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  • vt
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...08-25-15-47-16

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  • don
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    numerous and conflicting Oswald sightings preceded November 22nd . . . .

    Is imitation the highest form of flattery?

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  • touchring
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    After the "invasion of humanitarian" trucks, the destruction of an entire convoy of phantom tanks that disappeared without a trace, now we have "Russian military disguised as rebels", I fear that the day Russia really invades, no one will believe.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ttle/14558911/

    "This morning there was an attempt by the Russian military in the guise of Donbass fighters to open a new area of military confrontation in the southern Donetsk region," Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for Ukraine's National Security Council, told reporters in Kiev.
    Last edited by touchring; August 25, 2014, 12:16 PM.

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  • vt
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Putin Makes His Move

    His forces intervene to grab another chunk of Ukraine.


    Updated Aug. 22, 2014 7:10 p.m. ET
    The use of Russian-manned artillery inside Ukraine is being portrayed as a "significant escalation" in Vladimir Putin's effort to seize his neighbor's territory. That's putting it mildly. So far in this crisis the Russian strongman has practiced a form of ambiguous aggression—the insignia-less "little green men" in Crimea; the quasi-covert military aid to the separatists in eastern Ukraine—that provided the Kremlin with at least a fig leaf of deniability. What's happening now looks like an outright invasion.
    The insertion of artillery, which was confirmed Friday by NATO officials, comes as a convoy of some 200 Russian trucks illegally entered the separatist-controlled territory in and around the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk. The trucks, ostensibly delivering humanitarian aid, were supposed to be escorted by the International Red Cross. Red Cross officials refused to join the convoy for fear of being caught in a crossfire, but the convoy entered anyway.
    Opinion Video


    Global View Columnist Bret Stephens on news that Russia artillery units are inside Ukraine, firing on Ukrainian forces. Photo: Associated Press


    Exactly what Mr. Putin hopes to achieve remains to be seen. At a minimum, the convoy serves the Kremlin's domestic propaganda purposes by offering visual evidence that Mother Russia will come to the aid of fellow Russians stranded in the country's "near abroad" and under dire threat from allegedly nefarious forces.
    U.S. Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO's Supreme Commander, has noted that Russia has "previously sent 'humanitarian' and 'peacekeeping' efforts to Georgia, Moldova and Crimea, and we have seen how they proved to be deceptions that freeze conflicts rather than resolve them." The Kremlin formula is to insert the convoy, demand a ceasefire, then insist that Kiev honor the ceasefire, in turn allowing the rebel enclaves to become self-governing territories.
    But the convoy also creates the possibility of an incident—accidental or premeditated—that can spark a wider war. Mr. Putin has a history of using such incidents to start wars against his enemies. That includes the mysterious apartment building explosions—blamed on Chechen terrorists but widely suspected of being the work of Russian intelligence services—that sparked the Second Chechen War in 1999 and first brought Mr. Putin to power. The 2008 invasion of Georgia was sparked by another ambiguous border incident.
    As for the Ukraine crisis, there is little doubt the Kremlin is ready and perhaps eager for another incident. Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoygu has "guaranteed" to the Obama Administration that the convoy would not be used to start an invasion. Yet his ministry has also stationed some 18,000 troops on the border with Ukraine, and now the deployment of Russian artillery shows how little that guarantee was worth.
    Enlarge Image


    Russia's President Vladimir Putin in Yalta, Crimea, in August. Reuters




    All the more so since Kiev has surprised much of the world, perhaps including itself, by prosecuting a successful military offensive that seemed to be on the cusp of cutting off the rebels from their supply routes to Russia. Among the reasons the Obama Administration has refused to supply Ukraine with arms is the fear that its military was incompetent, undisciplined and possibly disloyal. Having proven the Administration skeptics wrong, Ukraine's military deserves immediate U.S. support.
    We noted last week ("Some Realism on Russia," Aug. 16) what some of that support might be: body armor, night-vision goggles, small UAVs, antitank weapons, shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles and radio jammers. This equipment can be rapidly loaded on C-17 cargo planes and flown directly to Kiev, much like the crucial aid that was delivered to Israel during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Merely the sight of those planes might give Mr. Putin reason to think twice about sending in the main body of his forces. It would also give Ukrainians—not to mention nervous NATO allies in the Baltics and Central Europe—confidence that Mr. Obama's assurances are more than talk. The President has boasted about the efficacy of his post-Crimea sanctions, but so far they've had little impact on the Russian economy and even less on the Kremlin's behavior, save perhaps to underscore how reluctant the West is to punish the Kremlin.
    Eastern Ukraine is now the place where Western resolve is being acutely tested against the usual temptations of timidity and indifference. This is an old story, and Mr. Obama is fond of saying that this kind of aggression has no place "in the 21st century." But Russia's revanchism is a reminder that human nature remains the same no matter what century we're living in. Dictators do not do off-ramps. Their aggression doesn't stop until it is checked.
    The White House on Friday called Mr. Putin's actions a "flagrant violation" of Ukraine's sovereignty. But the question now in Ukraine, as also regarding ISIS in Iraq, is not the sincerity of Mr. Obama's indignation. It's whether this President has the will to do anything to stop it.


