French protest turn violent

[marvenger]

Re: French protest turn violent

The self interest arguments allow for more dynamism for sure but markets don't work in a perfect atomistic and competitive way that economists or shall I say milton friedmanites to try to be more specific say they do and they never will due to the efficiencies of some form of collectivism that is always present in society. THe problem is that powerful individuals or groups can co-opt these collective forces to the extent that the benefits are largely focused on them and its in the collectives self interest to push back. This is why strikes are so effective and why big business tries so hard to tell us its morally wrong. It's in big business' interest to tell the collective that all that is good in their life comes from their genius and business skills and to accept what they're given, while its in the collective's interest to tell big business 'well how about I stop working and you migh't recognise a little more how much you need me and give me my just reward'. Of course the strikes can go too far too but its best to recognise the reality of the tension and try come to an optimal balance than to give all the power to one side or the other. I think what so often tips the balance in business' favour is that individuals can concentrate such disproportionate gains on themselves that they are highly motivated to do so, this is the same reason that socialism failed. Markets may create more competition to reduce this threat but markets aren't perfect and this is why there needs to be a recognition in the collective psyche of their rights to push back. If markets aren't purely effecient then you are likely to have a build up of exploitaive pressures if there is nothing pushing back. As Stephen Hawking said if something is possible it will happen.

[sishya]

Re: French protest turn violent

Another revolutionary lost in the left/right struggle. The historical dichotomy between labor and capital is meaningless at the moment. The real issue is debt, finance, and monopoly power. The media's focus on labor struggles behooves monied interests. They don't want real capitalism either, only to be entrenched in their oligopoly.

Until the crowds figure that out, there will be no change. They are unwittingly doing the dirty work of their masters.

surely you are right. it is not the fight between labor and capital, but debt. US can be fully employed but if they are indebted too much(via housing, consumption), all their wealth goes to money lenders aka Bankers. As Symbols pointed, Applying Fractional Reserve lending in infinite times, all the net wealth of the nation goes mostly to Bankers. Just look around us and subtract our debts from our Assets, it will not be that big. Even if large, it can be diluted easily since it is credit digital money.

[Sharky]

Re: French protest turn violent

Roland: Violent conflicts at some high schools risk turning the opinion against the movement. Is it really necessary to get high school students involved?

Yes, everyone needs to get involved. And young people understand that old people working longer means fewer chances for them to find openings in the job market.

What he really means is that they need people to enter the job market at a younger age so they can be taxed to pay for the early retirement of others.

[oddlots]

Re: French protest turn violent

sound central banking? I dont think any austrain economist and other libertarian economist ever thought that possible. And I would like to see one that is for central banking. Central banking is as much a scam as what the banks have done, for some reason people fail to see that.

Well it's arguable whether "Austrian or other libertarian economists" matter. If you can point me in the direction of an existing nation with such a policy (i.e., not having a central bank) I'd be interested. If not, I wonder why you think that might be the case.

Central banking began in the late 1600s, far earlier than that "Creature from Jekyl Island." There's more to this than the Federal Reserve. The standard foundational work on Central Banking, which predates many of the developments that you decry - the social welfare state etc. - is Bagehot's Lombard Street. My takeaway from this is there is a core function to a central bank even in a relatively simple economy that allows private credit origination. It seems unlikely that this would lessen as the complexity increases.

As for France I stand by what I said, its funny that they(or at least the marxist in the interview) blame capitalism for their problems when their unsustainable labor deals have left them where they are off. I for one would hope they would actually go more and more to the left, it would be funny to see there continual decline...

France's economy has performed relatively well in the recession / depression or what have you (as has Canada, which has a much higher unionisation rate than the US.) Interestingly, like Germany, France's real estate market has been relatively moribund. Honestly I'd have more sympathy for your perspective as an Austrian-influenced thinker if you gave French unionists a pass as being relatively harmless and instead turned your guns on property speculation and its enablers in Spain, England, Ireland etc. Nothing could be more destructive and pernicious than this influence.

[don]

Re: French protest turn violent

3 takes on France

[oddlots]

Re: French protest turn violent

Not all of eastern europe is like that, maybe latvia and a few other countries corrupted by the west.

Price discovery markets have brought alot of people in countries such as poland and slovakia closer to western living standards. I would suggest you travel and explore eastern europe to learn more about what is really happening. If you were truly there and compared that lives of the actual working class/peasantry pre 1990 to those of now, there are massive changes in the quality of life. I am sure there are drawbacks but, on the whole it has been positive economically

Here is a book with some of the earlier western involvement

http://www.amazon.com/Collision-Coll...7657908&sr=8-2

Thanks. That book looks great. Will get to it.

I don't doubt that the situation has probably improved and it actually improved over the short period I was there. But I'd love to know how Hungary came to have their mortgage market dominated in foreign currency loans. That seems like unadulterated madness and could be catastrophic in a way that would undo a lot of the positive effects of more free markets.

[bagginz]

Re: French protest turn violent

Being born an Englishman it is of course my patriotic duty to have a go at the French at any and every available opportunity (e.g. dropping Agincourt into the conversation wherever possible).

However when it comes to political backbone, I have to take my hat off to the French populace.

They still have a keen sense of their own collective power and whenever they smell that they may be getting sold down the river (even if they cannot pinpoint or articulate exactly how) they take to the streets to remind TPTB that it may get dangerous for them if they push too far.

Of course they are going to trot out all the usual French socialist stereotypes to feed their USA audiences...they have to sell papers and get viewer eyeballs en masse, and in America that always means making everyone feel superior to whatever the French are doing.

Indeed.

Having lived in several European countries and travelled extensively in South America, Africa, Asia etc. and as a regular visitor to the USA my perspective is that most of the US population appears to live on the inside of a giant media created propaganda bubble.

No offence intended, especially to the erudite members of this board most of whom appear to have pierced the bubble from the inside - which is no mean feat given its all encompassing scope.

That war [ WW2] still carries significant influence over the politics, cultural attitudes and ecnomic policies in Western Europe to this day, and folks from the USA in particular, a country with no similar domestic experience in its history, might keep that in mind.

The closest the USA has experienced to an attack on one of its cities is a couple of towers knocked over in NY...and look at the level of paranoia in the national psyche that has led to.

Amen to both these points.

For my US brethren, contemplating the second point for long enough may begin to allow some insight into the post two world wars European mindset.

cheers,
bagginz