French protest turn violent

[tsetsefly]

So the french cant stand the fact they might have to work 2 more years to 62. That couple with the already bad policies that cause widespread unemployment among young people and it was destined to turn violent.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Vio...495/story.html

[sishya]

Re: French protest turn violent

I don't think the issue is working 2 more years. But fairness. What happens Govt continues looting Pension finds and then raise it to 70. Poeple have to work till that age and
Govt gets to payout less. This is a legitimate fight.

[don]

Re: French protest turn violent

from Le Monde....

"Blocking the Economy to Block the Reform"

Chat with Olivier Besancenot, Moderated by Caroline Monnot

Esteban: Hello, this Tuesday's action is a symbolic last-ditch stand, isn't it?

Olivier Besancenot: No! It's another stage toward the general strike which is beginning to happen. On Tuesday night, strikes will be renewed, and there will be new demonstrations, as well as numerous blockades. The question posed now is about blocking the economy to block the reform.


Zbeul: In your opinion, is this strike a political strike expressing general discontent or a social strike focused only on retirement?

The discontent goes beyond the retirement issue, but, at the same time, it is crystallizing through it. Many workers and many young people are truly fed up with the government's double standards and are indeed seeking, through this strike about retirement, to settle accounts with the Sarkozy government from which they have suffered for too long.


Abdelmallik: What do you think will happen after the trade union action if the law gets passed?

The law isn't a law in effect until it appears in the Official Gazette. And even if it gets into the Official Gazette, the social history of our country reminds us that what the Parliament -- the Assembly and the Senate -- decides can be defeated by the street.


Fred: Even with 3 million demonstrators, does the street have the same legitimacy as an elected parliament?

Today, it's the street that has legitimacy, and the street can be more powerful than a government. That was so in 1995 at the time of the Juppé plan, and equally so in 2006 at the time of the First Employment Contract.
Moreover, our main social gains, from the beginning, were extracted by the struggles and mobilizations of our forebears. If our grandparents hadn't struck in 1936, today we wouldn't be the beneficiaries of paid annual leaves.
Odp: Do you then think that the vote of a national assembly matters less than social movements?

When did a majority of citizens vote for retirement at 67? On YouTube, you can see Nicolas Sarkozy explaining why he wouldn't touch the retirement age of 60.


Léon: Is the New Anti-Capitalist Party [NPA] pushing high school students to take to the streets?

High school students are pushing themselves to do so all on their own, and they don't need anyone else to do it for them. High school student activists can join the NPA.


Furthermore, adults, workers, parents of students are often there at high schools, demanding that security forces leave the premises and stop their provocations. And that's a good thing.


Roland: Violent conflicts at some high schools risk turning the opinion against the movement. Is it really necessary to get high school students involved?

Yes, everyone needs to get involved. And young people understand that old people working longer means fewer chances for them to find openings in the job market.



The government, by its repeated police provocations, is looking to cause escalations, thinking that it can calm down the protest by causing fear.


Emilien22: What factors lead you to compare the demonstrations over the last several days to May 68? Is such a movement possible or even desirable for France?

There is no model that can be exported from its time and place. Each struggle is unique and finds its own dynamic. But I think that a new May 68 in a 21st-century style wouldn't hurt anyone, except the capitalists and the government. But that isn't bad. . . .


May 68, beyond the barricades, was a general strike in which millions erupted onto the social and political stage. It's that eruption that we need today.


Thibaud: Strikers are blockading refineries and transport arteries. Is the strike again actively preventing others from working? Isn't that closer to your idea of "revolutionary activism"?

We are not going through a revolution (yet!). We are in a process of spreading strikes, where radicalization and expansion go hand in hand. The movement is gradually getting larger with each day of action, and, at the same time, it is getting radicalized since the government is forcing the struggle to get radical.


Marc: Does the NPA have a concrete counter-project of reform on the issue of retirement? If yes, what is it?

The NPA says no to rewriting the government's project, demanding its abandonment pure and simple. We propose retirement at 60 with full benefits and the return to the contribution length of 37.5 years, for all. To finance this project, we propose to increase the share of employers' contributions to Social Security.


