Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

China in all of its awesomeness also has a problem with violent Islamist extremists.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20074722/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-crisis...-china-1461384

I wouldn't say that Islam is the root cause - rule number one - don't believe state sanctioned MSM, whichever country.

The relationship between the Han Chinese and Uighur date back more than a thousand years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

There's also another Muslim group, the Hui that had been assimilated into the Han Chinese culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization) that they don't look any different from the Han - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

The Chinese empire expands through sinicization, a cultural assimilation that is not based on religion or even a common language.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Thanks for all the fun facts

Interesting that one who claimed injury at ad hominem argument decides to deliver this patronizing and dismissive comment. Consider us even.

but the point I'm trying to make is that Russia and the Soviet Union share a lot of the same foriegn policy objectives because they occupy a lot of the same space. For example, both countries need a warm water port. I don't think this is an original thought and it should not be very controversial.

What Russia is doing is nothing like either the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. If anything Putin is following Bismarck's unification plan for Germany in making a consolidated and relatively stable nation state. Bismark did it for the same reasons, given that before then the Prussians were nothing but divided pawns of the larger nations. And before then the 100 years war between Britain and France can be described as Britain taking advantage of a divided France. Of course nations hate it when there rivals actually cooperate which was why "nationalism " is bad when they say so....

[photon555]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

What's really important here, in an economic sense, is that armaments were deployed, and/or destroyed, and demand was stimulated. Certainly the demand for information was stimulated, and numerous advertisements were sold because of just this one incident, whether it happened or not. Politicians and political parties don't lose elections because of a minor military fiasco, but because "Joe Sixpack has lost his economic wherewithal to purchase his namesake."
What's important in a strategic economic sense is that the FIRE/MIC/TPTB group of non-conspiring moneyed interests have a war, or at least some dependable, despicable enemies so that they have a hope of getting that supplemental defense bill passed, and those foreign aid (military armaments) bills passed as well. It's all about the economy, and the stimulation thereof, and by economy I mean the bottom lines of the largest corporations, and the bonuses of the executive officers, and the bankers of course, and the payoffs to the pols and crats; and don't forget the cronies with their hands out. And it's all good for the rest of the loser classes as well; that tricky trickle down wealth effect I mean; just don't go tasting that golden colored liquid beneficence that has been bestowed upon your crown.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Its not ad hominem. To confuse the USSR with Russia is a fundamental error, and you cannot know anything about the subject. Your latter comment does not demonstrate that you have spent much time in the study of empires. They can be very unstable when the "dominant majority" is outnumbered by either by its vassals or when there is a large rival to the dominant majority as in the case of the Persians vs the Medes or Hungarians vs the Austrians . The Soviet union had more than a hundred different ethnicities. Russia looks completely different to me. The return of the Orthodox church, nostalgia of the Russian empire, Russian national identity etc... If anything its compatible to China that just culturally absorbed its conquerors which was what occurred with the Soviet empire.

Its ironic. Russians suffer a coup , become dominated by the Soviet polyglot empire , only to receive the blame for their own captivity. Now they have to fight the same ethnicities again on their borders as hostile proxies of the West much like the British did to the US with the Native American populations. That is why we had our own "Stalin" known as Andrew Jackson who shipped the Indians to "safer" pastures. When was the last time an honest American ever noticed that comparison? How are the Cherokee any different than deportations to Siberia? The early Unities States is eerily similar to the brutal Eurasian solutions until the US could become sanctimoniously isolated like its British brethren on their island(Britain also be quite brutal before it was consolidated) .

And how could this happen to Russia? How was it invaded from within its own empire?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/41...ation-britain#

The Muslim population of Britain topped 3.3 million by the end of 2013 to become around 5.2% of the overall population of 63 million, according to figures extrapolated from a recent study on the growth of the Muslim population in Europe.

This is how.


And to have say, Latvians complain about the Soviet Union?

http://latvianhistory.com/tag/latvian-riflemen/

The reason why the Latvian Red Rifleman is sometimes called the core of the Red Army and the rescuers of communist revolution was their great discipline and will power. The Red Army units were often unorganized and cowardly. The Soviet commanders lacked talent. So the Soviet leadership sent Latvians to the most troublesome spots of the front where other Red Army units could not handle.

