistaken. There are a couple of real Horitio Alger stories out there. But not many. And they're very much the exception, not the rule.

Anyways, I was talking about real players, Jim. Having a million in 2013 dollars floating around in assets isn't the type of thing I have in mind (although I'm not sure what the CEO of a mid-size chem company drags home these days). Hard work and a good bit of luck might even get you there. Solidly upper-middle class with a fancy house and a low-mid end German car (and usually some debt to match). But moving up into the stratosphere requires birthright and more luck than that. There are worlds between a 3 series and a Maybach.

Féadfaidh an luck na hÉireann a bheith in éineacht leat - May the luck of the Irish be with you.

Like all good Irish proverbs, I was never sure if that was supposed to be a blessing or a curse...

Either way, there's one thing I do know:

[BadJuju]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I am sure that is true in many instances, but far from all. I know many people who have done well even though they came from meager beginning. For example my wife (we have been married for 7 years after both our spouses went Home to the Lord) was a single mom working more than one job, including paper routes, part time mail carrier, etc.). All 4 of her children have done very well, including one who is the CEO of a medium size chemical company. They all did it by hard work, absolutely nothing was handed to them.

Sorry, Jim, but somehow, someway it was handed to them. They may not have inherited the fortune directly, but they inherited the ability from genetics to be able to accomplish it. We are all victims of circumstance. Some are born to be winners, others to be losers, and there's no choice involved. You are who you are because of your environment and genetics. At no point do we ever do anything individually. The interaction of sub-atomic particles acting mechanically determines everything we do. We are all just automatons that are sadly aware of the fact.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Most Shaman's are not lazy at all...they spend a great deal of time learning their chicanery from an older Shaman, much as an apprentice does; they act as servant to the Shaman, run errands, and spy on everyone to keep a current up to date personal and social commentary to 'guide' their Master's shamaning. In addition, a Master Shaman then has to spend long hours observing omens, and the stars; schedule and conduct the rituals and festivals with skill and attention to detail, and must balance the power of the tribal Chief with a lot of indirect manipulation. In other words, a Shaman is a local Politician with a MD, and a CIA background. These are not easy professions to learn, much less to maintain.

As for elbow grease, most work is mental...even the fix-it stuff that get's your hands greasy. After all, you cannot fix something if you have not learned how to test, eliminate and diagnose the problems. Even the skills you learn and master are but tools for your mind to use to succeed in your life's journey.

All wealth begins, if not obtained by force/war by saving part of the money you make by living frugally, and then investing the saved amount into an honest investment vehicle that earns a return.

While working throughout one's life, one re-invests the profits from the investments, and adds to them by additional savings. None of this is elbow grease, but applied investigation, research, and study of investment techniques, and investment vehicles.

Expensive formal schooling and the accompanying contacts are helpful, but not a requirement. If you are good enough at what you do, you will meet the right people, and develop your own contact list.

Knowledge is available at your local library, and you can get great mentoring from bored retired people on the golf course, or at a chess club, or even a nursing home. All you need to be is interested, caring, and patient, getting to know those older people who have succeeded in some of what you wish to accomplish. They are a mine of information, advice, and counsel.

Working, saving, investing are the keys to wealth, and earned if accomplished honestly, morally, and in accordance with the law.

Owning your own home, providing for yourself and family as sovereign individuals, enjoying life while building up a portfolio to draw upon as one grows older is the epitome of human existence, not third prize in some foolish life contest.

If you can also help others while doing no harm to anyone, you will have even become a truly decent man, and have grown character worth having.

Your negative outlook on what is still available to anyone with energy, ambition and a quick mind is literally negating all the opportunities that exist in plenty, even in a terrible economy with bad government. With that attitude, you will indeed have only what you have described, if you even manage that.

Your best investment toward a better future might be to target variously successful men you admire, take them to lunch, and ask them how they did it. Most successful men enjoy a good lunch, and an attentive ear.

Whining about life's challenges will only chase those away that might help you, particularly as you seem to have forgotten that the journey of life is to be enjoyed because of the obstacles you must surmount, and that your success is not measured merely by how much money you have in the bank, but by how well you have triumphed over the difficulties and challenges you will face during your life, while living life well.

+1

[jiimbergin]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I question whether ever in the whole history of man there was a significant correlation between hard work and wealth. More likely the lazy old shaman ate better than the hard working hunter since day one. I know for a fact it's true now. If you think elbow grease and 70 hours per week will get you ahead of being born into the Groton/Philips -> Harvard/Yale pipeline, I've got a bridge to sell you. You can work hard, live honestly, save, and do things right your whole life without a mistake. The best it gets most people is a decade or two living under a roof that a bank or a landlord doesn't own and a social security check.

I am sure that is true in many instances, but far from all. I know many people who have done well even though they came from meager beginning. For example my wife (we have been married for 7 years after both our spouses went Home to the Lord) was a single mom working more than one job, including paper routes, part time mail carrier, etc.). All 4 of her children have done very well, including one who is the CEO of a medium size chemical company. They all did it by hard work, absolutely nothing was handed to them.

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

+1 dc
but in the interest of holiday brevity....



and this one about sums things up, eh?