Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Warning -- harebrained paranoid conspiracy theory follows:

Maybe it was not a mistake. Maybe it was planting a casus belli.

If the U.S. military-intelligence complex (or whomever runs it) wants an excuse to unleash the dogs of war on me, perhaps they first get me to purchase a few AK-47's on the black market, then they stir up a fight between myself and my neighbor and use all this as an excuse to unleash all holy hell on the hole in the ground formerly known as my Texas trailer (if my neighbor, similarly supplied with guns, hasn't already done the job.)

This sort of playing off every one else against each other is the sort of thing that Zbigniew Brzezinski is famous for advocating.

How do you unleash the "dogs of war" on a nuclear power?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

How do you unleash the "dogs of war" on a nuclear power?

From an undisclosed location in a bunker far below the ground?

To be [a] honest or [b] lunatic paranoid (you're call which), the guys that would choose to do this don't mind the prospects of such a war between a nation with many nukes and a nation with just a handful of nukes. The many nukes will win the war, despite horrific casualties.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

From an undisclosed location in a bunker far below the ground?

To be [a] honest or [b] lunatic paranoid (you're call which), the guys that would choose to do this don't mind the prospects of such a war between a nation with many nukes and a nation with just a handful of nukes. The many nukes will win the war, despite horrific casualties.

I don't believe people do things without a motivation. What would any elements in the "military/industrial complex" or the "espionage/CIA complex" gain out of all this? I don't believe that the US military complex is simply filled with evil-doers who will trigger nuclear war for no reason.

Secondly, the fact of Chinese assistance to Pakistan in the area of nuclear development is well documented. And, there were already fears expressed in the US even during Bush Sr's term that Pakistan had an active nuclear weapons program. Clinton's response to all this was to do absolutely nothing. Other than his ability to charm people and flatter them, Clinton was a talentless man and an empty suit. And all that happened when Pakistan tested nukes officially in 1998 was that he was suddenly woken out of his stupor.

What prompted Americans to replace a capable man like Bush Sr with an ignoramus like Clinton I've never understood.

[mliu_01]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

In some respects I agree but not in others. For example, no African state is about to acquire nuclear weapons.

I am so glad that US stopped Iraqis to acquire nuclear weapons. So glad we destroyed their mobile labs.

We should definetely go to iran and kill 1.3 million of woman and kids, just like we did in Iraq. So they will learn a lesson not to abuse women.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

His mistakes were far greater than that. One of his most obvious and glaring mistakes was to be fast asleep while Pakistan built nuclear weapons capability on his watch. It is a bit rich for his kind to now start fretting about Iran when he allowed a far more dangerous country (Pakistan) to build the bomb.

In Pakistan you have a country which is rickety, unstable and infested with Islamic extremists which acquired nuclear weapons during the 1990s. The risk of those weapons winding up in the hands of terrorists is far greater than it ever will be with Iran or with the imagined WMDs that Saddam supposedly possessed.

Well, that was more of a global error than a Clinton error. And pakistan getting nukes didn't really destabilize anything, in fact it brought a certain amount of peace between india and pakistan via MAD.

However, nukes in Iran would create an arms race in the middle east.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Well, that was more of a global error than a Clinton error. And pakistan getting nukes didn't really destabilize anything, in fact it brought a certain amount of peace between india and pakistan via MAD.

However, nukes in Iran would create an arms race in the middle east.

To think that nuclear weapons have brought stability is seriously delusional. Within a year of Pakistan testing nukes this happened.

Also, a comment like this shows a complete lack of understanding of what Pakistan has become as a country.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

I don't believe ...

Ten or fifteen years ago, I could have written exactly the post you just wrote. It's been a long road to where my thinking is now. I don't have any clue how to condense that road into a useful post or two, and this good forum would not really be the proper place to do so, even if I could. Sorry.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Ten or fifteen years ago, I could have written exactly the post you just wrote. It's been a long road to where my thinking is now. I don't have any clue how to condense that road into a useful post or two, and this good forum would not really be the proper place to do so, even if I could. Sorry.

You can message me with any info that sheds useful light on the subject. I always keep an open mind on these things.

[thisandthat.nowandth]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

We should definetely go to iran and kill 1.3 million of woman and kids, just like we did in Iraq. So they will learn a lesson not to abuse women.

What about legalized stoning, beheading, and other brutal forms of public execution as currently practiced in Saudi Arabia?.

I forgot, SA is our ME ally.

Nevermind.

-joaquin-

[flintlock]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

To think that nuclear weapons have brought stability is seriously delusional. Within a year of Pakistan testing nukes this happened.

Also, a comment like this shows a complete lack of understanding of what Pakistan has become as a country.

I see your point, but with less than 5000 dead in a "war" between nations with over 1 billion people, it could be seen as a result of restraint being used. Possibly due to nuclear being on the table.

As far as Russia helping Iran with nukes, I think they will rue the day they did this.

[sishya]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Ten or fifteen years ago, I could have written exactly the post you just wrote. It's been a long road to where my thinking is now. I don't have any clue how to condense that road into a useful post or two, and this good forum would not really be the proper place to do so, even if I could. Sorry.

True, Neither was Bush Sr capable and Clinton an Ignoramus. They all work for the same powers.

[shiny!]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Originally Posted by mliu_01

We should definetely go to iran and kill 1.3 million of woman and kids, just like we did in Iraq. So they will learn a lesson not to abuse women.

What about legalized stoning, beheading, and other brutal forms of public execution as currently practiced in Saudi Arabia?.

I forgot, SA is our ME ally.

