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  • #16
    Re: Israeli false flag attacks

    Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
    Itīs strange, but supposedly Iranian attacks in foreign countries have not produced a single death.
    The bomb that blew a car was, by all means an "old ladieīs fart" as we call here low level noise making petards.
    So, a country that produces ships, submarines, medium range missiles and puts satelites in orbit canīt make a bomb that just kills people in a car?
    The other bomb was "found" before it went off.
    And now, this strange story about an "Iranian" (with Iranian id.) blowing his own legs off.
    Please, if this is not an intoxication campaign, I have never in my life seen one.
    By the way: no proof exists that the two bombings of Jewish institutions in Argentina had anything to do with Iran.
    And never forget: the only country in history who massacred hundred of thousands of innocent people with atomic weapons sofar is........
    All excellent points.

    And I'm very impressed at the correct use of the obscure word "petard", nicely done.
    I don't believe I've ever seen the word used outside the old cliche "hoist on his own petard".
    .
    .
    Last edited by thriftyandboringinohio; 02-15-12, 12:36 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: Israeli false flag attacks

      Israel has been caught so many times false flagging they simply cannot be trusted, Iran notwithstanding.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Israeli false flag attacks

        Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
        You are correct. Your most likely scenario is idiotic.
        +1

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Israeli false flag attacks

          Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
          Itīs strange, but supposedly Iranian attacks in foreign countries have not produced a single death.
          The bomb that blew a car was, by all means an "old ladieīs fart" as we call here low level noise making petards.
          So, a country that produces ships, submarines, medium range missiles and puts satelites in orbit canīt make a bomb that just kills people in a car?
          The other bomb was "found" before it went off.
          And now, this strange story about an "Iranian" (with Iranian id.) blowing his own legs off.
          Please, if this is not an intoxication campaign, I have never in my life seen one.
          By the way: no proof exists that the two bombings of Jewish institutions in Argentina had anything to do with Iran.
          And never forget: the only country in history who massacred hundred of thousands of innocent people with atomic weapons sofar is........
          The US put man on the moon, invented the internet, and invented the transister yet it has also bungled things far worse at times than the 3 Stooges even could on a good day.

          How does the ability to manufacture cars or rockets mitigate or prevent an intelligence/asymmetric operation failure?

          As far as "massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people" I suppose a far better solution to ending a global war could be found with 65+ years of hindsight?

          Maybe folks who are sickened by the US use of nuclear weapons to end WWII should consider the intelligence estimates for casualties ranging from 1-2 million to over 10 million.

          Exemplified by the fact that there's STILL circa 100,000 Purple Heart medals left unissued based on the massive numbers manufactured in anticipation of the need to invade Japan....and that's after the quarter million or so issued since the end of WWII.

          Personally, I'm not sympathetic to your choice of words.

          I tend to think that while the enormous loss of life was terribly tragic....losses would have been far more enormous and far more tragic had a land invasion of Japan as planned proceeded.

          I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Israeli false flag attacks

            Originally posted by lakedaemonian
            I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.
            Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

            The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

            The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

            Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Israeli false flag attacks

              Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
              The US put man on the moon, invented the internet, and invented the transister yet it has also bungled things far worse at times than the 3 Stooges even could on a good day.

              How does the ability to manufacture cars or rockets mitigate or prevent an intelligence/asymmetric operation failure?

              As far as "massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people" I suppose a far better solution to ending a global war could be found with 65+ years of hindsight?

              Maybe folks who are sickened by the US use of nuclear weapons to end WWII should consider the intelligence estimates for casualties ranging from 1-2 million to over 10 million.

              Exemplified by the fact that there's STILL circa 100,000 Purple Heart medals left unissued based on the massive numbers manufactured in anticipation of the need to invade Japan....and that's after the quarter million or so issued since the end of WWII.

              Personally, I'm not sympathetic to your choice of words.

              I tend to think that while the enormous loss of life was terribly tragic....losses would have been far more enormous and far more tragic had a land invasion of Japan as planned proceeded.

              I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.
              +1

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

                The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

                The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

                Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.
                I agree, Japan was already defeated.
                And to show the inmense power of atomic bombs (which were already perfectly understood by scientists) just throwing one of them over an isolated and small military installation would have been enough.
                But here we are, Starving Steve asking to "trash Teheran", there seems to be people like him who get to highest office in the USA.
                Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
                Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                  Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
                  Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
                  Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.
                  I was talking to a British woman the other night at dinner. I flippantly said the US or Israel will probably bomb Iran in the run up to the November election. A pained look went over her face. She has many good friends in Iran who can't get out.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

                    The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

                    The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

                    Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.
                    What's wrong?

                    That the US can make some incredible achievements but still make horrible mistakes? Much like Iran can build cars and rockets, but still stuff up as well?

                    How is that wrong?

                    How are YOU not looking through the lens of history with perfect hindsight?

                    Were the intelligence estimates on casualties I posted wrong?

                    Maybe you should have a read of the horrorfest that would have resulted if Op Downfall/Olympic went forward.

