Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

[shiny!]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

They get no traction because of people like Starving Steve on the left, and his ilk on the right.

American Politics is like British Soccer -- fans choose teams for life, and it matters not what they do.

You see this in CONgressional polling, where people rate CONgress continually lower each year, but then say their rep is good. It is mind numbing.

We have now had NO, ZERO, NADA budget for THREE YEARS. WTF?! This is what we ELECT them to do. This is their primary job, or at least what they are paid to do.


A note to Starving Steve and his ilk on the right. All the 'good stuff' was done in the past when the vote of the people actually mattered. Now it is just the dollars from K Street that matter. To continue to blindly believe in some ideology, when the facts support otherwise, is just plain foolish. Witness:

The 'supposed' liberal Clinton gave us job killing NAFTA, and market killing CFMA & repeal of Glass-Steagall.
The 'supposed' conservative GW Bush gave us Medicare part D, zero fiscal responsibility and The Patriot Act (to strip away our Constitutional rights)
The 'supposed' liberal Obama re-upped the Patriot Act, made it worse, and gave us the NDAA and the belief any American can be killed anywhere in the world anytime he says so.

Does anyone see anything strange in thos positions?

I could go on, but really, the facts speak for themselves.

+1! Unfortunately, facts won't change the minds of people who feel a need to BELIEVE in something different. For most people, the truth doesn't matter so much as the feeling of pleasure we get from hearing our beliefs mirrored back to us.

A study was done a few years ago that showed that when people hear talk that agrees with their beliefs, a part of their brain responds the same way it does for an addict receiving his drug of choice. This is why the far right listens to conservative talk radio and gets their news from WorldNetDaily, and the far left listens to liberal talk shows and gets their news from MoveOn.org. People don't want to hear anything that contradicts their beliefs, they simply want the pleasure of having their beliefs reinforced. If they really wanted to learn something new, they would listen with an open mind to arguments from people who disagree with them, because no one side has a total lock on the truth.

Re: Infant mortality rates:

Different countries use different criteria for defining a live birth and calculating infant mortality. In the United States, we consider any baby that is born with a heartbeat or muscle twitch as a live birth even if it dies within moments. When the baby dies, its death adds to our "high" infant mortality rate. Part of our high infant mortality rate comes from the high number of extremely low-birth-weight premature infants that are born here, then soon die. In other countries, those babies are not counted as live births. You have to be sure you're comparing apples to apples, or else you end up believing misleading statistics.

[cityqat]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Listen, dad, you need to know that you *NEED* to update your Will to include your daughters. They are left out in the cold by the sale of their only inheritance: Your house.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

My goodness, I'm not dead yet......

[Starving Steve]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Back then we were the world's biggest creditor. Now we're the world's biggest debtor.

Back in the 1950s, savers would bring their bank passbooks into banks (or saving and loan offices) and receive very interesting interest on their account balance. A machine would print their interest addition contributed by the bank ( or S&L ) into their passbook, and a new (updated) balance on their account would be printed. You were then handed back your passbook and offered candy out of their dish and thanked.... As you walked-out of the door of the bank, your account balance began to earn compound interest.

Before you left the bank, you could trade your paper money in for real, honest-to-goodness, silver dollars made in the 1878-1935 era. Or the bank teller would just pay you your change or withdrawal in a stack of silver dollars........ The whole experience was wonderful !

Now under Bernanke and that bunch running the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington, on a $100,000 account balance you might receive one-cent per day interest, if you are lucky. The receipt for your deposit you get is a tiny shred of paper, and nothing more. Your bank balance might be shrinking due to service charges on your account..... In order to even deal with the bank, you have to present an account number ( often 11 digits long, if not longer ) and a secret password or a secret phrase of passwords, as well ..... Meanwhile, the government covertly monitors your account activity in order to study your deposits and withdrawals and tax the one-cent interest per day that you might be lucky enough to receive..... And whatever the government doesn't grab in a tax audit or the bank doesn't grab in service charges, your account balance loses in purchasing power by the hidden inflation.

So, this is how savers are now treated in America and in Canada, too. Now for slow learners like myself, I have two questions to ask:

Why would anyone want to have a savings account now? Another question to ask: Why would the nation want to be a nation of savers and a nation which is a creditor nation to the world?

