Inequality much worse than most think

[photon555]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Another great and informative thread on itulip. May I suggest that the ability of a group of people to engage in a conversation like this over a period of time, something that was not possible even 20 years ago, is a form of wealth and a great enhancement in the standard of living.

I believe all information has value, even if it is only entertainment value. But to me at least, the exercise of the mind that comes from encountering differing opinions and viewpoints is worth quite a lot more than the cost of internet service. On these forums, the whole is worth far more than the sum of its parts.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I find this to be the case with several apple tree in parks as well. It is also true what you say, but I believe the idea of eating fruit from a tree is now an alien concept in much of our culture.

When I was a kid my house was a stones throw from the apple orchard on top of the hill. I would go there and take apples from the tree to eat. When I got older I thought "maybe someone will catch me taking apples?"

I know that my love for green apples over red (I hate the skin on red apples) led me to ask the same question everyday at elementary school lunch; Why do you not have green apples?

I met my elementary school principal when I was 20 or so and he told me "you look exactly the same as you did back then and all I remember about you is that everyday you would ask for green apples at lunch"

I was persistent.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The main reason people in the US do not harvest the trees, even those lining the street in front of their house, is the very strong notion of property rights, or rather over the lack thereof. The predominant thought is "It is not my tree - so I cannot take the fruit off of it" It does not matter, that the tree is on the property of a facility to help the homeless. Also, I have had instance, where the fruit was falling off, and rotting, and I have knocked on the door, asking if I could have some of the fruit. The answer more often than not is "NO! It is my business, and not yours!"

Then of course, there is as you have pointed out, a lack of knowledge of what is edible and what is not!

I find this to be the case with several apple tree in parks as well. It is also true what you say, but I believe the idea of eating fruit from a tree is now an alien concept in much of our culture.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

This only pertains to America/Canada and some Western European countries/global financial centers. Most of the rest of the world is starving.

This is why India is the way that it is; chaotic. 99% of the people have to fight for the meager resources that are available to the masses.

There are many way to look at it but the real basis is water. Many parts of the world depend on irrigation for agriculture which is inherently politically controlled. All one has to do is look to do is look at our west and compare it to the east. There is a reason why millionaire farmers live in California and not in Nebraska. If it rains where you live, starvation is based on ignorance. In many societies with irrigation agriculture, its rooted in politics. The only exceptions to this rule are living in heavily urbanized areas where land is as scarce as water. Goats and chickens can eat almost anything. The problem is once an area can produce some kind of food surplus, its vulnerable to confiscation.

[Rajiv]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The main reason people in the US do not harvest the trees, even those lining the street in front of their house, is the very strong notion of property rights, or rather over the lack thereof. The predominant thought is "It is not my tree - so I cannot take the fruit off of it" It does not matter, that the tree is on the property of a facility to help the homeless. Also, I have had instance, where the fruit was falling off, and rotting, and I have knocked on the door, asking if I could have some of the fruit. The answer more often than not is "NO! It is my business, and not yours!"

Then of course, there is as you have pointed out, a lack of knowledge of what is edible and what is not!

[gwynedd1]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

Funny you should say that last part. There is a facility to help the homeless on my way to work that has an apple tree on its property. No one touches them but me. I am eating one of the several hundred pounds I got this year right now for lunch. The quality is superior. The poor college kids in the apartments have no interest in the dolgos crab apple , cornelain cherry, service berries or aronia in the land scape across the street either. Now some of the things I do might be 16 century "Indian", but full sized apples?

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sure if you only gauge success in terms of money. I don't. I don't worry about what others have or have accomplished. We all have different circumstances. I have raised three great kids while managing to pay the bills, all while suffering with significant health problems. I didn't have to lie or cheat anyone to do so. I live comfortably, if simply. I notice those on this forum that post a lot have the time to do so. To me that could be a sign of success. Free time not spent slaving away is worth more to me than consumer junk. My guess is you are more successful than you give yourself credit for. The modern Materialistic value system is bankrupt, ignore it.

I am not gauging my success based on monetary value. It is far more complicated. Recognition and respect matters more to me and being given the opportunity to "play the game."

If I don't get the opportunity that I know I can succeed at than I have failed in that venture of my life. That window is rapidly closing.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

This only pertains to America/Canada and some Western European countries/global financial centers. Most of the rest of the world is starving.

This is why India is the way that it is; chaotic. 99% of the people have to fight for the meager resources that are available to the masses.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Sure if you only gauge success in terms of money. I don't. I don't worry about what others have or have accomplished. We all have different circumstances. I have raised three great kids while managing to pay the bills, all while suffering with significant health problems. I didn't have to lie or cheat anyone to do so. I live comfortably, if simply. I notice those on this forum that post a lot have the time to do so. To me that could be a sign of success. Free time not spent slaving away is worth more to me than consumer junk. My guess is you are more successful than you give yourself credit for. The modern Materialistic value system is bankrupt, ignore it.

