Inequality much worse than most think

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

That guy is a jackass. The amount of work people put in for low wages is insane. I work far, far less now that I make more than double the minimum wage. Sometimes the work can be strenuous, but it generally isn't. People should rightly be compensated to the point they can sustain themselves with any job. People that work physically tough jobs shouldn't be looked down upon because they cannot pass muster with regards to mental work.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not true in our world. I may WISH that people who simply worked hard made more money. But that is not the way it works. You have a skill, so you earn more than than a fry chef at McDonalds. It works the same for the devious bastards who manipulate the system. They don't simply work hard, they use their minds. Life ain't fair. Never has been. But by your standards, we could simply set people to endlessly breaking rocks with a sledgehammer for no purpose and they should earn a good living. Why not? They still work hard right? Man is no better than just an Ox or other beast of burden if we are merely compensated for our manual labor. My Dad taught me years ago that even a ditch digger had some skill. To make his point he handed me a shovel and watched my pitiful attempts to dig a ditch. Then he showed me some techniques and pretty soon the ditch was moving along nicely. Most people today have never dug a significant ditch. Therefore they ASSUME anyone can do it. All jobs done by humans have some degree of skill. It may be very minor but there is still thought required and to do that, it requires a brain. Most( not all!) pay differences today are still a result of the differences in the capability and implementation of that brain.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I am sure that is true in many instances, but far from all. I know many people who have done well even though they came from meager beginning. For example my wife (we have been married for 7 years after both our spouses went Home to the Lord) was a single mom working more than one job, including paper routes, part time mail carrier, etc.). All 4 of her children have done very well, including one who is the CEO of a medium size chemical company. They all did it by hard work, absolutely nothing was handed to them.

I also know too many who have risen from nothing to mention. In fact, the standard of living has risen so greatly in this country that we all sound like a bunch of whinning babies in discussions like this. Myself included. We really fail to count our blessings and spend too much time looking at what others have and being miserable because we constantly compare ourselves and keep score. Virtually every person in the USA lives better than Henry VIII in most ways yet we still see ourselves as suffering and put upon. Why is that? Its because success and happiness will always be a relative notion. Many of us will never be happy. Some will always be happy despite our situation. It has as much to do with the individual as the system. It has always been this way to some degree but has gotten worse since the times when people could work their way up the ladder more easily. The 12th century peasant didn't worry himself about such things because his lot was cast in life the day he was born.

[BadJuju]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

with all due respect, mr juju - thatspure unmitigated BS.

from your erudition, i'd have to guess that you've been to/thru some sort of liberal arts indoctrination... uhhh... i mean
'education'

winners are NOT born, duude - they are MADE - and like Mr J himself has said - it happens thru HARD WORK - and while certainly 'luck' has something to do with it - with my fave definition of luck going something like this....

luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

and as jb has illustrated in his story - necessity IS The Mother of MOTIVATION

I disagree, sir. The course of history clearly demonstrates that most wealth occurs because of luck, whether it is from being in the right place at the right time or inheriting it. Hard workers are outliers with regards to wealth. Those factory workers in India probably work their asses off more than anything any of us could ever imagine, but they will never possess a 1/10th of the wealth I possess right now and that's as a poor person in the USA. It is true the world over.

And I went to community college in a redneck state. I work in construction. Not exactly the most liberally-minded background.

[BadJuju]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

+1 jb
methinks thats the biggest diff tween those who 'make it' (regardless of how thats measured) and those who DONT.

not necessarily faith in the supreme being as much as faith in oneself and ones ability to overcome adversity.

and the childrens fable of 'the little train that could' is the best example of why.

Perhaps so, sir; however, that requires a faith in something external as well. You have to believe the universe will reward your work. You can believe in yourself as much as you want, but if you don't believe the universe will reward your confidence and work, then it scarcely matters. No amount of hard work can overcome being dealt a really bad hand in life.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I highly doubt this due to my own experiences.

You can be the smartest guy and most driven person yet not accomplish anything if the "gatekeepers" do not give you the opportunity to do it.

I can be intelligent and get in front of other hedge fund managers and allocaters but not one of them would give me 20 million to manage for them.

It is about being let into the club and only a select few are allowed in, usually based on college attended, ethnicity, family name etc.

Find another club. I'm not saying this doesn't go on, just that we can CHOOSE not to play their game. One of the most important decisions we make in life is what profession/career to pursue. One could argue that pursing a career in the parasitical industry that is Finance today is willingly entering a den of vipers.