The entire experience of saving and thrift to-day is dismal. And sad to say, the zero interest rate policy in place now has made for America ( and Canada ) to become nations of debtors, and nations in debt to other nations in the world.

When you leave the bank to-day, the attitude in the air is: "Who were you, get lost and good-riddance, jerk.".... If your car hasn't been ticketed and towed-away outside, your drive home is filled with unanswered questions about your account activity and a general irritation from the whole banking experience.

[doom&gloom]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Ha ha! I am fighting with the IRS over interest I do not owe them. I missed a 1099 somehow, and owe them money from that. But they also found... a $7 discrepancy somewhere. $7.00

seriously...

this in a government that blows billions by the day with no clue.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Back in the 1950s, savers would bring their bank passbooks into banks (or saving and loan offices) and receive very interesting interest on their account balance. A machine would print their interest addition contributed by the bank ( or S&L ) into their passbook, and a new (updated) balance on their account would be printed. You were then handed back your passbook and offered candy out of their dish and thanked.... As you walked-out of the door of the bank, your account balance began to earn compound interest.

Before you left the bank, you could trade your paper money in for real, honest-to-goodness, silver dollars made in the 1878-1935 era. Or the bank teller would just pay you your change or withdrawal in a stack of silver dollars........ The whole experience was wonderful !

Now under Bernanke and that bunch running the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington, on a $100,000 account balance you might receive one-cent per day interest, if you are lucky. The receipt for your deposit you get is a tiny shred of paper, and nothing more. Your bank balance might be shrinking due to service charges on your account..... In order to even deal with the bank, you have to present an account number ( often 11 digits long, if not longer ) and a secret password or a secret phrase of passwords, as well ..... Meanwhile, the government covertly monitors your account activity in order to study your deposits and withdrawals and tax the one-cent interest per day that you might be lucky enough to receive..... And whatever the government doesn't grab in a tax audit or the bank doesn't grab in service charges, your account balance loses in purchasing power by the hidden inflation.

So, this is how savers are now treated in America and in Canada, too. Now for slow learners like myself, I have two questions to ask:

Why would anyone want to have a savings account now? Another question to ask: Why would the nation want to be a nation of savers and a nation which is a creditor nation to the world?

The entire experience of saving and thrift to-day is dismal. And sad to say, the zero interest rate policy in place now has made for America ( and Canada ) to become nations of debtors, and nations in debt to other nations in the world.

When you leave the bank to-day, the attitude in the air is: "Who were you, get lost and good-riddance, jerk.".... If your car hasn't been ticketed and towed-away outside, your drive home is filled with unanswered questions about your account activity and a general irritation from the whole banking experience.

When I was in elementary school in the mid 1970's we had a school based savings account program. We would bring our money in weekly to school to have the money deposited into our accounts and our savings passbooks updated. It was a great time throughout elementary school to SEE how compound interest worked.......and great tangible reinforcement for the importance of savings.

I can't imagine how incredibly useless, harmful, and counter productive an elementary school based savings program would be today, unless used as a lesson on failure likely TOO complex for younger children to grasp effectively.

If school kids opening up savings accounts today don't receive special treatment, they'll be going backwards with fees right into negative balances for insufficient minimum funds in account.

So my fear is that if I was raised amongst a cohort where many would have received a good basic positive foundation in savings/compound interest/debt/etc in how it functions properly(at school and at home)....what's going to happen in 5-10-15-20 years time when the cohorts coming through who have received a detrimental foundation in savings/compound interest/debt/etc are in their prime earning years?

[cityqat]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

My goodness, I'm not dead yet......

Understood. It is incredibly important to arrange things in advance. I, for instance, had everything arranged by the time I was 29 yrs old.

"LEAN FORWARD", right? I love you very much, dad, and only want your wishes and life to be honored to the tee.

[shiny!]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Back in the 1950s, savers would bring their bank passbooks into banks (or saving and loan offices) and receive very interesting interest on their account balance. A machine would print their interest addition contributed by the bank ( or S&L ) into their passbook, and a new (updated) balance on their account would be printed. You were then handed back your passbook and offered candy out of their dish and thanked.... As you walked-out of the door of the bank, your account balance began to earn compound interest.