3% of the GDP from now to 2050 will be necessary to finance the retirement system, according to the Pensions Advisory Council. On the other hand, every year, 17% of the wealth created in the year gets siphoned off in the form of profits, which are monopolized by the privileged few.


It is therefore necessary to share the wealth and to share the work time equally, the currently employed working less, so that everyone who is unemployed can get a job.


Victor: Which sectors do you think should be taxed more first of all, if we want to find the necessary funds to finance retirement?

Capital's revenues. What's more, every year, 23 billion euros gets lost in the form of Social Security contributions forgiven to "create jobs" (you can see how successful it has been!). Those forgiven Social Security contributions create deficits.


Georges P.: How is it that you don't seem to fear the economic consequences (for employment, growth, etc.) of the movements you are organizing or stirring up?

The current economic troubles are not the result of the general strike but the result of a system called capitalism, whose crisis, triggered two years ago by the subprime mortgage affair, has fucked up the whole machinery of economy.


What we have is a crisis of overproduction in the Marxist sense of the term throughout the major capitalist economies. We'll have to invent a new mode of production and consumption that can meet the needs of humanity.


Etudiant Tokyo: Do you think a referendum would be a good solution to finally review the whole thing?

At this precise moment of the conflict, no. That would be a distraction from, and an institutional substitute for, social mobilizations. If there's a more effective method than an indefinite general strike, you have to tell us, but I don't see any. The vote of citizens, at the time when the Postal Service was threatened to be privatized, worked as a support mechanism for the struggle. But in any case there's no substitute for struggles.


Serena: University students are rather weakly mobilized for the moment. Could they play a decisive role?

Don't panic, Serena, that's coming! A dozen of universities are already mobilized, and indeed, university students' protest can be a decisive element in the expansion of the movement.


MatthieuRecu: So, it's normal to blockade campuses and to prevent those who want to study from doing so?

So, it's normal for me to support the blockades, too.


Zbeul: Can Black Bloc actions be the solution rather than traditional "spiced-up (merguez) CGT demos"?

I'd rather be on the side of the Red Bloc. Besides, I very much love merguez, and I favor indefinite general strikes.


GG: Any chance of a true alliance of the Left between the NPA and the Left Front putting pressure on the Socialist Party [PS] in the coming years?

We propose to gather together all the anti-capitalist forces on the common radical principles, in total independence from the PS. The goal, for me, is not to shift the PS policy or to convert it to anti-capitalism (good luck!), but rather to challenge the PS's hegemony on the rest of the Left.


There are two major political orientations on the Left: one that is stuck in the framework of market economy, and the other that wants to leave it behind. These two orientations are not compatible in a same government, but our forces can join together to resist the Right, as is the case with the retirement issue.


Laurent F.: Mr. Besancenot, when do you plan on retiring?

At 60 with full benefits! But, Laurent, you had better believe that I'll continue to be a militant all the same.


Maroux: And how far will this escalation go?

All the way to victory. Things are coming together for the victory of the movement on the retirement issue. It's not a foregone conclusion, and there are still numerous obstacles before us. But, objectively, our camp, the protest camp, is continuing to expand while the opposite camp is becoming isolated and weaker.


The cabinet reshuffle will result in disarray. And, given the ministers already packing up their belongings, ready to leave, the street can win a decisive victory in this class struggle. As Che said, hasta la victoria siempre!

http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/chat...26_823448.html

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

I don't think the issue is working 2 more years. But fairness. What happens Govt continues looting Pension finds and then raise it to 70. Poeple have to work till that age and
Govt gets to payout less. This is a legitimate fight.

huh? no one is talking 70. The problem is the government is a reflection of the society. Everyone is trying to get as much out of the state coffers as possible. The same policies the " young left" left advocated for has left them with unemployment around 20-25%. The book the law comes into mind to take a look at french politics and how little it has changed mentality wise even though the book was written right after the 1849 revolution...

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

from Le Monde....

