Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

[c1ue]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

I'd note that the dimensions of the equation aren't just Turkey/Syria/NATO/US.

Turkey historically has been an enemy of Russia; of late there was some attempt at normalization, but most recently the economic conflicts have come back into the fore again.

Russia's historical issues with Turkey have to do with Black Sea access to the Med; on top of that there are now all sorts of pipeline rivalries in/around the Black Sea in which Turkey is one of the focal points.

Thus this Syria/Turkey incident may or may not be a symptom of internal Turkish maneuvering, but also might be a way for Turkey to add some new cards to its hand with respect to South Stream/Nabucco. Certainly Nabucco seems to need some help...

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=139499

Map by Nabucco Consortium
Turkish Energy Minister Taner Yildiz has echoed the proposal of the Nabucco Consortium for downsizing the previously ambitious EU-sponsored gas transit pipeline project, Nabucco.
Turkey's energy and natural resources minister said on Friday that it would not be appropriate to say that the Nabucco project was over, as cited by The Journal of Turkish Weekly.
Taner Yildiz said the project would probably survive as "Nabucco West" - a smaller, shorter pipeline, widely thought likely to begin at the Bulgarian-Turkish border rather than in Azerbaijan.
"In the end I believe whatever the name of the project is, it is more important that it is do-able," Yildiz told an interview with the Financial Times.
Yildiz said it was more realistic to begin with the Azebaijan-Turkey route, TANAP (Azerbaijan-Turkish Trans Anatolian gas pipeline), which could be linked up with another pipeline to bring gas to other European markets.
By the end of next month Ankara will conclude an agreement with Azerbaijan to set up a new pipeline to transport gas from the Caspian state's giant Shah Deniz field, Yildiz said.
"There is now no obstacle to the Shah Deniz project," he also said.
Yildiz's comments follow an announcement last month by Viktor Orb?n, Hungary's prime minister, that Mol, the Hungarian oil and gas company, was pulling out of the Nabucco consortium.
Orb?n said Nabucco was "in trouble", largely because of a rival pipeline promoted by Russia. Other companies in the Nabucco consortium, which include RWE of Germany and OMV of Austria, have already floated the idea of the slimmed down Nabucco west scheme.
Nabucco was supposed to become the new gas bridge from Asia to Europe and the flagship project in the Southern Gas and Energy Corridor.
The pipeline was planned to link the Eastern border of Turkey, to Baumgarten in Austria - one of the most important gas facilities in Central Europe - via Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary, thus circumventing Russia.
The Nabucco Consortium presented Wednesday a revised, smaller version of the gas pipeline project called Nabucco West to the consortium developing the Shah Deniz II gas field in Azerbaijan.
The original pipeline was 3,900 kilometers long and ran from the Eastern border of Turkey to Baumgarten in Austria.
The Nabucco project aimed at lessening Europe's energy dependence on Russian energy was supposed to achieve a gas transport capacity of 31 billion cubic metres (bcm) a year.
Nabucco's shareholders are Austria's OMV, Germany's RWE, Hungary's MOL, Turkey's Botas, Bulgaria's Bulgarian Energy Holding (BEH) and Romania's Transgaz.
MOL and RWE have questioned the feasibility of the original version of Nabucco, threatening to leave the project company.

[D-Mack]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

It's interesting, I didn't know Turkey had so many F4's.
Why would you fly such a jet so close or in Syiria's territory, when Israel showed how to do it in 2007.
Maybe Russia also closed some loopholes for hacking their radar.

debkafile’s military experts add: This was also the first time in five years any weapons system with Israeli manufacturing input had faced a Russian weapon acquired by Syria.
The first time was September 6, 2007, when Israeli fighter-bombers demolished the Iranian-North Korean-built nuclear reactor in the northern Syrian town of Al-Kibar. Airspace over the reactor was guarded by Russian Pantsyr-S1 anti-air missiles. Israeli bombers got through by disabling the Russian missiles’ radar so that Damascus never realized its reactor was being bombed until it had been smashed and Israeli bombers were home.

