“One in 31 Adults”

[Rajiv]

“One in 31 Adults”

“One in 31 Adults”

are under the control of the correctional system (prison, parole, probation) according to a March 2009 Pew Center Report of the same title. 1 in every one hundred adults are imprisoned in jail, state prisons, or federal facilities. 25 years ago those under the control of the correctional system was one in 77 adults. The population under correctional control is ~ 7.3 million (2007).

What does a growing prison and correctional population cost for taxpayers? To support the growing state prison population, costs range from ~$13,000 in Louisiana to ~$45,000 in Rhode Island annually (2005). The average is ~$23,000 annually, “US Imprisons 1 in every 100 Adults” NYT. The cost of imprisonment compares nicely to a state or private college education (another story). As a whole the US imprisons a higher percentage of its population than any other nation in the world from which the cost burden of housing prisoners has become an issue for states with a decreasing/stagnant economy and decreasing tax revenues. Paradoxically while costing more, jails and prisons for many communities are a stable and growing business employing people, services, and a fast growing part of the rural economies.

Incarceration Nation as one part of, Schmidt, Warner, and Gupta’s “The High Budgetary Cost of Incarceration” (Real-World Economics Review, Issue no. 53) suggest much of the increased numbers of those under control of the correctional system result from harsher sentencing guidelines which in turn also have a lesser impact on crime. The mandated guidelines (drugs, three strikes, recidivism issues, etc.) result in higher imprisonment rates and consequently long sentences, higher costs to house prisoners as more prisoners are kept interned for longer periods, and have a diminished impact on crime.

By historical standards the rate of imprisonment in the US is 350+ percent of what it was in 1980. Globally, the US is 3 times higher than the nest in line for imprisonment, seven times higher than the median rate for an OCED country, and seventeen times higher than Iceland which has the lowest rate of incarceration. And yet, the increases in imprisonment can not be explained with certainty by increases in crime. While crime did increase from 1990 to 1992, there was a fall off of crime in later years. In 1992, violent crime peaked at 44% higher than its 1980 level and property crime at 7% above its 1980 level. During the same time period, incarceration grew to 150% of its 1980 level. After 1992, crime decreased to a level close to its 1980 level.
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[chr5648]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Another loaded forum post and article title. It is irrelevant what the ratio of adults in jail is besides making for a judgemental thread title. The real question is are these people deserving of being in jail? Did they commit crimes against the law? (regardless of whether the law is right on a subjective measure) and was the process fair? should be the real questions.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Another loaded forum post and article title. It is irrelevant what the ratio of adults in jail is besides making for a judgemental thread title. The real question is are these people deserving of being in jail? Did they commit crimes against the law? (regardless of whether the law is right on a subjective measure) and was the process fair? should be the real questions.

A big double "amen" to that.

[Chomsky]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Another loaded forum post and article title. It is irrelevant what the ratio of adults in jail is besides making for a judgemental thread title. The real question is are these people deserving of being in jail? Did they commit crimes against the law? (regardless of whether the law is right on a subjective measure) and was the process fair? should be the real questions.

Disagree. A society cannot possibly be fair, a priori, if it incarcerates its citizens at such a rate.

[Ghent12]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

A society cannot possibly be fair, a priori, if it incarcerates its citizens at such a rate.

I am not so sure about that as a matter of principle. However, I also disagree with what chr5648 said. I don't remember the exact statistic, but far too many are caught up in the prison-industrial complex for non-crimes such as drug possession or gun law infractions or given permanent "sex offender" status for 'crimes' like public urination at 3 AM on the Interstate as to make the system a complete farce and ineffective on its face.

[oddlots]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Another loaded forum post and article title. It is irrelevant what the ratio of adults in jail is besides making for a judgemental thread title. The real question is are these people deserving of being in jail? Did they commit crimes against the law? (regardless of whether the law is right on a subjective measure) and was the process fair? should be the real questions.

C'mon. If you limit your point of view to the "crime" committed without any reference to economic trends and how sentencing guidelines have developed - think "three strikes" - you are squinting through a chink in the wall.

Incarceration is big business - "only if privatised" (sound of angel's harps). Do you really think this isn't a factor? When Goldman Sachs cites government relations as a core business line what more do you need to know? How fast do you think the revolving door has been turning between senior management at public correctional institutions and private sector prison companies over the last decade?