Before you left the bank, you could trade your paper money in for real, honest-to-goodness, silver dollars made in the 1878-1935 era. Or the bank teller would just pay you your change or withdrawal in a stack of silver dollars........ The whole experience was wonderful !

Now under Bernanke and that bunch running the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington, on a $100,000 account balance you might receive one-cent per day interest, if you are lucky. The receipt for your deposit you get is a tiny shred of paper, and nothing more. Your bank balance might be shrinking due to service charges on your account..... In order to even deal with the bank, you have to present an account number ( often 11 digits long, if not longer ) and a secret password or a secret phrase of passwords, as well ..... Meanwhile, the government covertly monitors your account activity in order to study your deposits and withdrawals and tax the one-cent interest per day that you might be lucky enough to receive..... And whatever the government doesn't grab in a tax audit or the bank doesn't grab in service charges, your account balance loses in purchasing power by the hidden inflation.

So, this is how savers are now treated in America and in Canada, too. Now for slow learners like myself, I have two questions to ask:

Why would anyone want to have a savings account now? Another question to ask: Why would the nation want to be a nation of savers and a nation which is a creditor nation to the world?

The entire experience of saving and thrift to-day is dismal. And sad to say, the zero interest rate policy in place now has made for America ( and Canada ) to become nations of debtors, and nations in debt to other nations in the world.

When you leave the bank to-day, the attitude in the air is: "Who were you, get lost and good-riddance, jerk.".... If your car hasn't been ticketed and towed-away outside, your drive home is filled with unanswered questions about your account activity and a general irritation from the whole banking experience.

All true. Sad but true.

Here's an unasked-for piece of advice, if I may. I know that's always the worst kind, but I hope you'll forgive me.

Take care of your children. They come first! Take the day off and put your affairs in order, for their sake. True, you're not dead yet, but life is full of surprises (and bad drivers), as I found out to my dismay when my husband was killed last year. He drove off to work that morning full of life, and he was dead a few minutes later. Just take care of your kids, OK? Don't put it off.

[flintlock]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

American Politics is like British Soccer -- fans choose teams for life, and it matters not what they do.

Love the analogy, and so true!

[doom&gloom]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Understood. It is incredibly important to arrange things in advance. I, for instance, had everything arranged by the time I was 29 yrs old.

"LEAN FORWARD", right? I love you very much, dad, and only want your wishes and life to be honored to the tee.

Be sure to keep dad from toppling over as he leans forward -- falls for seniors can be quite serious you know!

[Raz]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

They get no traction because of people like Starving Steve on the left, and his ilk on the right.

American Politics is like British Soccer -- fans choose teams for life, and it matters not what they do.

You see this in CONgressional polling, where people rate CONgress continually lower each year, but then say their rep is good. It is mind numbing.

We have now had NO, ZERO, NADA budget for THREE YEARS. WTF?! This is what we ELECT them to do. This is their primary job, or at least what they are paid to do.


A note to Starving Steve and his ilk on the right. All the 'good stuff' was done in the past when the vote of the people actually mattered. Now it is just the dollars from K Street that matter. To continue to blindly believe in some ideology, when the facts support otherwise, is just plain foolish. Witness:

The 'supposed' liberal Clinton gave us job killing NAFTA, and market killing CFMA & repeal of Glass-Steagall.
The 'supposed' conservative GW Bush gave us Medicare part D, zero fiscal responsibility and The Patriot Act (to strip away our Constitutional rights)
The 'supposed' liberal Obama re-upped the Patriot Act, made it worse, and gave us the NDAA and the belief any American can be killed anywhere in the world anytime he says so.

Does anyone see anything strange in thos positions?

I could go on, but really, the facts speak for themselves.

+1. (But what do I know? I'm responsible for child poverty. But, hey? Why don't we just abort them ... problem solved!)

[astonas]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

+1! Unfortunately, facts won't change the minds of people who feel a need to BELIEVE in something different. For most people, the truth doesn't matter so much as the feeling of pleasure we get from hearing our beliefs mirrored back to us.