[flintlock]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

The only comment I would make is that I distinguish as two completely separate concepts wealth and standard of living vs financial wealth. The typical input of labor is much poorer financially and that spells trouble. In fact when someone buys something their standard of living improves while their finances diminish. So there is some short term inverse relationship. As I see it now , the middle class is enjoying a rising standard of living which is a what has baited them to destroy their finances under a much longer curve these days. China was "a capitalist" country before the US was even a country. It is not a pleasant thing to read the conditions.

I generally agree, but we need to remember that until modern times, a major pursuit in life was simply getting enough to eat. Human suffering was off the charts compared to today. Now even our poor are fat, have cars, medical care, heat in the winter. But yes, people today trade wealth for standard of living. That has as much to do with our welfare safety net as anything else. If people really believed they would starve it would change things.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I bet she's also good at giving compliments to the boss. Flattery and ingratiation will can open lots of doors as I am sure you will all agree. Especially as I know you itulipers to be such intelligent, wonderful people

Hah, she is pretty about 5'8, 5'9 asian girl. But thanks for the compliment

[llanlad2]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

Now I bet she is excellent at giving advice to endowments on "what/who to invest in."

I bet she's also good at giving compliments to the boss. Flattery and ingratiation will can open lots of doors as I am sure you will all agree. Especially as I know you itulipers to be such intelligent, wonderful people

[DSpencer]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I wouldn't describe us as beneficiaries. Maybe in a better life with a better world in a better universe, I would, but not this life nor this world or the universe it resides in. I do not think we have free will. A completely material existence that operates mechanically precludes it. I do not dispute consciousness; however, it is only awareness. Awareness is not agency. We are trapped in these bodies and minds and we exert no control over them.

BadJuju,

I think I can relate to how you feel. I too am still waiting for any compelling scientific explanation for the existence of free will. However, I don't think it's cause to despair. Technically, we may not have free will, but for all practical purposes we can still have the experience of it. Newtonian physics may be "wrong" in many ways, but it is still useful in everyday life. Our concept of Time may be incomplete and inaccurate, but we don't have to burn our clocks and watches. Free will or not, we can still experience joy and wonder and contentment. What's wrong with even a mechanical organism finding joy in its self awareness? Many religious people have pushed the agenda that life without God isn't worth living. If you reject the rest of their beliefs, why do you accept that?

[srivatsan]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I highly doubt this due to my own experiences.

You can be the smartest guy and most driven person yet not accomplish anything if the "gatekeepers" do not give you the opportunity to do it.

I can be intelligent and get in front of other hedge fund managers and allocaters but not one of them would give me 20 million to manage for them.

It is about being let into the club and only a select few are allowed in, usually based on college attended, ethnicity, family name etc.

I have to agree with these statements more than any set of statements because this has been the fact of my experiences in life. To summarize, intelligence and money making in many cases is badly correlated if at all. Money comes to folks because of "position" and not because of "talent". Who would tolerate El Presidente / CEO if he/she wasn't in that position?

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Inequality much worse than most think

I agree that people should not be looked down upon because of what they do. Almost any work is noble. Heck if you could see what I do! But all pay is not based on IQ. That is not what I was saying. Rather things like reliability, punctuality, work ethic, attitude, and personality. All are "brain" related vs pure brawn. I have long argued here that people with less education and/or intelligence still need good jobs. That we cant all be PhDs. Most people have a strength, they just need to find it rather than settle. A lot of people's attitude is what is holding them back, not some evil force. When I read about adults working at McDonalds for 20 years for minimum wage you can bet at least some have settled for that lot in life. I'm not buying that it has been forced on them.

EJ only has a bachelors degree in resource economics yet he is more intelligent and has figured out more things about the "macro-economic" economy than 99% of the PhDs in economics.

I have never once settled for my lot in life and spend 100% of my time in my chosen field trying to get ahead to the detriment of everyone and everything around me but it has equated to very little opportunity in what I actually know that I am good at and want to do.

I am sorry but your point doesn't ring true with my own case. Most of my friends are doctors, consultants or work in finance/hedge funds, all apparently tell me that I am very intelligent and should be working at a hedge fund. I do not work at a hedge fund and they all make double to triple to quadruple what I make yet are no more intelligent or even less intelligent than I am.

I have a friend who went Philips Academy --> Georgetown ---> Goldman Sachs investment banking ----> Harvard MBA ----> Consultant to endowments/pensions and doesnt even know what the great inflation of the 1970s was. I was chatting with her about economics at dinner one night and mentioned the great inflation of the 1970s and she said "what is that?"

Now I bet she is excellent at giving advice to endowments on "what/who to invest in."