China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

[lektrode]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

...Immigration and multiculturalism are 2 different things. Don't get those mixed up. A failure of either of them are BTW due to the government/oligarchs as well.

oh come on - the 'open border' policy or out-of-control immigration - whatever you want to call it, coupled with the liberal fantasy of diversity-worship is an UNMITIGATED DISASTER for not only The US, but The UK, Denmark, Sweden, and even Switzerland, who'll you'll note has recently banned the construction of more minarets - never mind when even the french have gone so far as banning the burkah in their public schools?

What? Political backlash my ass. The manufacturers were pissed they had to pay so much to the workers instead of taking more for themselves so they conciously lobbied the gov. and established astroturf campaigns to "reform the gov". The only problem is it worked a little too well and now they've created a monster that is not only going to ruin the country it will ultimately ruin themselves.
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and the 'political backlash' hasnt even begun in The US - the election in 2008 proved just how far dumbed-down the liberal elite has brought the electorate in this country - we'll see just how stoopud they are next year...

[mesyn191]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

oh come on - the 'open border' policy or out-of-control immigration - whatever you want to call it, coupled with the liberal fantasy of diversity-worship is an UNMITIGATED DISASTER for not only The US

I can't speak for EU countries since I don't know enough about them the "out of control immigration" is the least of the US's worries. FAR more has been done by our gov. to ruin our country than anything the large numbers of immigrants, legal or otherwise, have done. The fact is you could kick out every immigrant in the US going back 10 years and our economy would still be in the shitter. Immigration/"diversity worship" = red herring by corportists to distract you from their efforts to cash in at the middle/poor classes expense. Congrats on being played for a sucker I guess.

and the 'political backlash' hasnt even begun in The US - the election in 2008 proved just how far dumbed-down the liberal elite has brought the electorate in this country - we'll see just how stoopud they are next year...

Liberal elite? Doesn't really exist in the US. Politically there is no Left or Right, only 2 sides of the same corrupt coin who say whatever they have to in order to stay in power and get fat stacks of cash. Obama and the Dems are about as Left as Bush was and are in fact farther right on most everything than Regan or even Nixon were.

[bungee]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

To debate the issue, the rights and entitlements that bungee and yourself speak of need to be defined before we find ourselves giving up the right to free speech, demonstrate in public, vote, fair trial, etc

I always thought that rights come hand in hand with responsibilities.

The right to unemployment benefit comes with the responsibility to genuinely look for and accept work now, today.

However it is well documented that many unemployed people on benefit don’t find work until just before their benefit ends. Unfortunately it seems in the UK that many of these benefits never end and it’s possible to transition from a life on benefits straight into state funded retirement.

I guess the right to free speech must come with the responsibility to tell the truth and not preach hate, spread lies etc but there may well be a better responsibility to match it.

I’m not against rights excepts where people take the right but drop the responsibility.

At some point the Wests debts have to be removed, either by default or inflation, as they are just too big for their economies to carry and remain competitive.

I think what frustrates Mega is that the majority of people don’t see this coming. They think they are going to live the next 10-20-40 years like the last 10-20-40 years. As someone who has spent the time to educate himself and live a less financially irresponsible life I suspect Mega would like to see justice asap for those who have abused the privilege (and rights) they have had.


I fear as always that it will be those like Mega who have lived responsibly that will carry the burden while as llanlad2 highlights the elite ruling class will walk away with the spoils again. However with the internet one hopes things will not be so simple for the elite this time round, which explains why Sarkozy is so keen to censor the internet.

[Raz]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

Manufacturing was lost long before the Neoconservatives came to power and that created a problem: how can production increase so as to feed the ever expanding welfare state? One answer offered was free trade (I assume that's what you mean by "sold out"). It's cheaper to let Chinese do the work and pay idle (or underproductive) Americans than it is to pay American labor engaged in manufacturing.

Without free trade, American beneficiaries of the welfare state would have a much lower standard of living.

At the end of WWII the United States had by far the largest industrial and manufacturing base in the world.
And on top of this, European and Japanese industry was mostly destroyed, and we had almost all of the gold so the world was pretty much our oyster. It was inevitable that Germany and Japan would rebuild their industrial base and once again become fierce competitors. Labor demanded and received more and more and more all through the 1950s and 1960s, and together with the Vietnam War and "Daddy Bird's" Great Society there was hell to pay during the 1970s. I lived through these events.