Five years later, Turkey has lost a Super Phantom which had undergone partial upgrading by the Israeli Aerospace Industry. However, two years ago, Ankara broke off its security and military ties with Jerusalem after a clash at sea between Turkish Mavi Marmara and Israel troops wich intercepted the vessel on its way to break Israel’s Gaza blockade, leaving nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists dead.

http://www.debka.com/article/22112/N...rkish-warplane

According to news reports, the raid was carried out by Israeli Air Force (IAF) 69 Squadron F-15Is,^[11] F-16Is, and an ELINT aircraft; as many as eight aircraft participated and at least four of these crossed into Syrian airspace.^[12] The fighters were equipped with AGM-65 Maverick missiles, 500 lb bombs, and external fuel tanks.^[2][13] One report stated that a team of elite Israeli Shaldag special-forces commandos arrived at the site the day before so that they could highlight the target with laser beams,^[11] while a later report identified Sayeret Matkal special-forces commandos as involved.^[14]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

We know Special Forces are inside Syria

Damascus, June 3 (ANI): British defense chiefs have made secret plans to provide safe havens to refugees escaping the Assad regime in Syria.
British Army's Special Air Services (SAS) and M16, who are in Syria, will help protect the refugees in Syria along that country's borders, The Daily Star reports.
SAS troops and MI6 agents are also ready to help rebels if a civil war breaks out as is expected this weekend.
They also have hi-tech satellite computers and radios that can instantly send back photos and details of refugees and Assad's forces as the situation develops.
The British troops would be part of an international force -including French and Turkish soldiers and possibly Americans.
http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsde...refugees-.html


SAS in Syria to guard MI6 spies on missions

Mar 18 2012 by Thomas Carlin, The People
SAS teams are helping guard British spies on top-secret missions in Syria.
The elite Who Dares Wins troops are “riding shotgun” with MI6 agents and on 24-hour alert to evacuate any who find *themselves in trouble.
The agents are engaged on dangerous missions to deliver hi-tech equipment to the Free Syria Army, which is fighting to overthrow President Bashar Assad.
http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-worl...2039-23792367/

[D-Mack]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

I'd note that the dimensions of the equation aren't just Turkey/Syria/NATO/US.

Turkey historically has been an enemy of Russia; of late there was some attempt at normalization, but most recently the economic conflicts have come back into the fore again.

Russia's historical issues with Turkey have to do with Black Sea access to the Med; on top of that there are now all sorts of pipeline rivalries in/around the Black Sea in which Turkey is one of the focal points.

Thus this Syria/Turkey incident may or may not be a symptom of internal Turkish maneuvering, but also might be a way for Turkey to add some new cards to its hand with respect to South Stream/Nabucco. Certainly Nabucco seems to need some help...

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=139499

I think BTC would be more interesting, if routed through Syrian territory instead of the sea to Israel's port

Possible transhipment via Israel

It has been proposed that oil from the BTC pipeline be transported to eastern Asia via the Israeli oil terminals at Ashkelon and Eilat, the overland trans-Israel sector being bridged by the Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline owned by the Eilat Ashkelon Pipeline Company (EAPC).^[20][21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku–Tb...eyhan_pipeline

Also interesting is that Syria is losing it's access to the sea in Ralph Peter's solution the Mideast
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...to_Mideast.jpg

[metalman]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

I think BTC would be more interesting, if routed through Syrian territory instead of the sea to Israel's port


Also interesting is that Syria is losing it's access to the sea in Ralph Peter's solution the Mideast
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...to_Mideast.jpg

today turkey claims that syria shot at its search & rescue planes.

intense fighting just outside the syrian capital.

[c1ue]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

Interesting point by Conn Hallinan in Counterpunch:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/...d-the-phantom/

But the Phantom—eyewitnesses told Turkish television that there were two aircraft, but there is no official confirmation of that observation—was hardly on a Sunday outing. According to the Financial Times, Turkey’s Foreign Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, told the newspaper “the jet was on a test and training mission focused on Turkey’s radar defense, rather than Syria.”