[BadJuju]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Someone once said no man is worth more than $1 hour from the neck down. I have to agree. Its what people do with the neck up that matters. Now that can be evil or good, but regardless it takes the effort and its what makes the difference.

That guy is a jackass. The amount of work people put in for low wages is insane. I work far, far less now that I make more than double the minimum wage. Sometimes the work can be strenuous, but it generally isn't. People should rightly be compensated to the point they can sustain themselves with any job. People that work physically tough jobs shouldn't be looked down upon because they cannot pass muster with regards to mental work.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I question whether ever in the whole history of man there was a significant correlation between hard work and wealth. More likely the lazy old shaman ate better than the hard working hunter since day one. I know for a fact it's true now. If you think elbow grease and 70 hours per week will get you ahead of being born into the Groton/Philips -> Harvard/Yale pipeline, I've got a bridge to sell you. You can work hard, live honestly, save, and do things right your whole life without a mistake. The best it gets most people is a decade or two living under a roof that a bank or a landlord doesn't own and a social security check.

Someone once said no man is worth more than $1 hour from the neck down. I have to agree. Its what people do with the neck up that matters. Now that can be evil or good, but regardless it takes the effort and its what makes the difference.

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

i'm not disagree'n P
the connections are _everything_ in life - the rest tends to be an accident.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

what P said.

It has everything to do with opportunity and capital. There is a reason why the most dynamic sector of our economy is tech, because it cost pennies to start a website and college kids can do it. The problem is not everyone is an expert programmer to do it. Plus I am not the type of person to start a shame "website" or "app" idea like tumblr.

But good for them, they played the game well and convinced people that the website will make money from ads.

Everyone else is in debt just to keep up their standard of living. They don't have the opportunity/time to create the next decent or good product because they have to worry about making rent next month.

[GRG55]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I am grateful then not to have a great fortune.

Amen!

I can't help but notice that everyone I know that has a LOT of money seem perpetually unhappy...

[lektrode]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

what P said.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Most Shaman's are not lazy at all...they spend a great deal of time learning their chicanery from an older Shaman, much as an apprentice does; they act as servant to the Shaman, run errands, and spy on everyone to keep a current up to date personal and social commentary to 'guide' their Master's shamaning. In addition, a Master Shaman then has to spend long hours observing omens, and the stars; schedule and conduct the rituals and festivals with skill and attention to detail, and must balance the power of the tribal Chief with a lot of indirect manipulation. In other words, a Shaman is a local Politician with a MD, and a CIA background. These are not easy professions to learn, much less to maintain.

As for elbow grease, most work is mental...even the fix-it stuff that get's your hands greasy. After all, you cannot fix something if you have not learned how to test, eliminate and diagnose the problems. Even the skills you learn and master are but tools for your mind to use to succeed in your life's journey.

All wealth begins, if not obtained by force/war by saving part of the money you make by living frugally, and then investing the saved amount into an honest investment vehicle that earns a return.

While working throughout one's life, one re-invests the profits from the investments, and adds to them by additional savings. None of this is elbow grease, but applied investigation, research, and study of investment techniques, and investment vehicles.

Expensive formal schooling and the accompanying contacts are helpful, but not a requirement. If you are good enough at what you do, you will meet the right people, and develop your own contact list.

Knowledge is available at your local library, and you can get great mentoring from bored retired people on the golf course, or at a chess club, or even a nursing home. All you need to be is interested, caring, and patient, getting to know those older people who have succeeded in some of what you wish to accomplish. They are a mine of information, advice, and counsel.

Working, saving, investing are the keys to wealth, and earned if accomplished honestly, morally, and in accordance with the law.

Owning your own home, providing for yourself and family as sovereign individuals, enjoying life while building up a portfolio to draw upon as one grows older is the epitome of human existence, not third prize in some foolish life contest.

If you can also help others while doing no harm to anyone, you will have even become a truly decent man, and have grown character worth having.

Your negative outlook on what is still available to anyone with energy, ambition and a quick mind is literally negating all the opportunities that exist in plenty, even in a terrible economy with bad government. With that attitude, you will indeed have only what you have described, if you even manage that.

Your best investment toward a better future might be to target variously successful men you admire, take them to lunch, and ask them how they did it. Most successful men enjoy a good lunch, and an attentive ear.