It is possible to make changes happen by going through legal channels, through education and public pressure on government officials. No war, no invasions, no violence.

There is a tendency for people to think that government interventions, wars and invasions are the only way to effect societal changes in countries. That is the worst way to go about things! Individual people, without government involvement, can make a huge difference, oftentimes more quickly than monolithic, moribund government agencies.

Equality Now is working in Saudi Arabia to get the laws changed that place women under the perpetual guardianship of the males in their families. They aren't waiting for help from the U.S. Government or any other government. They have already had some individual successes in court, and are working on making these legal decisions apply become the law of the land. "Male guardianship" may not sound like much, but in Saudi Arabia:

• A girl of any age can be forced into marriage by her male guardian.
• A woman of any age requires the consent of her male guardian to enter into marriage.
• A woman can be forcibly divorced from her husband at the behest of her male guardian.
• A girl cannot be educated without the consent of her male guardian.
• A woman cannot continue her education without the consent of her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot get a passport without the permission of her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot travel, or take her children anywhere, without the permission of her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot be admitted to, or discharged from, a government hospital without the permission of her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot make decisions regarding medical care, including family planning, for herself or her children without the permission of her husband or male guardian.
• In the few jobs that are permitted to a Saudi woman, she cannot be employed without the approval of her husband or male guardian.
• Irrespective of age or educational attainment, a woman cannot run a business unless it is in the name of her husband or male guardian and she has his permission to manage it.
• A woman cannot access government agencies without women-only sections unless she is accompanied by her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot enter a police station to file a complaint unless she is accompanied by her husband or male guardian.
• A woman cannot file a court case or even appear before a judge without the presence of her husband or male guardian.

In other parts of the world Equality Now is working to end child marriages in Yemen by pushing for a law establishing a minimum age for marriage. They're working in Pakistan to prevent abuse and exploitation of girls and women who are domestic workers. They're working in Iran to prevent stonings.

With the state of the world as it is, it is so easy to become cynical, to feel that the only options are to either do nothing or to wage all-out war. But there are non-governmental organizations working hard all over the world to make life better for the weakest and most vulnerable among us. This is the middle path, and one that we can all help in some way.

[thisandthat.nowandth]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

It is possible to make changes happen by going through legal channels, through education and public pressure on government officials. No war, no invasions, no violence. And for such a small organization they are very effective.

Hello shiny. I couldn't agree with you more. Likewise, I fully support the humanitarian efforts of groups like Equality Now.

When I raised the [seldom discussed] issue of legalized stoning in the KSA, my intention was to highlight the often duplicitous nature of international political relationships, as well as the media's propensity for selective indignation. When moral conscience collides with foreign policy objectives, out comes the sliding scale.

-joaquin-

[Starving Steve]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

Who says that the U.S. and its allies killed 1.3 million people in Iraq? Please give us the names of the accusers, so that we might see who they are? And what evidence do the accusers sight to support their claim of 1.3 million people being killed by the U.S. and its allies in Iraq?

If I went to UC Berkeley to-day, I would make myself downright obnoxious: I would have questions to ask, regardless of what the crowd on campus wants to hear. I would ask questions of the professors and guest speakers on the Sproul Hall steps. I should have been asking a lot more questions of those at Berkeley in 1969 who were supposedly "authorities" about Iran, Islam, U.S. foreign policy, the Middle East, the Third World, the Shah of Iran, self-appointed authorities about the Black Muslims and the Black Panthers, etc.

So, let's see the evidence on the 1.3 million deaths, and who is making this claim against the U.S. and her allies? May I check their arithmetic?

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Pope monitoring Iranian woman sentenced to stoning death, Vatican says

I see your point, but with less than 5000 dead in a "war" between nations with over 1 billion people, it could be seen as a result of restraint being used. Possibly due to nuclear being on the table.

As far as Russia helping Iran with nukes, I think they will rue the day they did this.

Pakistan's sponsorship of terrorism and terrorist outfits continued unabated (in fact even increased) after they acquired nukes. It gave them a shield that they could hide behind and continue to harbour and finance the most vicious and violent extremists on earth. There was a marked increase in terrorist attacks on Indian soil "culminating" in the attacks in Mumbai in which nearly 200 people died.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Americans deal with these things very calmly when these things are not happening in their back yard. What would have been the American reaction if the Mumbai attacks had occurred in New York instead? Not only that, what would happen if there was an attack on the US nearly every two months killing 70 or 80 people?

As far as restraint goes, India has fought three wars with Pakistan and won all three yet showed remarkable restraint. In 1965, the Indian Army marched all the way to Lahore (which was then the capital) but then having won the war simply left. I don't think the Pakistanis would show that kind of restraint.

Anyway, I don't think I can convince anyone here how dangerous it is for that country to have nuclear weapons. Heaven forbid if some Western city were to disappear in a mushroom cloud one day to prove my point (though I sincerely hope I never have to see that day as long as I am alive).

Addendum: Even though the Indian government had been warning the Clinton administration throughout the 90s about the growing jihadist menace in Pakistan, it fell on deaf years. Madeline Albright (or is that halfbright?) made it a point to lecture India on "human rights" (the temerity of that is amazing considering that she would not dare to utter a word about "human rights" to China). 9-11 changed all this completely. Suddenly the US establishment was jolted into the realisation that not only was Pakistan the most dangerous haven for terrorists (worse than Iran) but it also had nuclear weapons. Simply put, it is the most dangerous country on earth by a comfortable margin.

Here's some info on the latest leak showing the nexus between the country's security establishment and various jihadist groups.