Human nature (fallen) being what it is, greed comes quite naturally to the vast majority of any population.
And contrary to academic prognosticators, the mainstream media and the Left, greed is not an exclusive property of Right-wing industrialists, bankers and real estate developers. Organized Labor is likewise infected - they've simply had their teeth pulled over the last tweny-five years.

Neocons believe in "Empire"; Paleoconservatives do not.
I'm all for Free Trade as long as it's free for all sides.
But not the crapola that we've had for the past eighteen years.

[Raz]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

The reason why they have so many people "sucking on the gov. teat" is because due to the FIRE economy over there which has devastated local businesses. This is a systemic issue and who influences if not controls the system in the UK right now? The people living on the gov. teat? No, that is the FIRE oligarchs.

Its the same thing over here in the US. Some people want to blame the victims instead of holding the gov. and the oligarchs to blame.

And some people want to declare almost everyone a victim. I'm not buying it.
But I agree with you about the oligarchs owning the CONgress, not to mention the criminals running the Treasury and the Fed.

Immigration and multiculturalism are 2 different things

. Don't get those mixed up. A failure of either of them are BTW due to the government/oligarchs as well.

When you have an unarmed invasion (for the most part) of the United States by MILLIONS of aliens - illegal aliens - many of whom have no desire to become Americans, and a large lobby within the United States saying that our borders should simply be opened, then we can look forward to greater and greater destabilization of our nation. So in my opinion the multiculturalists are lobbyists for this invasion, and if these are not the same problem they have become first cousins.

What? Political backlash my ass. The manufacturers were pissed they had to pay so much to the workers instead of taking more for themselves so they conciously lobbied the gov. and established astroturf campaigns to "reform the gov". The only problem is it worked a little too well and now they've created a monster that is not only going to ruin the country it will ultimately ruin themselves.
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Your ass, indeed. What do you think the Reagan Era was if not backlash against the ever rising tax and regulatory burden on the small business sector, the rampant inflation and ubiquitous intrusion of the Federal government into most areas of American life?
The manufacturers had been lobbying the Federal government since the time of Cleveland and McKinley. Astroturf campaigns?

Don't get the manufacturers mixed in with the F.I.R.E industry.

[mesyn191]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

And some people want to declare almost everyone a victim. I'm not buying it.

If your gov. goes to crap than most everyone who isn't in some way protected from abuse in that system can indeed become a victim. The middle/poor classes make up the majority of the population of both countries and they're the ones being exploited so there you go.

When you have an unarmed invasion (for the most part) of the United States by MILLIONS of aliens - illegal aliens - many of whom have no desire to become Americans, and a large lobby within the United States saying that our borders should simply be opened, then we can look forward to greater and greater destabilization of our nation. So in my opinion the multiculturalists are lobbyists for this invasion, and if these are not the same problem they have become first cousins.

I think you're being overly harsh there with the "invasion" characterization. Lots of them are illegals, which is not good for various reasons, but they wouldn't be here at all if their country's economy was better off and their gov. was less corrupt. You can't really expect people to just sit and watch their family in destitution if they know they can get some money by working a few hundred miles across the border. That is all most of them want. They don't want to become Americans, but they also don't want to invade, just get some cash by working and go back and settle somewhere decent in their own country where they're at least accepted and can speak the language.

Personally I think we should have the bracero programs brought back which I think would be great both from a humanitarian perspective as well as a legal and economic one.

Your ass, indeed. What do you think the Reagan Era was if not backlash against the ever rising tax and regulatory burden on the small business sector, the rampant inflation and ubiquitous intrusion of the Federal government into most areas of American life?

Regan Era was the rise of the FIRE economy IMO, and as near as I can tell EJ's too. Rampant inflation was a result of the gov's actions years earlier and "ubiquitous intrusion of the Federal gov. + ever rising taxes on small businesses" would be the astro turf I'm talking about. Its not that there aren't issues with those things per se, but molehills were turned into mountains for politicians to stand and bray on and unfortunately the masses ate it up. It distracted people from real issues and from the establishment of the FIRE economy and the suppression of Pro Labor movements.

[Shakespear]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

The time will come for China downgrading as their great projects will go down .... the drink.

China crisis over Yangtze river drought forces drastic dam measures Severe drought has forced China to release 5bn cubic metres from Three Gorges reservoir for irrigation and drinking water

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...is-yangtze-dam

[unlucky]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

I'm an American so I won't comment specifically about social and economic conditions in the United Kingdom. It's hard enough to understand the truth about one's own country without claiming to understand that of another.