Translation: the F-4 was “lighting up” a radar net. It is a common—if dangerous and illegal—tactic that allows one to probe an opponent’s radar system. Most combat radar is kept in a passive mode to prevent a potential enemy from mapping out weaknesses or blind spots that can be useful in the advent of an attack. The probes also give you valuable information on how to neutralize anti-aircraft guns and ground to air missiles.

“Lighting up” radar was what the US Navy EP-3E Aries II was doing near China’s Hainan Island when it collided with a Chinese interceptor in 2001. Nations normally take a very dim view of warplanes entering their air space, particularly if there is tension between the countries involved.

...

It is doubtful that Syria indentified exactly what the Turkish plane was, just that an unidentified warplane, flying low—generally the altitude one takes when trying to avoid radar—was in Syrian airspace. Paranoia? In 2007 Israeli warplanes—US-made F-16s, not Phantoms—slipped through Syria’s radar net and bombed a suspected nuclear reactor.

[Shakespear]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

.......its about the West, they broke & about to lose control of the World.....

Mega - another to the point Video. Well done mate. This was one of my favorite groups and I remember this tune. The only problem was that at the time I was too busy dancing to listen to the message and the messenger.

[Bundi]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

Interesting point by Conn Hallinan in Counterpunch:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/...d-the-phantom/

Secretary Clinton "subtly" adding to the tension.

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...08/225166.html

“The sooner there can be an end to the violence and a beginning of a political transition process, not only will fewer people die, but there is a chance to save the Syrian state from a catastrophic assault that would be very dangerous not only to Syria but to the region,” Clinton said at a news conference.

[D-Mack]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

Secretary Clinton "subtly" adding to the tension.

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...08/225166.html

“The sooner there can be an end to the violence and a beginning of a political transition process, not only will fewer people die, but there is a chance to save the Syrian state from a catastrophic assault that would be very dangerous not only to Syria but to the region,” Clinton said at a news conference.

No electricity, but we got Katie Couric

Putting a Megawatt Smile on a Simmering Problem


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/wo...pagewanted=all

I wonder if they ever reveal how the jet was downed

The government had earlier said the jet was shot down by a missile 13 miles off the Syrian coast. Syria, on the other hand, has said it was flying low, at an altitude of 100 meters, and fast when it was hit well within the Syrian airspace by antiaircraft fire, with bullets having a range of only 2.5 kilometers.

The controversy had assumed a new dimension when The Wall Street Journal newspaper quoted US defense officials as saying that the plane was hit within Syrian airspace, disputing the Turkish account of the incident.

Separately, in remarks published on Wednesday, a senior US official was quoted as saying that the US has information about circumstances surrounding the jet incident but is not planning to make them public.

The official, who spoke to the Hürriyet daily on condition of anonymity, said whether the plane was hit over the Syrian territorial waters or international waters did not matter to the US. “What matters to us is that it was downed,” the official said, adding that it was a mystery why the defense official quoted in the Wall Street Journal report said what he said.

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=22816

[flintlock]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

My first guess was that this was a test of the Syrian air defense system, possibly at the behest of NATO, that got a little too close to the fire. I think with these missile systems, you never really know exactly where that knife edge is until they are used in a real life conflict. Version 3.4 might be just that little bit better than V 3.3. Now they know!

AAA? That would surprise me a bit. Not that it can't be done, but why would a Turkish jet put itself in that position? Recon? Is that type of recon flight still done? Over one of the thickest AA concentrations on earth? I like the USA response, that it doesn't matter either way. So we get to pick how can and cannot defend their own airspace huh?

[c1ue]

Re: Syria shoots down Turkish F-4 over territorial waters

AAA? That would surprise me a bit. Not that it can't be done, but why would a Turkish jet put itself in that position? Recon? Is that type of recon flight still done? Over one of the thickest AA concentrations on earth?

John Helmer has said that the shootdown was via cannon, so indeed AAA. No evidence was presented for this, however, so veracity unknown.