"Blocking the Economy to Block the Reform"

Chat with Olivier Besancenot, Moderated by Caroline Monnot

Esteban: Hello, this Tuesday's action is a symbolic last-ditch stand, isn't it?

Olivier Besancenot: No! It's another stage toward the general strike which is beginning to happen. On Tuesday night, strikes will be renewed, and there will be new demonstrations, as well as numerous blockades. The question posed now is about blocking the economy to block the reform.


Zbeul: In your opinion, is this strike a political strike expressing general discontent or a social strike focused only on retirement?

The discontent goes beyond the retirement issue, but, at the same time, it is crystallizing through it. Many workers and many young people are truly fed up with the government's double standards and are indeed seeking, through this strike about retirement, to settle accounts with the Sarkozy government from which they have suffered for too long.


Abdelmallik: What do you think will happen after the trade union action if the law gets passed?

The law isn't a law in effect until it appears in the Official Gazette. And even if it gets into the Official Gazette, the social history of our country reminds us that what the Parliament -- the Assembly and the Senate -- decides can be defeated by the street.


Fred: Even with 3 million demonstrators, does the street have the same legitimacy as an elected parliament?

Today, it's the street that has legitimacy, and the street can be more powerful than a government. That was so in 1995 at the time of the Juppé plan, and equally so in 2006 at the time of the First Employment Contract.
Moreover, our main social gains, from the beginning, were extracted by the struggles and mobilizations of our forebears. If our grandparents hadn't struck in 1936, today we wouldn't be the beneficiaries of paid annual leaves.
Odp: Do you then think that the vote of a national assembly matters less than social movements?

When did a majority of citizens vote for retirement at 67? On YouTube, you can see Nicolas Sarkozy explaining why he wouldn't touch the retirement age of 60.


Léon: Is the New Anti-Capitalist Party [NPA] pushing high school students to take to the streets?

High school students are pushing themselves to do so all on their own, and they don't need anyone else to do it for them. High school student activists can join the NPA.


Furthermore, adults, workers, parents of students are often there at high schools, demanding that security forces leave the premises and stop their provocations. And that's a good thing.


Roland: Violent conflicts at some high schools risk turning the opinion against the movement. Is it really necessary to get high school students involved?

Yes, everyone needs to get involved. And young people understand that old people working longer means fewer chances for them to find openings in the job market.



The government, by its repeated police provocations, is looking to cause escalations, thinking that it can calm down the protest by causing fear.


Emilien22: What factors lead you to compare the demonstrations over the last several days to May 68? Is such a movement possible or even desirable for France?

There is no model that can be exported from its time and place. Each struggle is unique and finds its own dynamic. But I think that a new May 68 in a 21st-century style wouldn't hurt anyone, except the capitalists and the government. But that isn't bad. . . .


May 68, beyond the barricades, was a general strike in which millions erupted onto the social and political stage. It's that eruption that we need today.


Thibaud: Strikers are blockading refineries and transport arteries. Is the strike again actively preventing others from working? Isn't that closer to your idea of "revolutionary activism"?

We are not going through a revolution (yet!). We are in a process of spreading strikes, where radicalization and expansion go hand in hand. The movement is gradually getting larger with each day of action, and, at the same time, it is getting radicalized since the government is forcing the struggle to get radical.


Marc: Does the NPA have a concrete counter-project of reform on the issue of retirement? If yes, what is it?

The NPA says no to rewriting the government's project, demanding its abandonment pure and simple. We propose retirement at 60 with full benefits and the return to the contribution length of 37.5 years, for all. To finance this project, we propose to increase the share of employers' contributions to Social Security.


3% of the GDP from now to 2050 will be necessary to finance the retirement system, according to the Pensions Advisory Council. On the other hand, every year, 17% of the wealth created in the year gets siphoned off in the form of profits, which are monopolized by the privileged few.


It is therefore necessary to share the wealth and to share the work time equally, the currently employed working less, so that everyone who is unemployed can get a job.


Victor: Which sectors do you think should be taxed more first of all, if we want to find the necessary funds to finance retirement?

