French protest turn violent

[GRG55]

Re: French protest turn violent

right, except it was an interview in a French newspaper and I was directly responding to tthat guy. I am sure the debate is more nuanced, but the french do seem to historically have a left that embraces marxist dictators so that is what I was refering to. This guy in particular is your cliche right out of college (I hope) communist. He is a joke.

wouldn't you agree the unsustainable labor deals and laws have caused the wide unemployment among the youth? I think france has the lowest retirement age in Europe, or the lowest along with italy and probably greece..

We are all a product of our experiences. Much of the "socialist" thinking in Europe is a product of the war in the middle of the last century. As terrible as the Great Depression may have been in the USA, there is no comparison with the mass devastation and millions upon millions that lost their lives as the cities of Europe were flattened. Much of the "collectivist" attitudes in Europe today, including the EU itself, and "risk-free" pensions and other government administered benefits, are shaped by that experience. The 1945 elections in the UK, where the people dumped war-time leader Winston Churchill, in favour of the Labour Party's Beveridge Report welfare state election platform is a good case study.

That war still carries significant influence over the politics, cultural attitudes and ecnomic policies in Western Europe to this day, and folks from the USA in particular, a country with no similar domestic experience in its history, might keep that in mind. The closest the USA has experienced to an attack on one of its cities is a couple of towers knocked over in NY...and look at the level of paranoia in the national psyche that has led to.

[don]

Re: French protest turn violent

the Keiser rant is brief, it's the guy that follows that's interesting.

[touchring]

Re: French protest turn violent

huh? no one is talking 70. The problem is the government is a reflection of the society. Everyone is trying to get as much out of the state coffers as possible. The same policies the " young left" left advocated for has left them with unemployment around 20-25%. The book the law comes into mind to take a look at french politics and how little it has changed mentality wise even though the book was written right after the 1849 revolution...

even 70 is too good here.

you should see what an asian leader is talking about.

http://news.xin.msn.com/en/singapore...mentid=4244505

There should be no retirement age: MM Lee

SINGAPORE: Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew has said that there should be no retirement age for workers.

[sishya]

Re: French protest turn violent

even 70 is too good here.

you should see what an asian leader is talking about.

http://news.xin.msn.com/en/singapore...mentid=4244505

I guess UK is already 68 and US is 65. So 70 is not far off . Also recently the Democrats and Republicans are in agreement to raise retirement age to scalp from the Middle Class.
All these social security tax is a indirect way of prevent dilution of dollar and hence savers and also a way to effect social change and make people into consumerists with a false promise of social safety net.

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

oh my what to say.



I don't doubt your sincerity on this but i really think it's unlikely that any nation with a currency in play is likely to give up the power implicit in having a central bank. Just won't happen for very practical, operational reasons if nothing else. It comes down to backstops in the end which also means political sovereignty: at what discount will you price your labour force.

Holy sh!t that scared even me: is it that simple?

The US had no central bank till 1913, ironically its longest and most painful economic decline came in large part thanks to the central bank. It seems we are heading in a similar direction.

I really don't understand how you can have so little and so much faith in government at the same time. Do you really believe a central bank:
Is necessary, beneficiary and not directed at promoting certain sectors in the economy? I do hope you are not that naive.

In fact I would even say most central banks around the world have caused much more harm than good.

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

We are all a product of our experiences. Much of the "socialist" thinking in Europe is a product of the war in the middle of the last century. As terrible as the Great Depression may have been in the USA, there is no comparison with the mass devastation and millions upon millions that lost their lives as the cities of Europe were flattened. Much of the "collectivist" attitudes in Europe today, including the EU itself, and "risk-free" pensions and other government administered benefits, are shaped by that experience. The 1945 elections in the UK, where the people dumped war-time leader Winston Churchill, in favour of the Labour Party's Beveridge Report welfare state election platform is a good case study.

That war still carries significant influence over the politics, cultural attitudes and ecnomic policies in Western Europe to this day, and folks from the USA in particular, a country with no similar domestic experience in its history, might keep that in mind. The closest the USA has experienced to an attack on one of its cities is a couple of towers knocked over in NY...and look at the level of paranoia in the national psyche that has led to.

Agree with you there. But that is even more puzzling that they would have such high regard toward collectivist policies, considering WWII was ignited by a pure collectivist government and the 50 years that followed another form of collectivism imprisoned half of Europe...

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

I guess UK is already 68 and US is 65. So 70 is not far off . Also recently the Democrats and Republicans are in agreement to raise retirement age to scalp from the Middle Class.
All these social security tax is a indirect way of prevent dilution of dollar and hence savers and also a way to effect social change and make people into consumerists with a false promise of social safety net.

On your last point. How more is not made about the moribund rate of return of SS(if you live long enough to collect it and assuming government inflation numbers are correct, if not its even lower!) I do not understand. How is it that an option for a private SS plan is not considered is beyond me. You think the media might want to look into what americans really get back from what they put into SS....

[flintlock]

Re: French protest turn violent

We are all a product of our experiences. Much of the "socialist" thinking in Europe is a product of the war in the middle of the last century. As terrible as the Great Depression may have been in the USA, there is no comparison with the mass devastation and millions upon millions that lost their lives as the cities of Europe were flattened. Much of the "collectivist" attitudes in Europe today, including the EU itself, and "risk-free" pensions and other government administered benefits, are shaped by that experience. The 1945 elections in the UK, where the people dumped war-time leader Winston Churchill, in favour of the Labour Party's Beveridge Report welfare state election platform is a good case study.