                    Why would so many body bags and Purple Hearts have been manufactured and staged if they weren't expected to be used in the invasion of Japan's home islands?

                    Let's talk about "historical evidence":

                    You claim Japan was looking for ways to honorably surrender?

                    How, and how effectively, did they communicate this to the US Allies AT THE TIME?

                    What reliable intelligence did the US/allies have about Japan AT THE TIME? Modern persistent intelligence collection(which still has it's flaws) didn't exist at the time...not even close.

                    How can a nation responsible for such orgiastic violence in the Nanking and Manila Massacres be allowed to conditionally surrender and maintain regime continuity?

                    How could a nation responsible for horrific mistreatment, murder, cannibalism, and WMD weapons testing on of POWs be allowed to conditionally surrender with honor?

                    How could a nation who's military fought to the last man and whose civilians were indoctrinated to commit mass suicide on the outer islands be expected to act if directly invaded other than fight to the bitter end?

                    How could the US/allies NOT decisively break the will of the enemy to fight to the bitter end?

                    Past performance is indicative of future performance......Japan's past actions(including actions just days/weeks prior to Hiroshima in other Areas of Operation) justified the bombings.

                    IF a secondary objective was to demonstrate to the Soviets the capability of the US, then the result was excellent.......what would the Soviets have likely done had the war lasted another 1-2 years with a land invasion?

                    The Soviets amassed significant forces late in the war in the Manchurian Offensive...would they have sat it out and watched? Or would they have forced a split of Japan much like Korea....leading to another Cold War hot confrontation.

                    Seriously, sometimes I think you argue with folks on this forum just to argue or to pursue some sort of intellectual alpha male dominance.

                    ------

                    Which brings me to a separate note....this is not the first time I find your posts to be condescending, patronizing, and arrogant.....and I don't believe I am the only person on the forum that feels this way.

                    While I respect your intellect and the content of your posts at times, you seem to have a need to achieve some sort of intellectual dominance on most every topic you enter....which covers a broad spectrum of topics.... and it's worth noting that I've yet to meet anyone who has effectively achieved subject matter expertise in all.....although I've seen a few who have tried and failed.

                    Once again I appreciate your content most of the time, but your not my university professor and I strongly encourage you to consider how your posts are perceived and how you are shaping your perception in others eyes on this forum.

                    If at anytime I've come across as arrogant, patronizing, or condescending to you or anyone else on this forum I certainly hope I get called out on it.....as that is never my intent.

                    I also understand that I have far more to learn than offer on this forum......but all I detect in you is teacher and never student....sorry...that's just my honest perspective and perception.

                    ------

                    I'm well aware of Bomber Harris and Curtis LeMay and their fire bombing campaigns.....at the time mass urban centres of gravity(manufacturing/distribution and their work forces) were considered legitimate targets....and I find it bizarre that so much focus is placed on Hiroshima and Nagasaki when so much more damage and destruction was caused in previous firebombing campaigns...yet the focus is on the two nuclear bombings? Firebombing that caused FAR more death and destruction didn't end the war......but two nukes did......which I think lends support towards their legitimate and effective use....regardless of how incredibly destructive they were....the number of dead Americans/Allies were likely far less.....and the same goes for Japanese casualties...even though the consideration of that was probably of very little consequence at the time.

                    I perceive in your post a definitive Monday Morning Quarterback OPINION that fails to consider the reasonable intelligence picture available AT THE TIME which included the massive casualties of the very recent, very real, and very tangible Battles of Manila, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.

                    It's easy to poo poo the use of nuclear weapons against Hiroshima and Nagasaki with clinical dispassion and 65+ years of perfect 20/20 hindsight to put the pieces of the puzzle together like a game of Risk.

                    Just my opinion.....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                      Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
                      I agree, Japan was already defeated.
                      And to show the inmense power of atomic bombs (which were already perfectly understood by scientists) just throwing one of them over an isolated and small military installation would have been enough.
                      But here we are, Starving Steve asking to "trash Teheran", there seems to be people like him who get to highest office in the USA.
                      Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
                      Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.
                      A couple points:

                      "perfectly understood by scientists"

                      Whose scientists? Japan's? Did they? I'm not trying to come across like an @hole but communication between the scientific community during that period especially in/out of Japan would surely have been weak....so I question dissemination of accurate atomic weapon capabilities during that time.

                      WHY RISK dropping one in a show of force? I capitalized those particular words for a reason(not trying to be difficult).....seriously...have a look at Japan's defensive posture as the US/Allies approached Japan......island hopping operation casualties were becoming VERY, VERY worrisome.

                      Also, have a look at the US nuclear program at the time.....it might be worthwhile in considering it carefully when we frame the debate on Iran....the ability of the US to produce working nuclear weapons with a high degree of reliability was poor and low volume....the same could be said of Iran if/when they gain the capability.

                      So the US didn't have much wiggle room in making a visual statement offshore just beyond Tokyo Bay.