One doesn't see the Latvians taking any heat for the communist revolution . In fact one might say they have done a fine job blaming their victims.

Is this not a fascinating example of what Gibbon warned about.

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap5.htm

THE power of the sword is more sensibly felt in an extensive monarchy than in a small community. It has been calculated by the ablest politicians, that no state, without being soon exhausted, can maintain above the hundredth part of its members in arms and idleness. But although this relative proportion may be uniform, the influence of the army over the rest of the society will vary according to the degree of its positive strength. The advantages of military science and discipline cannot be exerted, unless a proper number of soldiers are united into one body, and actuated by one soul. With a handful of men, such an union would be ineffectual; with an unwieldy hosts it would be impracticable; and the powers of the machine would be alike destroyed by the extreme minuteness, or the excessive weight, of its springs. To illustrate this observation we need only reflect, that there is no superiority of natural strength, artificial weapons, or acquired skill, which could enable one man to keep in constant subjection one hundred of his fellow creatures: the tyrant of a single town, or a small district, would soon discover that an hundred armed followers were a weak defence against ten thousand peasants or citizens; but an hundred thousand well disciplined soldiers will command, with despotic sway, ten millions of subjects; and a body of ten or fifteen thousand guards will strike terror into the most numerous populace that ever crowded the streets of an immense capital.

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Thanks for all the fun facts but the point I'm trying to make is that Russia and the Soviet Union share a lot of the same foriegn policy objectives because they occupy a lot of the same space. For example, both countries need a warm water port. I don't think this is an original thought and it should not be very controversial.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

I'll ignore the ad hominem for the moment while I point out that foriegn policy is driven by mostly by geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union and Russia occupy the same geography (plus or minus a few Republics), therefore they must pursue a similar foriegn policy, over the long run.

Its not ad hominem. To confuse the USSR with Russia is a fundamental error, and you cannot know anything about the subject. Your latter comment does not demonstrate that you have spent much time in the study of empires. They can be very unstable when the "dominant majority" is outnumbered by either by its vassals or when there is a large rival to the dominant majority as in the case of the Persians vs the Medes or Hungarians vs the Austrians . The Soviet union had more than a hundred different ethnicities. Russia looks completely different to me. The return of the Orthodox church, nostalgia of the Russian empire, Russian national identity etc... If anything its compatible to China that just culturally absorbed its conquerors which was what occurred with the Soviet empire.

Its ironic. Russians suffer a coup , become dominated by the Soviet polyglot empire , only to receive the blame for their own captivity. Now they have to fight the same ethnicities again on their borders as hostile proxies of the West much like the British did to the US with the Native American populations. That is why we had our own "Stalin" known as Andrew Jackson who shipped the Indians to "safer" pastures. When was the last time an honest American ever noticed that comparison? How are the Cherokee any different than deportations to Siberia? The early Unities States is eerily similar to the brutal Eurasian solutions until the US could become sanctimoniously isolated like its British brethren on their island(Britain also be quite brutal before it was consolidated) .

And how could this happen to Russia? How was it invaded from within its own empire?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/41...ation-britain#

The Muslim population of Britain topped 3.3 million by the end of 2013 to become around 5.2% of the overall population of 63 million, according to figures extrapolated from a recent study on the growth of the Muslim population in Europe.

This is how.


And to have say, Latvians complain about the Soviet Union?

http://latvianhistory.com/tag/latvian-riflemen/

The reason why the Latvian Red Rifleman is sometimes called the core of the Red Army and the rescuers of communist revolution was their great discipline and will power. The Red Army units were often unorganized and cowardly. The Soviet commanders lacked talent. So the Soviet leadership sent Latvians to the most troublesome spots of the front where other Red Army units could not handle.

One doesn't see the Latvians taking any heat for the communist revolution . In fact one might say they have done a fine job blaming their victims.