Capital's revenues. What's more, every year, 23 billion euros gets lost in the form of Social Security contributions forgiven to "create jobs" (you can see how successful it has been!). Those forgiven Social Security contributions create deficits.


Georges P.: How is it that you don't seem to fear the economic consequences (for employment, growth, etc.) of the movements you are organizing or stirring up?

The current economic troubles are not the result of the general strike but the result of a system called capitalism, whose crisis, triggered two years ago by the subprime mortgage affair, has fucked up the whole machinery of economy.


What we have is a crisis of overproduction in the Marxist sense of the term throughout the major capitalist economies. We'll have to invent a new mode of production and consumption that can meet the needs of humanity.


Etudiant Tokyo: Do you think a referendum would be a good solution to finally review the whole thing?

At this precise moment of the conflict, no. That would be a distraction from, and an institutional substitute for, social mobilizations. If there's a more effective method than an indefinite general strike, you have to tell us, but I don't see any. The vote of citizens, at the time when the Postal Service was threatened to be privatized, worked as a support mechanism for the struggle. But in any case there's no substitute for struggles.


Serena: University students are rather weakly mobilized for the moment. Could they play a decisive role?

Don't panic, Serena, that's coming! A dozen of universities are already mobilized, and indeed, university students' protest can be a decisive element in the expansion of the movement.


MatthieuRecu: So, it's normal to blockade campuses and to prevent those who want to study from doing so?

So, it's normal for me to support the blockades, too.


Zbeul: Can Black Bloc actions be the solution rather than traditional "spiced-up (merguez) CGT demos"?

I'd rather be on the side of the Red Bloc. Besides, I very much love merguez, and I favor indefinite general strikes.


GG: Any chance of a true alliance of the Left between the NPA and the Left Front putting pressure on the Socialist Party [PS] in the coming years?

We propose to gather together all the anti-capitalist forces on the common radical principles, in total independence from the PS. The goal, for me, is not to shift the PS policy or to convert it to anti-capitalism (good luck!), but rather to challenge the PS's hegemony on the rest of the Left.


There are two major political orientations on the Left: one that is stuck in the framework of market economy, and the other that wants to leave it behind. These two orientations are not compatible in a same government, but our forces can join together to resist the Right, as is the case with the retirement issue.


Laurent F.: Mr. Besancenot, when do you plan on retiring?

At 60 with full benefits! But, Laurent, you had better believe that I'll continue to be a militant all the same.


Maroux: And how far will this escalation go?

All the way to victory. Things are coming together for the victory of the movement on the retirement issue. It's not a foregone conclusion, and there are still numerous obstacles before us. But, objectively, our camp, the protest camp, is continuing to expand while the opposite camp is becoming isolated and weaker.


The cabinet reshuffle will result in disarray. And, given the ministers already packing up their belongings, ready to leave, the street can win a decisive victory in this class struggle. As Che said, hasta la victoria siempre!

http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/chat...26_823448.html

This chat sums up how immature and stuck in the 1960's the left in france is.... references of marxism, capitalism (who new france was at the forefront of capitalist nations!) and even included a che reference at the end ;)... Not a coincidence they have resorted to violence...

[oddlots]

Re: French protest turn violent

I dunno fly but you might want to check in on Eastern Europe. In broad stokes they implemented the neo-liberal program and ended up loaned up several generations deep and, in several countries, in foreign currencies no less. All to serve western banking interests. Were you protesting this outrage against the logic of free markets as espoused by classical economists or the fathers of sound central banking?

I was there in 89-90 and I had arguments with leftists about what the future would bring. I'm embarrased to say I was all about about creating a free "civil society" and had nothing useful to say about negotiating finance, micro or macro. I'm depressed to say that they were more right than I. I don't remember anyone mentioning the "banker's ramp" but that pretty much sums it up.

Anyway, Eastern Europe should really be the west's (and capitalism's) shame. What's that line from Animal House: "You fucked up. You trusted us."

So what were you saying about France?