That war still carries significant influence over the politics, cultural attitudes and ecnomic policies in Western Europe to this day, and folks from the USA in particular, a country with no similar domestic experience in its history, might keep that in mind. The closest the USA has experienced to an attack on one of its cities is a couple of towers knocked over in NY...and look at the level of paranoia in the national psyche that has led to.

Well said. That is an excellent example of why Europe tends to lean towards socialism. Only I'll add that the current crop of "collectivists" in Europe probably continue their ways more out of a sense of entitlement than any attempt at avoiding WWIII. What people expect from Socialism has a tendency to ratchet up if not held in check. Perhaps they are getting a bit greedy?

[marvenger]

Re: French protest turn violent

The constant collectivist/individualist arguments become pretty meaningless. I never did high school debating but that's how it seems to me. Why does everyone think you have pick a side and run with it? Both of these elements exist in our lives, that's reality, the difficult part is in deciding the balance. It just seems everyone finds their high school debate so much easier.

[GRG55]

Re: French protest turn violent

The constant collectivist/individualist arguments become pretty meaningless. I never did high school debating but that's how it seems to me. Why does everyone think you have pick a side and run with it? Both of these elements exist in our lives, that's reality, the difficult part is in deciding the balance. It just seems everyone finds their high school debate so much easier.

Absolutely agree. It's a matter of degree, and like many things in life these things tend to oscillate back and forth with time, circumstances and changing public sentiment. What our historical experience tends to do is contribute to setting the "mid-point" around which the oscillations occur, and perhaps the maximum amplitude of those oscillations also [debatable]. And that doesn't tend to move very much or very easily in any society, unless its subjected to severe trauma/crisis.

Europe's oscillates around a point that is somewhat to the "left" of the USA, in part because of the reasons I described.

[chr5648]

Re: French protest turn violent

I dunno fly but you might want to check in on Eastern Europe. In broad stokes they implemented the neo-liberal program and ended up loaned up several generations deep and, in several countries, in foreign currencies no less. All to serve western banking interests. Were you protesting this outrage against the logic of free markets as espoused by classical economists or the fathers of sound central banking?

I was there in 89-90 and I had arguments with leftists about what the future would bring. I'm embarrased to say I was all about about creating a free "civil society" and had nothing useful to say about negotiating finance, micro or macro. I'm depressed to say that they were more right than I. I don't remember anyone mentioning the "banker's ramp" but that pretty much sums it up.

Anyway, Eastern Europe should really be the west's (and capitalism's) shame. What's that line from Animal House: "You fucked up. You trusted us."

So what were you saying about France?

Not all of eastern europe is like that, maybe latvia and a few other countries corrupted by the west.

Price discovery markets have brought alot of people in countries such as poland and slovakia closer to western living standards. I would suggest you travel and explore eastern europe to learn more about what is really happening. If you were truly there and compared that lives of the actual working class/peasantry pre 1990 to those of now, there are massive changes in the quality of life. I am sure there are drawbacks but, on the whole it has been positive economically

Here is a book with some of the earlier western involvement

http://www.amazon.com/Collision-Coll...7657908&sr=8-2

[chr5648]

Re: French protest turn violent

If i am not mistaken, earlier in the week it started to rain lightly and the stereotypically weak french protesters packed it up and went home. All sarkozy needs is a little rain dance and his problems may be solved.






I am surprised that no one mentions the cultural changes that have occurred in france, especially in regards to their importation of 'minorities' such as africans and arabs, they are essentially bringing in people who have lower education levels, on the french equivalent of welfare, and don't seem to be integrating into french society very well. The french also have a low birth rate so they are unable to replace themselves. How will the workers be able to retire at 60 when there won't be a competent, educated, assimilated work force to support that pension and social services system?

IMO these french workers are delusional. France, england, and europe will be quite entertaining to watch in the years to come.

[Jay]

Re: French protest turn violent

Another revolutionary lost in the left/right struggle. The historical dichotomy between labor and capital is meaningless at the moment. The real issue is debt, finance, and monopoly power. The media's focus on labor struggles behooves monied interests. They don't want real capitalism either, only to be entrenched in their oligopoly.

Until the crowds figure that out, there will be no change. They are unwittingly doing the dirty work of their masters.

[DToM67]

Re: French protest turn violent

I guess UK is already 68 and US is 65. So 70 is not far off . Also recently the Democrats and Republicans are in agreement to raise retirement age to scalp from the Middle Class.
All these social security tax is a indirect way of prevent dilution of dollar and hence savers and also a way to effect social change and make people into consumerists with a false promise of social safety net.

Not to forget that when SS was implemented (1935) the US life expectancy was 65 or less. So, you retired @ 65 in order to die.

So, the French don't want to go from 60 to 62. I'm sympathetic. Its a slippery slope - once 62 is the new standard, its precedent. What's next... Lee Quan Yew?

Its all a sham. False right/left BS... Feudal societies require vassals to serve the lords. The vassals just need to work harder now, because the lords lost at poker.

[jiimbergin]

Re: French protest turn violent

Not to forget that when SS was implemented (1935) the US life expectancy was 65 or less. So, you retired @ 65 in order to die.

So, the French don't want to go from 60 to 62. I'm sympathetic. Its a slippery slope - once 62 is the new standard, its precedent. What's next... Lee Quan Yew?

Its all a sham. False right/left BS... Feudal societies require vassals to serve the lords. The vassals just need to work harder now, because the lords lost at poker.

The life expectancy you site is at birth, not when you quality for Social Security. Actually if you lived to reach 65, you still had a relatively long life expectancy (11 or 12 years) in 1935. Today that is about 15 or 16. The real problem is that we, the voters, allowed the politicians to spend all the money and give us IOUs. The system has never been actuarially sound.