Is this not a fascinating example of what Gibbon warned about.

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap5.htm

THE power of the sword is more sensibly felt in an extensive monarchy than in a small community. It has been calculated by the ablest politicians, that no state, without being soon exhausted, can maintain above the hundredth part of its members in arms and idleness. But although this relative proportion may be uniform, the influence of the army over the rest of the society will vary according to the degree of its positive strength. The advantages of military science and discipline cannot be exerted, unless a proper number of soldiers are united into one body, and actuated by one soul. With a handful of men, such an union would be ineffectual; with an unwieldy hosts it would be impracticable; and the powers of the machine would be alike destroyed by the extreme minuteness, or the excessive weight, of its springs. To illustrate this observation we need only reflect, that there is no superiority of natural strength, artificial weapons, or acquired skill, which could enable one man to keep in constant subjection one hundred of his fellow creatures: the tyrant of a single town, or a small district, would soon discover that an hundred armed followers were a weak defence against ten thousand peasants or citizens; but an hundred thousand well disciplined soldiers will command, with despotic sway, ten millions of subjects; and a body of ten or fifteen thousand guards will strike terror into the most numerous populace that ever crowded the streets of an immense capital.

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

[Fox]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Ok, unless attacks on WWII phantom tanks is normal news, can we now send this thread to conspiracy or better still, paranomia, if there's one?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukrai...voy-1408201146

Ukraine Plays Down Significance of Destruction of Russian Military Convoy

umm, it's not a conspiracy theory if it's actually being reported by the mainstream media and claimed by leaders of state. However does the mainstream media or leaders of state have a conspiracy? Well that's for a different thread.

However from your article:

No photographs have surfaced of the aftermath of the attack, which Russia's Defense Ministry dismissed on Friday as "some kind of fantasy." The claim, marking the most direct and publicized military clash between Russia and Ukraine since the conflict began

I think Mike Sheddock hits the nail on the head here:
Let's Play "Telephone"!

In the game of Telephone, someone, typically sitting around the campfire, whispers a phrase to the next person who in turn whispers the phrase to the next person until the message is passed to the final person who reports what he heard.

The Ukraine military think that down playing this lends it credibility? This is the big smoking gun they've been wanting to unite the world against Russia. The fact that no proof is given and they are actually trying to sweep it under the rug shows that Mike, and Russia's Defense Ministry, is right; this is a fantasy.

So there is a third option I can add to my list:
C) Nothing actually happened and this is a become a huge clusterf*ck brought on by incompetent leaders and reporters.

And to think, they've actually managed to drag Markel and Hollande into this fiasco. Lots of faces with lots of eggs to go around. Couldn't happen to a better crowd actually.

Too bad innocent people are still being bombed and shelled while all these A$$hats play school yard politics.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

This is possible but the situation then and now is different. Today, China is going to be the largest market (if not already the largest market) and growing at double digit, might even catch up with the EU + US combined. I've not even covered other countries that will adopt a neutral stance like India, Brazil, South Africa, etc. And in the meantime, the US and NATO are stuck in fighting with Islamic extremists that can't die.

With so many emerging powers, the situation today is whichever power goes into an outright war eventually loses as we have seen from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukraine. Your loss is my gain.




I wonder if the troops and the rebels are equipped for winter battle. I read that the Germans didn't.

China in all of its awesomeness also has a problem with violent Islamist extremists.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20074722/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-crisis...-china-1461384

I wonder who really benefits from all from the chaos in the Euraison Heartland? Those who live closest to it?

The Urkanians and the Russians are fighting on the own turf, by the way, so I don't think they will neglect winter kit.

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Anytime anyone mixes up the Soviet Union and Russia I know they are basically ignorant.

I'll ignore the ad hominem for the moment while I point out that foriegn policy is driven by mostly by geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union and Russia occupy the same geography (plus or minus a few Republics), therefore they must pursue a similar foriegn policy, over the long run.