[GRG55]

Re: French protest turn violent

This chat sums up how immature and stuck in the 1960's the left in france is.... references of marxism, capitalism (who new france was at the forefront of capitalist nations!) and even included a che reference at the end ;)... Not a coincidence they have resorted to violence...

I have a different take on it...not immature at all. I do not support the violence of course, but at least the French are out participating in their democracy. In the USA all we see is voter turnout steadily declining and nothing more than rising cynicism towards the political process. The level of public debate, informed or otherwise, about any of the issues is pretty near zilch [with the exception of perhaps Glenn Beck?]. What would you prefer the French do? Display more apathy?

btw; I am watching what's going on from a vantage point across the Atlantic, and well away from the USA & Canada. You should be aware that the debate in France is much more nuanced than the usual "socialist left bad - capitalist right good" bullshzt that the USA media always apply in their coverage of this sort of thing. Of course they are going to trot out all the usual French socialist stereotypes to feed their USA audiences...they have to sell papers and get viewer eyeballs en masse, and in America that always means making everyone feel superior to whatever the French are doing.

I dunno fly but you might want to check in on Eastern Europe. In broad stokes they implemented the neo-liberal program and ended up loaned up several generations deep and, in several countries, in foreign currencies no less. All to serve western banking interests. Were you protesting this outrage against the logic of free markets as espoused by classical economists or the fathers of sound central banking?

I was there in 89-90 and I had arguments with leftists about what the future would bring. I'm embarrased to say I was all about about creating a free "civil society" and had nothing useful to say about negotiating finance, micro or macro. I'm depressed to say that they were more right than I. I don't remember anyone mentioning the "banker's ramp" but that pretty much sums it up.

Anyway, Eastern Europe should really be the west's (and capitalism's) shame. What's that line from Animal House: "You fucked up. You trusted us."

So what were you saying about France?

+1

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

I dunno fly but you might want to check in on Eastern Europe. In broad stokes they implemented the neo-liberal program and ended up loaned up several generations deep and, in several countries, in foreign currencies no less. All to serve western banking interests. Were you protesting this outrage against the logic of free markets as espoused by classical economists or the fathers of sound central banking?

I was there in 89-90 and I had arguments with leftists about what the future would bring. I'm embarrased to say I was all about about creating a free "civil society" and had nothing useful to say about negotiating finance, micro or macro. I'm depressed to say that they were more right than I. I don't remember anyone mentioning the "banker's ramp" but that pretty much sums it up.

Anyway, Eastern Europe should really be the west's (and capitalism's) shame. What's that line from Animal House: "You fucked up. You trusted us."

So what were you saying about France?

sound central banking? I dont think any austrain economist and other libertarian economist ever thought that possible. And I would like to see one that is for central banking. Central banking is as much a scam as what the banks have done, for some reason people fail to see that.

Eastern Europe went from 0 to 100, were estimates on how fast and long the growth would be were completely off. But having said that they are certainly better off than they where before and some continue to go strong (estonia being one of them).

As for France I stand by what I said, its funny that they(or at least the marxist in the interview) blame capitalism for their problems when their unsustainable labor deals have left them where they are off. I for one would hope they would actually go more and more to the left, it would be funny to see there continual decline...

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

I have a different take on it...not immature at all. I do not support the violence of course, but at least the French are out participating in their democracy. In the USA all we see is voter turnout steadily declining and nothing more than rising cynicism towards the political process. The level of public debate, informed or otherwise, about any of the issues is pretty near zilch [with the exception of perhaps Glenn Beck?]. What would you prefer the French do? Display more apathy?

btw; I am watching what's going on from a vantage point across the Atlantic, and well away from the USA & Canada. You should be aware that the debate in France is much more nuanced than the usual "socialist left bad - capitalist right good" bullshzt that the USA media always apply in their coverage of this sort of thing. Of course they are going to trot out all the usual French socialist stereotypes to feed their USA audiences...they have to sell papers and get viewer eyeballs en masse, and in America that always means making everyone feel superior to whatever the French are doing.

right, except it was an interview in a French newspaper and I was directly responding to tthat guy. I am sure the debate is more nuanced, but the french do seem to historically have a left that embraces marxist dictators so that is what I was refering to. This guy in particular is your cliche right out of college (I hope) communist. He is a joke.

wouldn't you agree the unsustainable labor deals and laws have caused the wide unemployment among the youth? I think france has the lowest retirement age in Europe, or the lowest along with italy and probably greece..