As for what I see in the United States - you are both correct.

Those who lived as adults through the 1960s and 70s in the United States would have to be willfully blind to not see what bungee described - "a culture of takers who are currently bleeding the country of its life blood with their 'rights' and 'entitlements'.
We now have a failing / failed education system (explains a lot)
A failed immigration system (aka multiculturalism)"

At the same time I very much agree with your indictment of the "elites" - both financial and political - and their looting of the United States.

The unbridled greed of the Labor Unions throughout the 1950s and 60s together with the overexpansion of the welfare state created a political backlash in the United States that was eventually captured, not by Conservatives, but by the Neoconservatives who sold the manufacturers out in favor of the F.I.R.E interests. The Neocons are also defenders of maintaining the American Empire (as long as their sons don't have to be the ones getting their legs blown off).

Multiculturalism is the favored plaything of the elites in the United States.
They are fools, but not as big as the voters who allow this form of national suicide.

The United States has plenty of people to blame for the mess we find ourselves in; and they are ALL Americans.

All good points. In most societies there's a class of people who are "professional welfare recipients", who won't work except when it comes to figuring out how to maximize their benefits.

But this is a fairly small class of people, and one that has always been around. Before the advent of state welfare they were beggars or criminals. (Psychologically they have a lot in common with bankers, they only lack money and privilege).

Unemployment has gone up by factors of 3 or 4 in many western nations due to the crisis. That suggests that 75% of the currently unemployed are people who would work if they could. The biggest problem we have is the destruction of normally productive citizens.

[touchring]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

The time will come for China downgrading as their great projects will go down .... the drink.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...is-yangtze-dam

In China, famine and capitalism has co-existed for centuries. A thousand years ago, merchants and middle class in port cities in the south dress in silk and dine on meats and wine everyday while people in the arid interior starve to death and exchange children for cannibalism.

1 million people in the interior of China can die of starvation, but people in Shanghai still can drink $200 brandy, speculate in real estate, and the factories in Shenzhen continue churning out iphones.

[Shakespear]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

Yes, China is "special".

I especially found it entertaining how from Communist Central Planning economy they found it possible to cobble everything to work well with Capitalist countries. My friends never liked my jokes that we are doing business with a Communist country that used to be behind the Iron Wall and was our sworn enemy (I still think they are).

[Raz]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

If your gov. goes to crap than most everyone who isn't in some way protected from abuse in that system can indeed become a victim. The middle/poor classes make up the majority of the population of both countries and they're the ones being exploited so there you go.


I think you're being overly harsh there with the "invasion" characterization. Lots of them are illegals, which is not good for various reasons, but they wouldn't be here at all if their country's economy was better off and their gov. was less corrupt. You can't really expect people to just sit and watch their family in destitution if they know they can get some money by working a few hundred miles across the border. That is all most of them want. They don't want to become Americans, but they also don't want to invade, just get some cash by working and go back and settle somewhere decent in their own country where they're at least accepted and can speak the language.

Personally I think we should have the bracero programs brought back which I think would be great both from a humanitarian perspective as well as a legal and economic one.


Regan Era was the rise of the FIRE economy IMO, and as near as I can tell EJ's too. Rampant inflation was a result of the gov's actions years earlier and "ubiquitous intrusion of the Federal gov. + ever rising taxes on small businesses" would be the astro turf I'm talking about. Its not that there aren't issues with those things per se, but molehills were turned into mountains for politicians to stand and bray on and unfortunately the masses ate it up. It distracted people from real issues and from the establishment of the FIRE economy and the suppression of Pro Labor movements.

The Middle Class in the United States is being robbed, raped and left for dead. Bernanke and the banksters, through their bought and paid for whores (Spencer Bachus, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Paulson, Geithner, Graham, Rubin, Summers, and the list goes on and on and on...) are flaying the hide off of wage earners, small savers and the elderly. In a somewhat better age they would have been guillotined. The poor seem to have a lobby, the rich own most of the CONgress, but the Middle Classes are the forgotten man.

When I see thousands upon thousands of "undocumented immigrants" (How Orwellian: I suppose that we'll begin referring to the neighborhood drug-dealer as an "unlicensed pharmacist"!) marching through our streets carrying Mexican flags and signs saying "America: You OWE me", I don't think I'm being nearly harsh enough. There are American citizens whose property in the state of Arizona is being overun and rendered unusable, whose homes are no longer safe because of illegal aliens, whose friends and relatives are assaulted and even murdered by these invaders. How would you describe the [American] government that refuses to protect them?