    http://online.wsj.com/articles/putin...ove-1408746792

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  • touchring
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by sutro View Post
    First it was "little green men" and now it's "big white trucks".

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

    It's really simple. Even a fool knows that to win a siege war, you must first cut off water and food supply and starve the inhabitants. This is how war was waged in ancient time.

    That's why Ukraine will never allow Russian aid to reach Luhansk.
    Last edited by touchring; August 22, 2014, 11:09 AM.

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  • sutro
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    First it was "little green men" and now it's "big white trucks".

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

    Leave a comment:


  • Shakespear
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Some history of Western Ukrainian cooperation with Germany during WWII and today's Western Ukraine's political ideology. The link is Bandera and SS Galizien.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYwMVSlAGs

    Note the hat real German in the Wehrmacht wore.

    and
    Cossacks with Germans in Warsaw to fight the Polish Uprising in 1944. Final death count (mostly civilians) 200 thousand.

    Leave a comment:


  • touchring
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by gwynedd1 View Post
    The problem I have with Judaism and Islam is they they do have a ready means to justify warfare. Call what ever a jihad or your enemy the spirit of Amalek and it can be sound doctrine. Many Crusaders used Christianity as a justification, but then it was not sound Christian doctrine. Not surprising since most Christians could not even read it. That isn't to say that what ever happens to be written down offers much protection, but at least its something.

    Did WWI or WWII start because of Judaism or Islam? We watch too much MSM.
    Last edited by touchring; August 19, 2014, 09:23 PM.

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  • gwynedd1
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by sutro View Post
    There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

    Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?
    The problem I have with Judaism and Islam is they they do have a ready means to justify warfare. Call what ever a jihad or your enemy the spirit of Amalek and it can be sound doctrine. Many Crusaders used Christianity as a justification, but then it was not sound Christian doctrine. Not surprising since most Christians could not even read it. That isn't to say that what ever happens to be written down offers much protection, but at least its something.

    Leave a comment:


  • gwynedd1
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by sutro View Post
    So there is no comparison to be made, for example, with the Pan-Slavism of the past and Putin's stated rationale to protect Russian speakers that are outside of his country's borders but inside his country's sphere of influence?
    That was not what you were saying before. However this is closer to the truth. As to pan Slavism its more comparable, but its hard to call it a recipe for success. It was also the last of it since Britain, France, Germany and Italy consolidated and it was the same game of how dare the Slavs do what we did. However, Western Slavs never identified with Eastern Slavs. It was too distant a gap with lots of bad blood between them. Given that I am of Croatian and Slovenian decent, I am not merely well read on the subject, I grew up with it. I recall my Grandmother being rather nostalgic for the Hapsburg empire. I recall a rather dim view of both Serbians and Turks. I recall these thinks while eating Croatian nut rolls . Kind of ironic given that it seems I spend so much time on the misconceptions of the Eastern Slav.

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  • sutro
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by gwynedd1 View Post
    Interesting that one who claimed injury at ad hominem argument decides to deliver this patronizing and dismissive comment. Consider us even.





    What Russia is doing is nothing like either the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. If anything Putin is following Bismarck's unification plan for Germany in making a consolidated and relatively stable nation state. Bismark did it for the same reasons, given that before then the Prussians were nothing but divided pawns of the larger nations. And before then the 100 years war between Britain and France can be described as Britain taking advantage of a divided France. Of course nations hate it when there rivals actually cooperate which was why "nationalism " is bad when they say so....
    So there is no comparison to be made, for example, with the Pan-Slavism of the past and Putin's stated rationale to protect Russian speakers that are outside of his country's borders but inside his country's sphere of influence?

    Leave a comment:


  • touchring
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by Shakespear View Post
    I agree with you that "something is going on" and as you say we can NOT be sure why it is so.