A study was done a few years ago that showed that when people hear talk that agrees with their beliefs, a part of their brain responds the same way it does for an addict receiving his drug of choice. This is why the far right listens to conservative talk radio and gets their news from WorldNetDaily, and the far left listens to liberal talk shows and gets their news from MoveOn.org. People don't want to hear anything that contradicts their beliefs, they simply want the pleasure of having their beliefs reinforced. If they really wanted to learn something new, they would listen with an open mind to arguments from people who disagree with them, because no one side has a total lock on the truth.

+1 This is a powerful observation, thank you for sharing it.

Is the conclusion we may reach from this that we are becoming a nation of belief-addicted partisans? (Both right and left.) And is there no escape?

Since belief is, quite literally, a self-created drug, one should be able to imagine a safe and appropriate dosage. That is to say, it can be a good thing, when a little bit is used to help dull some of the sharp and unhelpful pains that fill each life, or a bad thing, when it is used in sufficient doses to overwhelm reason itself.

I find this paradigm fascinating, especially because it has consequences for how people with different beliefs may function together harmoniously.

For example, under this paradigm, the measure of the value of belief is not in the conviction itself, but in its consequences. (Just as one selects the appropriate dose for a medicine.)

One person may be "sensitive" to a belief structure, and need very little to improve their life and those around them (while "overdosing" easily). Another might need very high dosages just to continue to function in a civilized manner each day, with little benefit from backing off to lower levels. If each acknowledges that it is OK to not have the same belief level or type, it gets easier to see the world as a collection of people trying to do what they need to do in life, and takes away the need to convince others of one's own correctness.

Perhaps for beliefs, as in all else, dosis sola facit venenum. Or more fully:
"Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy." -- Paracelsus

Do you happen to have a reference to the study you mentioned above? I'm curious what follow-on work has been done that cites it.

Thanks!

[Starving Steve]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

+1. (But what do I know? I'm responsible for child poverty. But, hey? Why don't we just abort them ... problem solved!)

Dear Raz and the rest of the people that are so concerned with abortion--- and maybe they should be concerned with abortion because a late-term fetus is bearable as a living person.... Fair enough. Science is on your side on that issue, at least for late-term fetuses.

But from the Huffington Post just to-day ( May 7, 2012 ) and posted online: LOUISIANA has an infant mortality rate of 10/1000 live births, using the standard criteria of the age group of babies ( live-birth until first birthday ). LOUISIANA reports 64,800 births per year in the year 2009, so using that figure for a standard year for live births, then LOUISIANA lets die by neglect or poverty,

0.01 X 64,800 = 648 babies which die during their first 12 months.

MISSISSIPPI lets 360 babies die in their first 12 months, mainly because it has a lower number of births due to a lower population in that state than LA.

The electorate in MS and LA are strongly anti-abortion and supposedly pro-life. Fair enough. But why do these two supposedly pro-life states allow so many living infants to die of poverty or neglect in their first year?

The average for infant deaths during their first year in America is about 6.5 per 1000, and even that national average can be reduced once the U.S. gets national health insurance for all people. Meanwhile, how can the religious-right, the pro-life bunch in the South, accept rates of 0.009 or 0.010 dead babies during their first year of life?

Shall I look at your state's statistics, Raz? Alabama?

Meanwhile, kids reading this post might make a copy of it and tack it onto the front-door of their local church. Let's get some "right-to-life" for infants, and not just for first-term fetuses and fertilized eggs.

But this is getting very interesting. What's going-on in the state, or province of Canada, or nation where you live?

Meanwhile Raz, I think you are on the correct side of the right-to-life debate. I am pro-life, as well..... ?Hay un lugar en Mexico o aqui en los Estados Unidos donde haya una persona que le gustan las aborciones? ( Is there a place in Mexico or here in the U.S. where there is someone who likes abortion ? )

[shiny!]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Do you happen to have a reference to the study you mentioned above? I'm curious what follow-on work has been done that cites it.

I read somewhere, "Belief is the Enemy of Truth". If I believe anything anymore, it's that ;-)

Here's an article about that study: The Political Brain- Scientific American

Here's the study itself: Neural Bases of Motivated Reasoning: An fMRI Study of Emotional Constraints on Partisan Political Judgment in the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election

Here's a book by the author of the study: The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation

[astonas]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Looks like I have some reading to do!

Thanks, shiny!