If by "bracero" you mean a guest worker program, i'm all for it. BUT, NOT until the border is closed, secured and truly defended - even if we have to place an Army division there, and if necessary, shoot people.
This anarchy on our southern border simply has to stop.

As for your last paragraph: we're either talking past each other, or you're confusing cause with effect. "Backlash" was the cause; the F.I.R.E. economy is the effect.

[Master Shake]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

The Middle Class in the United States is being robbed, raped and left for dead. Bernanke and the banksters, through their bought and paid for whores (Spencer Bachus, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Paulson, Geithner, Graham, Rubin, Summers, and the list goes on and on and on...) are flaying the hide off of wage earners, small savers and the elderly. In a somewhat better age they would have been guillotined. The poor seem to have a lobby, the rich own most of the CONgress, but the Middle Classes are the forgotten man.

When I see thousands upon thousands of "undocumented immigrants" (How Orwellian: I suppose that we'll begin referring to the neighborhood drug-dealer as an "unlicensed pharmacist"!) marching through our streets carrying Mexican flags and signs saying "America: You OWE me", I don't think I'm being nearly harsh enough. There are American citizens whose property in the state of Arizona is being overun and rendered unusable, whose homes are no longer safe because of illegal aliens, whose friends and relatives are assaulted and even murdered by these invaders. How would you describe the [American] government that refuses to protect them?

If by "bracero" you mean a guest worker program, i'm all for it. BUT, NOT until the border is closed, secured and truly defended - even if we have to place an Army division there, and if necessary, shoot people.
This anarchy on our southern border simply has to stop.

As for your last paragraph: we're either talking past each other, or you're confusing cause with effect. "Backlash" was the cause; the F.I.R.E. economy is the effect.

C. H. Smith wrote an excellent essay on this topic in September of last year: Entitlements, Taxes, Inequality and Three-Way Class Warfare.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogsept10...fare09-10.html

BTW, the term "undocumented immigrant" is being further euphemized. The preferred term among the PC is now "New Americans."

[lektrode]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

...Rampant inflation was a result of the gov's actions years earlier and "ubiquitous intrusion of the Federal gov. + ever rising taxes on small businesses" .... mountains for politicians to stand and bray on ....

hey! eye like the way you put that.

and which beast doth 'bray' ?

[lektrode]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

The Middle Class in the United States is being robbed, raped and left for dead. Bernanke and the banksters, through their bought and paid for whores (Spencer Bachus, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Paulson, Geithner, Graham, Rubin, Summers, and the list goes on and on and on...) are flaying the hide off of wage earners, small savers and the elderly. In a somewhat better age they would have been guillotined. The poor seem to have a lobby, the rich own most of the CONgress, but the Middle Classes are the forgotten man.

When I see thousands upon thousands of "undocumented immigrants" (How Orwellian: I suppose that we'll begin referring to the neighborhood drug-dealer as an "unlicensed pharmacist"!) marching through our streets carrying Mexican flags and signs saying "America: You OWE me", I don't think I'm being nearly harsh enough. There are American citizens whose property in the state of Arizona is being overun and rendered unusable, whose homes are no longer safe because of illegal aliens, whose friends and relatives are assaulted and even murdered by these invaders. How would you describe the [American] government that refuses to protect them?

If by "bracero" you mean a guest worker program, i'm all for it. BUT, NOT until the border is closed, secured and truly defended - even if we have to place an Army division there, and if necessary, shoot people.
This anarchy on our southern border simply has to stop.

As for your last paragraph: we're either talking past each other, or you're confusing cause with effect. "Backlash" was the cause; the F.I.R.E. economy is the effect.

+1 and raise, with a call to mr mesyn191

[touchring]

Re: China downgrades Britian! (F*cking YES!)

Yes, China is "special".

I especially found it entertaining how from Communist Central Planning economy they found it possible to cobble everything to work well with Capitalist countries. My friends never liked my jokes that we are doing business with a Communist country that used to be behind the Iron Wall and was our sworn enemy (I still think they are).

China is not special, they are just copying the Singapore model. An authoritarian government + population engineering + populist strategy (creating jobs) + capitalism.

This strategy only works when there are enough jobs, if you take out jobs, the people will go against the authoritarian government and the system falls apart. This is the weakest link.