                      If the fireworks display didn't have the intended effect....that cut in half the number of weapons available to the US to force the end of the war.

                      While we can(and probably will) debate the appropriate course of action for the United States in August 1945......what is not up for debate is the effectiveness of the result...the US achieved it's intended foreign policy objective....the unconditional surrender of Japan and the final end of a very bloody world war.

                      I am biased......my maternal grandfather served in the Pacific Theatre of Operations and would have directly participated in the invasion of Japan had it gone ahead.

                      To me, the end of the war with Japan was the least bad realistic option given the intelligence available at the time.....rather than debating the justification of the two nukes dropped, I think it far more relevant to discuss the economic action that helped shape Japan's initiating a war as well as the logistics of the Manhattan project and how they both directly apply to Iran and it's actions today.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                        and THANK YOU for putting that comment (about ww2) into proper perspective, LD.
                        i get quite tired of the ole american/liberal guilt trip on this issue.
                        with all due respect to our japanese friends, its also why (most of) hawai`i speaks english today.
                        another couple of months and germany might've been successful in that endeavor and today we'd all likely be speaking german.

                        Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
                        The US put man on the moon, invented the internet, and invented the transister yet it has also bungled things far worse at times than the 3 Stooges even could on a good day.

                        How does the ability to manufacture cars or rockets mitigate or prevent an intelligence/asymmetric operation failure?

                        As far as "massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people" I suppose a far better solution to ending a global war could be found with 65+ years of hindsight?

                        Maybe folks who are sickened by the US use of nuclear weapons to end WWII should consider the intelligence estimates for casualties ranging from 1-2 million to over 10 million.

                        Exemplified by the fact that there's STILL circa 100,000 Purple Heart medals left unissued based on the massive numbers manufactured in anticipation of the need to invade Japan....and that's after the quarter million or so issued since the end of WWII.

                        Personally, I'm not sympathetic to your choice of words.

                        I tend to think that while the enormous loss of life was terribly tragic....losses would have been far more enormous and far more tragic had a land invasion of Japan as planned proceeded.

                        I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                          Two or three nukes dropt onto the cities of Iran, and I can guarantee that the Islamists of the Middle-East will be shipping their pants. I can guarantee that their ideas of so-called "reform" in the Middle-East and their ideas of what an "Arab spring" is will change dramatically. I can guarantee that the moderate leaders in the Middle-East (like Mubarek) will no longer be in jail.

                          Even a well-done nightime saturation fire-bombing of Tehran and the other major cities in Iran would cause a C-change in the thinking in the Middle-East. The angry crowds and hate rallies would be gone. All of the friends of Iran (Hesbollah and Hamas) would be gone. The people of Iran would have a choice: co-operate with the rest of the world, or perish.

                          All that the U.S. military would have to do is press a few buttons, and a micro-computer would manage the air-strike after that.

                          Similar to the pre-WWII days, without taking punative military action like this, America and its allies will be seen as unwilling, decaying, worn-out, decadent, and out-of-favour with Heaven. Without taking decisive, yet simple, military action to define how the world is going to function, America and its allies will be viewed as oppressive, exploitive, zionist and imperialist --- with the so-called "dollar hegemony", etc.

                          Sad to say, this is how we are seen now in dealing with Iran.
                          Last edited by Starving Steve; 02-15-12, 11:25 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                            If anything the most likely scenario is Israel, in a truly desperate situation, sets off its own bomb in a suburb of Tel Aviv in order to garner world sympathy.
                            I'm happy that sentence started with "if anything."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                              ross is pretty much a hawk....today nytimes

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/op...ef=todayspaper

                              SPECULATION about an Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities is rife, but there is little discussion about whether diplomacy can still succeed, precluding the need for military action.

                              Many experts doubt that Tehran would ever accept a deal that uses intrusive inspections and denies or limits uranium enrichment to halt any advances toward a nuclear weapons capability, while still permitting the development of civilian nuclear power. But before we assume that diplomacy can’t work, it is worth considering that Iranians are now facing crippling pressure and that their leaders have in the past altered their behavior in response to such pressure. Notwithstanding all their bluster, there are signs that Tehran is now looking for a way out.

                              Much has changed in the last three years. In January 2009, Iran was spreading its influence throughout the Middle East, and Arab leaders were reluctant to criticize Iran in public lest they trigger a coercive Iranian reaction. Similarly, Iran’s government wasn’t facing significant economic pressures; Iranians had simply adjusted to the incremental sanctions they were then facing.

                              Today, Iran is more isolated than ever. The regional balance of power is shifting against Tehran, in no small part because of its ongoing support for the beleaguered government of Bashar al-Assad in Syria. The Assad regime is failing, and in time, Iran will lose its only state ally in the Arab world and its conduit for arming the militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Israeli false flag attacks

                                If anything the most likely scenario is Israel, in a truly desperate situation, sets off its own bomb in a suburb of Tel Aviv in order to garner world sympathy.
                                Idiotic? Pot meet kettle!

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