Well what could go wrong, right? The best case is that private enterprise is much more "efficient" at supplying the "services." Just like in US healthcare where 17% goes to administratiion (read redundancy, marketing, executive bonuses....) versus I think around 5% in Germany or France.

Why oh why do Americans cling to these albatroses? If you think government sucks, fix it. But don't tell me that there's some essential difference between running a private health consortium and say, managing the south of France's health care system. Both are managerial posts with budgets and goals etc. For god's sake, if you were running Enron's power generation business you'd be more out of touch with reality than any bureaucrat out there. She persevered in trying to actually produce a business while the only thing head office cared about was fudging the accounting to help goose the share price.

The thing that puzzles me is the cognitive distortion. If we like efficiency, increased productivity and so wealth you'd think we'd be ecumenical about how these are achieved and curious about different models or systems that seem to produce such outcomes... unless you are a certain kind of Anglo-saxon die hard in which case the recent abject-failure of a certain ""markets"-uber-alles-and-pass-the-stock-options" seems to be an invitation to redouble the efforts in a kind of Pol Pot pursuit of purity.

That's unfair to your original post, but honestly the whole point of the thread is to zoom out and take the long view. Do you really think that "justice" has somehow experienced a resurgence as evidenced by incarceration rates? Is there not a more obvious motivation for this?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

I also disagree with what chr5648 said

I don't see your post disagreeing with chr5648. He said the lockup rate is OK if they deserved it and received the benefit of proper legal proceedings. You said many of them didn't deserve it.

I'll agree with you that many didn't deserve it. Sometimes when you break the law, you did wrong. Sometimes, the law has run amuck.

[oddlots]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

As an afterthought here's an interview with a crime reporter turned television producer - David Simon, creator of The Wire - taking about the reality on the ground in Baltimore:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04172009/watch.html

He's very straight forward about the reality: America, obviously, has no need for these people anymore and the only thing left is for the politicians to monetise the only remaining "unit of account" (i.e., delivered votes) in order to subsidize managing them.

I just cannot believe that America cannot do better than that.

[mliu_01]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

The jail are for suckers. The real criminals never goes to jail. They run it.

[chr5648]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Disagree. A society cannot possibly be fair, a priori, if it incarcerates its citizens at such a rate.

What is a correct rate? Please educate me.

[chr5648]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

C'mon. If you limit your point of view to the "crime" committed without any reference to economic trends and how sentencing guidelines have developed - think "three strikes" - you are squinting through a chink in the wall.

Incarceration is big business - "only if privatised" (sound of angel's harps). Do you really think this isn't a factor? When Goldman Sachs cites government relations as a core business line what more do you need to know? How fast do you think the revolving door has been turning between senior management at public correctional institutions and private sector prison companies over the last decade?

Well what could go wrong, right? The best case is that private enterprise is much more "efficient" at supplying the "services." Just like in US healthcare where 17% goes to administratiion (read redundancy, marketing, executive bonuses....) versus I think around 5% in Germany or France.

Why oh why do Americans cling to these albatroses? If you think government sucks, fix it. But don't tell me that there's some essential difference between running a private health consortium and say, managing the south of France's health care system. Both are managerial posts with budgets and goals etc. For god's sake, if you were running Enron's power generation business you'd be more out of touch with reality than any bureaucrat out there. She persevered in trying to actually produce a business while the only thing head office cared about was fudging the accounting to help goose the share price.

The thing that puzzles me is the cognitive distortion. If we like efficiency, increased productivity and so wealth you'd think we'd be ecumenical about how these are achieved and curious about different models or systems that seem to produce such outcomes... unless you are a certain kind of Anglo-saxon die hard in which case the recent abject-failure of a certain ""markets"-uber-alles-and-pass-the-stock-options" seems to be an invitation to redouble the efforts in a kind of Pol Pot pursuit of purity.

That's unfair to your original post, but honestly the whole point of the thread is to zoom out and take the long view. Do you really think that "justice" has somehow experienced a resurgence as evidenced by incarceration rates? Is there not a more obvious motivation for this?

Your making a lot of assumptions about me. Your trying to paint me as someone who would want privatized prisons or some enron criminal. I am also not an anglo-saxon, I guess you dislike those people too. Enron was able to control the power to various California regions and were able to create rolling blackouts where they could charge higher prices. This was possible due to the idiot voters who gave them the power and the incompetent officials who sold the ability to enron.

If something is wrong its the ability of the governments monopoly power rented out at election time to the highest bidder.