    China's involvement in Xinjiang dated back to the BCs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang

    Different powers were fighting for control of Xinjiang through the millenniums, before Islam and before oil and gas were discovered. Of course, at that time, the struggle was for the control of trade routes and taxes that could be collected.
    Last edited by touchring; August 19, 2014, 04:52 AM.

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  • Shakespear
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by touchring View Post
    Since there are so many videos and photos (unlike the claim on this thread), the attacks must be real, but the underlying cause must also be examined.
    I agree with you that "something is going on" and as you say we can NOT be sure why it is so.

    There is one thing to notice about this area though, "What is below the ground ?".
    http://www.commodityonline.com/news/...7-3-15488.html
    but there is more
    Xinjiang Province (Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region), is located in Northwest China, with its capital city in Urumqi. Xinjiang Province, hereinafter referred to as Xinjiang, covers over 1,660,000 km2, one-sixth of China’s total territory, bordering Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The physiography of Xinjiang is dominated by three economically important basins, the Tarim, Turpan and Junggar, rich in coal and hydrocarbon resources. These basins are framed by mountain chains, with breathtaking scenery; the Altay in the north, the Tianshan in the centre and the Kunlun–Karakorum in the south. The Tianshan (Tian = heaven, Shan = mountains; with peaks reaching in excess of 5000 m a.s.l., Bogdashan, and up to 7439 m a.s.l. in the Pobedy Peak), extends across the centre, geographically separating the Province into two regions, southern and northern Xinjiang, whereas the Aiden Lake depression in the Turpan Basin at 154 m below sea level is the second lowest land on Earth.Apart from coal and hydrocarbons, important mineral resources include deposits of chromium, gold, iron, vanadium, copper, nickel, tungsten, molybdenum, lead and zinc. Resources of industrial minerals are also abundant in Xinjiang. These include deposits of magnesite, fluorite, sulphur, kyanite, salt, kaolin, asbestos, vermiculite, gypsum, graphite, perlite and zeolite. Numerous thermal springs, locally exploited for mineral waters, occur in zones or belts associated with major fault structures along the Altay, South Tianshan and the Kunlunshan. The presence of these hot springs testifies to ongoing hydrothermal activity associated with the tectonic reactivation and uplift of the terranes accreted around the Tarim and the Junggar stable and rigid blocks. This tectonic reactivation is related to the collision of India with Eurasia, during the past 30 million years or so.In this contribution, we describe selected mineral systems1, from hydrothermal to magmatic, of northern Xinjiang, using published literature and our own field observations. The label of northern Xinjiang, means that in this review we focus on the fold belts or orogens that border the northern part of Tarim Block (Tianshan) and surround the Junggar Block (Altay, west and east Junggar). We discuss models that attempt to explain the links of these systems with aspects of the geodynamic evolution of the Altay and Tianshan orogenic belts, in which these mineral systems are located.
    My guess is that TOO MUCH of the wealth is going to people outside of this region hence conflict. However, to be a separatist in Xinjiang is pure suicide. Just look at the map and its location. Yes "The Great Game" is still on but its not going to get far in this part of China.

    China does not play footsie with people that have such ideas.
    Graffic image http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/i...xecution_3.jpg
    and this is not something new
    Graffic image http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6KedtySFz7...na+in+1894.jpg

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Game...ustomerReviews

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  • touchring
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by sutro View Post
    There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

    Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?

    I agree with this. Since there are so many videos and photos (unlike the claim on this thread), the attacks must be real, but the underlying cause must also be examined.

    We live in a world where extremism is now everywhere. I see more in common between the extreme rightists and ISIS than the latter with Islam. Both are financed by behind-the-scene wealthy individuals and countries for political, business and even selfish personal objectives.

    But whatever the reason, war is bad for the economy in the long run, even for the winning side there are long term repercussions.
    Last edited by touchring; August 18, 2014, 11:14 PM.

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  • sutro
    replied
    Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

    Originally posted by touchring View Post
    I wouldn't say that Islam is the root cause - rule number one - don't believe state sanctioned MSM, whichever country.

    The relationship between the Han Chinese and Uighur date back more than a thousand years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

    There's also another Muslim group, the Hui that had been assimilated into the Han Chinese culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization) that they don't look any different from the Han - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

    The Chinese empire expands through sinicization, a cultural assimilation that is not based on religion or even a common language.
    There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

    Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?

    Leave a comment:

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