This is possible but the situation then and now is different. Today, China is going to be the largest market (if not already the largest market) and growing at double digit, might even catch up with the EU + US combined. I've not even covered other countries that will adopt a neutral stance like India, Brazil, South Africa, etc. And in the meantime, the US and NATO are stuck in fighting with Islamic extremists that can't die.

With so many emerging powers, the situation today is whichever power goes into an outright war eventually loses as we have seen from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukraine. Your loss is my gain.

Russian tanks got slaughtered in urban situations in Chechnya. A lot of this was poor employment, but yes, urban warfare is not a main strength of armor. Doubt the rain would have much effect once in the city but in the countryside it can. But Russia invading Ukraine is not the same as Germany invading Soviet Union in 1941. Distances involved and the infrastructure involved are vastly different. General Mud will not save anyone.

I wonder if the troops and the rebels are equipped for winter battle. I read that the Germans didn't.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

[QUOTE=gwynedd1;284733]Anytime anyone mixes up the Soviet Union and Russia I know they are basically ignorant.

I'll ignore the ad hominem for the moment while I point out that foriegn policy is driven by mostly by geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union and Russia occupy the same geography (plus or minus a few Republics), therefore they must pursue a similar foriegn policy, over the long run.

[flintlock]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Russian tanks got slaughtered in urban situations in Chechnya. A lot of this was poor employment, but yes, urban warfare is not a main strength of armor. Doubt the rain would have much effect once in the city but in the countryside it can. But Russia invading Ukraine is not the same as Germany invading Soviet Union in 1941. Distances involved and the infrastructure involved are vastly different. General Mud will not save anyone.

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Ok, unless attacks on WWII phantom tanks is normal news, can we now send this thread to conspiracy or better still, paranomia, if there's one?


http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukrai...voy-1408201146

Ukraine Plays Down Significance of Destruction of Russian Military Convoy

Col. Andriy Lysenko, the Ukrainian government's security spokesman, said Saturday that Ukrainian artillery had destroyed most of a Russian column of military vehicles that entered the country earlier in the week. But he described the episode as a commonplace incident, refused to release further details and gave no indication that it marked the start of a more direct military engagement between Russia and Ukraine.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Saturday called on Moscow to respond to reportsthat tanks and troops had crossed from Russia into Ukraine. Ms. Merkel spoke on the phone with Mr. Poroshenko, and the two said arms deliveries from Russian territory to pro-Russia rebels in Ukraine should stop.

"If the Russians want to invade Ukraine, they will have to do so in the next six weeks. The autumn rains will turn the border into a mudslide by October and disable their tanks."

I'm no military person, but my common sense tells me that tanks are less effective for urban siege warfare especially in rainy and winter season.

I'm sure Putin is smart enough and patient enough to know that if he just sits back the West will screw-up on their own accord with out any help from him.

Putin doesn't need to invade, he just has to wait another 6-8 weeks.... Look at what's happening?

https://news.vice.com/article/vice-news-live-from-the-streets-of-ferguson-missouri - it's interesting to note that Ferguson is a featured topic along with Gaza, Islamic State and Ukraine.

MSM is not telling you the truth about IS. Five year-olds are taught to hate the West. Watch this video and you'll know that the Islamic state is going to be a really huge one in a couple years.

https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length

[vt]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

"If the Russians want to invade Ukraine, they will have to do so in the next six weeks. The autumn rains will turn the border into a mudslide by October and disable their tanks."

George Friedman, Stratfor

[Shakespear]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

So are we suppose to believe that an entire convoy of tanks was destroyed and vaporized into thin air with no trace, no bodies, no photos.

YES, because the president of Ukraine said so.

1. This morning Ukraine military’s spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, shocked the world when newswires reported that Ukraine forces had attacked an armed convoy from Russia, and "destroyed" a part of it. This was subsequently reiterated by the president of Ukraine himself who said that "the given information was trustworthy and confirmed because the majority of that machines had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night", and by the secretary-general of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who said that the alliance had detected an “incursion” of vehicles from Russia last night, adding that “what we have seen last night is the continuation of what we have seen for some time." Alas, as in the case above, just more verbal reports, with zero actual evidence.

http://www.zerocred.com/news/2014-08-15/did-ukraine-attack-its-own-tanks-white-house-cant-confirm-russian-convoy-was-destroy

I suggest moving this thread to conspiracy as well. LOL

Are you suggesting the President of Ukraine is into conspiracy theories Impossible Touching impossible.