I never mentioned justice = incarceration rates, your once again loading the argument.

As an afterthought here's an interview with a crime reporter turned television producer - David Simon, creator of The Wire - taking about the reality on the ground in Baltimore:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04172009/watch.html

He's very straight forward about the reality: America, obviously, has no need for these people anymore and the only thing left is for the politicians to monetise the only remaining "unit of account" (i.e., delivered votes) in order to subsidize managing them.

I just cannot believe that America cannot do better than that.

I watched the interview and it touched alot of bases but they main thing was drugs and street life(drugs) vs non street life(no drugs)?

I wonder what would happen if drugs were legalized as David Simon and many propose. These 'thugs' would most likely be under priced and out competed by a an efficiently run business a.k.a. (white people). What would they do next? Riot? demand more welfare? read a book? How would they get their 'street credit'? excuse me for not using slang, 'street cred'? Start wandering into the suburbs? shooting up neighborhoods and schools? What would happen to your children and grandchildren with an even easier access to drugs? Would the drugs become like cigarettes, would they lose the stigma attached to it?

Have you ever known someone on drugs? Have you seen what it does? You ever watch an intervention show? People call marijuana a light drug compared to others. I have seen it f*ck up 2 of my good friends and people in the groups that those friends hung around. The strains that drugs bring on society can be seen from tv shows and news. Do the people who want legalized drugs actually want to expand this burden? Drugs are not funny or something to be played around with.

Interview was interesting but, I highly doubt anyone can fix the problems presented. It is what it is. Apparently America can't do better.


Anyway oddlots besides ranting at me, what was the main point you were trying to make?

[shiny!]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

The jail are for suckers. The real criminals never goes to jail. They run it.

+1

[jpatter666]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

Have you ever known someone on drugs? Have you seen what it does? You ever watch an intervention show? People call marijuana a light drug compared to others. I have seen it f*ck up 2 of my good friends and people in the groups that those friends hung around. The strains that drugs bring on society can be seen from tv shows and news. Do the people who want legalized drugs actually want to expand this burden? Drugs are not funny or something to be played around with.

That's an interesting question and one I've personally wrestled with for some time. Never had much use for drugs myself (excepting my favorite -- alcohol). Some time back I was very anti-(illegal) drugs for many of the same reasons you are -- I'd seen what they had done to some of my friends. Some died because of it.

As I grew older (and perhaps more cynical) I changed my mind. Right now, I favor legalization. Why? Because those that want drugs are going to get them. I've heard the arguments that we'd create a nation of drug users -- but, newsflash -- we already are there. It's just under the covers.

There is unfortunately no white or black, just shades of gray, but at this time, I see more benefit to legalization than enforcement.

1 ) You create a major new revenue stream (hey, with these deficits we need every dime)
2 ) The money taken in can fund education and treatment. With time, drug use may become like cigarettes -- no longer considered cool.
3 ) You undercut, if not eliminate, major sources of instability in Central/South America and Asia.

I'm not going to gloss over the negatives -- people will get addicted, die, commit acts of violence under the influence. But we have that now. We've been doing interdiction for forty years -- it's not working -- just like it did not work during Prohibition. Time for a different tack IMO.

[Ghent12]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

I don't see your post disagreeing with chr5648. He said the lockup rate is OK if they deserved it and received the benefit of proper legal proceedings. You said many of them didn't deserve it.

I'll agree with you that many didn't deserve it. Sometimes when you break the law, you did wrong. Sometimes, the law has run amuck.

You are right. Let me provide the clash right now. chr5648 says the thread title was loaded, but I don't believe it is. The ratio is there as a result of people going to jail or going under "correctional supervision" without deserving it because of laws and procedures that ought not to exist. The United States has the highest incarceration rate of the entire world. Other countries that crack the skulls of protesters, such as Iran or Libya or Israel, have one third to one half the incarceration rate. It is absurd and the ratio matters. The fact that the ratio is so high is indicative of a process gone far astray from any pretense of justice and fairness.

[Rajiv]

Re: “One in 31 Adults”

JP666,

The issues are slightly more complex than that. I suggest you go through some of Catherinr Austin Fitts articles.

Here is a suggested reading order.

Dillon, Read & Co. Inc. and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits

Solari Rising

Narco-Dollars for Beginners - "How the Money Works" in the Illicit Drug Trade

The Myth of the Rule of Law

Another article to read

Where The Narcodollars Go