Whining about life's challenges will only chase those away that might help you, particularly as you seem to have forgotten that the journey of life is to be enjoyed because of the obstacles you must surmount, and that your success is not measured merely by how much money you have in the bank, but by how well you have triumphed over the difficulties and challenges you will face during your life, while living life well.

I highly doubt this due to my own experiences.

You can be the smartest guy and most driven person yet not accomplish anything if the "gatekeepers" do not give you the opportunity to do it.

I can be intelligent and get in front of other hedge fund managers and allocaters but not one of them would give me 20 million to manage for them.

It is about being let into the club and only a select few are allowed in, usually based on college attended, ethnicity, family name etc.

[Rajiv]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

You might also find "Born on Third Base" to be interesting reading.

United for a Fair Economy's latest report, Born on Third Base: What the Forbes 400 Really Says About Economic Equality & Opportunity in America, looks at what's missing from the annual Forbes 400 list. Learn how Forbes spins a misleading tale of what it takes to become wealthy in America.

This is the 2012 version

[llanlad2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

It's entirely possible they're out there. First mention of my family seems to go back to the late 1200s. An in-castle servant girl in Cumbria who was never allowed to leave. She died not long after Eddie 3 was born. The decedent of her master still holds land, the castle, and a seat in the House of Lords. In some ways, it's easier to understand things in Blighty. They don't sugarcoat things the same way we do here.

Research into just this topic(how long wealth passes down) has been carried out in the UK by comparing Norman names (who became the ruling class of England in 1066) and traditional Saxon names. The article is from here.

So much for social mobility… 1,000 years after William the Conquerer invaded, you still need a Norman name like Darcy or Percy to get ahead

• Prestige of Norman surnames has been unbroken for 27 generations
• Poorer names like Defoe, Ledwell and Rowthorne remained less fortunate
  
• Findings were revealed by researchers at London School of Economics
• The researchers from the London School of Economics, Dr Neil Cummins and Professor Gregory Clark, said the name checks showed that social mobility in England is hardly greater than in medieval times, and that people inherited their social status even more than they inherit their height.The researchers from the London School of Economics used 800 years of history to compile their top and bottom ten, above
  
  Dr Cummins said: ‘Just take the names of the Normans who conquered England nearly 1,000 years ago. Surnames such as Baskerville, Darcy, Mandeville and Montgomery are still over-represented at Oxbridge and also among elite occupations such as medicine, law and politics.
  
  ‘What is surprising is that between 1800 and 2011 there have been substantial institutional changes in England but no gain in rates of social mobility for society as a whole.’
  
  The study comes at a time of widespread concern about social mobility as large-scale research suggests that those born to less well-off families have had less chance of success since the 1970s.
  Much of the blame has been pinned on the education system, with left-wingers attacking universities for failing to admit students from poor backgrounds, while right-wingers say the abolition of the grammar schools cut off the way up for working class children.
  
  The LSE research said that the spread of mass education over the past 150 years has done nothing to break the grip of the longstanding elite on positions of power, and that the same families have been on top despite centuries of religious reformation, civil war, industrial revolution, the growth of democracy and education, and the birth of the welfare state.
  
  Conventional estimates say it takes three to five generations for a wealthy family to fall to the middle ground and a poor family to rise to the same level.
  
  The researchers tested the idea by examining student rolls for Oxford and Cambridge universities going back to 1170, four years after the Norman Conquest.
  
  The two institutions were the only universities in England until 1832 and continue to accept only the best-qualified students.
  
  'There has been modest improvement in social mobility rates between the medieval era and the modern world, with that change occurring around 1800,' the researchers said.
  
  But they added: 'The remarkable status persistence found using Oxbridge attendance as the status measure is found just as strongly with a more general and democratic measure of status such as asset ownership.
  
  'Over the generations there were substantial increases in the rate of taxation of wealth and income, especially after 1910. Yet this did nothing to increase rates of wealth mobility.'
  
  
  Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2mARKI1N4
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[dcarrigg]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Ahha! I will have to go back and track the first born and see I can my my rich relatives!!

It's entirely possible they're out there. First mention of my family seems to go back to the late 1200s. An in-castle servant girl in Cumbria who was never allowed to leave. She died not long after Eddie 3 was born. The decedent of her master still holds land, the castle, and a seat in the House of Lords. In some ways, it's easier to understand things in Blighty. They don't sugarcoat things the same way we do here.