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

So are we suppose to believe that an entire convoy of tanks was destroyed and vaporized into thin air with no trace, no bodies, no photos. Another MH370?

I suggest moving this thread to conspiracy as well. LOL

[Shakespear]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Now I would laugh if this turned out to be true,
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...oy-was-destroy

Anytime anyone mixes up the Soviet Union and Russia I know they are basically ignorant.

Right on the money. This is a tough for people to fathom having been brought up on FOXNews type of information sources. For those who do not know what we mean please hit the books. Even then it takes a little time to be fully cognizant of why you want to make the distinction in any discussion. Soviet Union at its inception was NOT ruled by Russians. Due to "conspiracy policy" issues I will let you do the rest of the homework. Homework which is well worth doing because the tentacles come right back to our front yard.

Was Czechoslovakia a poor helpless puppet of the mean Germans?

I'm glad you are calling a spade a spade. What am I talking about? It was not the Nazis that invaded Czechoslovakia or Fascist as is some times said, but Germans. This word game is played to frequently that I suspect some people think there is a country called Naziland. Same goes for Al Qaeda. "Al Qaeda attacked bla bla bla ....", which Al Qaeda? Anyone checked their party membership card and if dues were paid ? Words are often used that are complete rubbish in what meaning they convey, but to be sure meaning is being conveyed. A False meaning.

Choices of Words is very important. Look into the concept of "memes" to better understand this.

And if the Soviet Union was not a Russian empire gone bad and turned against them, how do you explain a Georgist dictator who deported Russians into Kazakhstan? How do you explain most of the Soviet leadership being minorities? How do you explain the longest run being Ukrainian Soviet premiers? How do you explain targeting Russian culture like the Orthodox church, Korenizatsiya and "great russian chauvinism" = bad. Who was the puppet to whom? were the poor Czechoslovakian's, Hungarians and Romanians killing Soviets just poor puppets of the Germans , but not Russians Soviet puppets of a Eurasian polygot?

gwynedd1, your piling on the poor souls too much homework :-) Most do not even understand well their own history. On a positive, want to better understand what is happening today in the world, then start to read history. Chose a book and go to Amazon comment section. Start with those giving very low ratings as this will frequently give you a clue where the controversies lie. The rest is your own thinking, analysis and critical reading of the information presented.

As to this attack on military vehicles, same ole' same ole', where is the evidence. I thought this was the world where satellites can see golf-balls from outer-space

Why would Putin send a convoy of tanks into Ukraine (in the same manner as the armored convoy rolling down the Red Square) at a time when there are hundreds of reporters from all over the world watching the border and the relief convoy?

Rush Lymbough would probable say because he is a crazy warmonger. On a serious side, most people do not have the reflex to pose such a question after a rich diet of FoxNews/CNN for 24/7. Once a label (meme) has been attached to something critical thinking is disengaged.

I find it amazing that few see an issue with a BILLIONAIRE running a country. I am still on topic, I am referring to Poroshenko.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...o-run-ukraine/
A "self-made man". Foreign Policy Journal is a good agitprop to learn how to make a snake into a lamb .

I wouldn't believe this Poroshenko if he was talking about what he ate for breakfast. If we have problems with leaders having mistressis then I would think we should have problems with "leaders" who amass huge fortunes in dirt poor countries like Ukraine through violence and corruption. Well it isn't so because he is an "entrepreneur" and "knows how business works". Yepp, same ole memes. A good example of a criminal in a nice suite who hasn't done ANYTHING for Ukrainians except milk them dry. And he and his buddies had over 20 years to do it.
http://balkanblog.org/2014/07/26/wea...sociated-with/

A good book to understand something about Soviet Union and Russia maybe this
http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Empir...DateDescending