[GRG55]

Re: French protest turn violent

...i for one would hope they would actually go more and more to the left, it would be funny to see there continual decline...

...of course they are going to trot out all the usual french socialist stereotypes to feed their usa audiences...they have to sell papers and get viewer eyeballs en masse, and in america that always means making everyone feel superior to whatever the french are doing.

lol.

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

lol.

right, except I am not America, so there sort of goes your theory. I would say if any nation feels superior to other ones it's the french... From my experience Americans don't even think about France(or any other countries for that matter) and I would say most of them would have a hard time placing it on a map...

[GRG55]

Re: French protest turn violent

right, except I am not America, so there sort of goes your theory. I would say if any nation feels superior to other ones it's the french... From my experience Americans don't even think about France(or any other countries for that matter) and I would say most of them would have a hard time placing it on a map...

Well I won't deny there's something to what you say about the French superiority complex...which might be why the Americans and the French seem to have so much more fun poking at each other than most other bi-national combinations. My favourite story about France comes from a friend of mine, the son of a US career diplomat, who spent a couple of years in France as a teenager when his parents were posted there.

After their return to D.C., at a party hosted by his parents, someone asked his mother about her impressions of France. She replied "Ah, the French. They have the best wines, fabulous food, a glorious history, wonderful landscapes, the language of love...and they don't deserve any of it."

[tsetsefly]

Re: French protest turn violent

Well I won't deny there's something to what you say about the French superiority complex...which might be why the Americans and the French seem to have so much more fun poking at each other than most other bi-national combinations. My favourite story about France comes from a friend of mine, the son of a US career diplomat, who spent a couple of years in France as a teenager when his parents were posted there.

After their return to D.C., at a party hosted by his parents, someone asked his mother about her impressions of France. She replied "Ah, the French. They have the best wines, fabulous food, a glorious history, wonderful landscapes, the language of love...and they don't deserve any of it."

haha... Ive visited france only a couple of times and not enough to make any serious opinion on their society. In fact i enjoyed most of my time there. But my response to liking their decline (half hearted really, the truth is I woudln't care either way) was more a response to the interview where he probably could only dream off cuba like policies for his nation. If they gave it a try for some years im sure they would regret it...

[oddlots]

Re: French protest turn violent

oh my what to say.

sound central banking? I dont think any austrain economist and other libertarian economist ever thought that possible. And I would like to see one that is for central banking. Central banking is as much a scam as what the banks have done, for some reason people fail to see that.

I don't doubt your sincerity on this but i really think it's unlikely that any nation with a currency in play is likely to give up the power implicit in having a central bank. Just won't happen for very practical, operational reasons if nothing else. It comes down to backstops in the end which also means political sovereignty: at what discount will you price your labour force.

Holy sh!t that scared even me: is it that simple?

[gnk]

Re: French protest turn violent

I think france has the lowest retirement age in Europe, or the lowest along with italy and probably greece..

I think there's a distinction that needs to be made here when comparing the US with Europe regarding retirement age.

In Europe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there is only one type of Pension/Retirement benefit. I know in Greece, it depends on your career and time worked. So the eligible age and payout amount varies.

But keep in mind, in the US we have Social Security, as well as any private or public pension one may be eligible for. And these are dependent on time worked as well. I know the private pension system is in decline - for example GM's employee program. But the Government local, state and Federal, however unsustainable, is alive and well. I know of former police officers that started working in their early twenties and retired in their 40s or early 50s! And then, when they are 65 (or 62) they are eligible for Social Security.

So many in the US retire well before their European counterparts, and to boot, are eligible for a SECOND retirement benefit - Social Security.

Now what were we saying about those "European leftists?"