What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Raz:

You did not insult the Norwegians - but a variety of other commenters here were slinging back dumb slanders every bit as uniformed as those they received.

These were not my observations, so I am not sure why you are expecting me to hang on to every word uttered by a Norwegian about the sociopolitical complexity of the constitutional right to bear arms in this country, which is a right which has largely disappeared in many EU countries, and which they chronically misunderstand. Incidentally, they misunderstand it for the same reasons so many Americans misunderstand their societies, which are viewed by some of our members here apparently as one tiny step removed from communist prisons. :rolleyes:

I was not particularly impressed by the heated and generically dismissive rejoinders from others about Norway, Europeans, or other such "spineless socialist-international air-heads" (paraphrasing) either - such responses are long on "heat" and short on "clarification" as to precisely what is at the core of this sociopolitical understanding. It is a core cultural divergence and misunderstanding which I have seen crop up between Europeans and Americans with monotonous regularity.

Nero3's seat of the pants dismissals about American "gun nut" culture, or words to that effect, kicked off this firestorm and a lot of really nasty comments rained down on the guy. The nasty comments may have been only reactive, but they also were not very enlightening.

Please note: America's constitutional right to bear arms is by no means immune to becoming dysfunctional in it's own right, even though it may be in response to dysfunctionalities that are not of it's own doing.

All the same, for the generic comments about the proliferation of firearms ownership in response to this crisis, as being a symptom typical of "Southerner's culture" - I freely grant you have the right to your own dismissive response. I will reiterate - you may consent to recall, that my own comments in the past evidence I don't subscribe to this cartooned view about the South as having exported a "gun nut" culture to the rest of the country, which is a generic and pernicious cartoon of the 200 year old social and political complexity behind this question in America. Am I being clear enough?

I'll get to your post below when you explain to me just how I insulted the people of Norway.:confused: ... thinking that he couldn't really be serious. Now that I know he is I don't intend to waste any more time.

[Raz]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Raz - you guys keep trading inflammatory comments such as all these and I guarantee you each won't see a chink of daylight regarding any vestigial scrap of a rational comment from the other side. Why? Because the emotions cause the trading of allegations to take on a caricature quality which only reinforces your view of all of them as idiots, and their view of you as idiots. It goes absolutely nowhere and serves absolutely nothing.

See my post below.

I'll get to your post below when you explain to me just how I insulted the people of Norway.:confused: http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=92238#poststop

I suggest you practice "turning the other cheek" when you have been personally insulted by an arrogant ass such as your Norwegian friend. HE began the insults, not me. And his position is so absurd it is practically impossible to address it without a response that the holder of such ideas would consider inflammatory.

I have known a few "nero3s" in my lifetime. I could care less what he thinks. I came to this website to get the economic and investment opinions of Eric Janszen, not to be admitted to some "club" or debating society. I only responded to him out of incredulity, thinking that he couldn't really be serious. Now that I know he is I don't intend to waste any more time.

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Raz - you guys keep trading inflammatory comments such as all these and I guarantee you each won't see a chink of daylight regarding any vestigial scrap of a rational comment from the other side. Why? Because the emotions cause the trading of allegations to take on a caricature quality which only reinforces your view of all of them as idiots, and their view of you as idiots. It goes absolutely nowhere and serves absolutely nothing.

See my post below.

Yes, a "clearer picture" can emerge from an outsider who has (1) never lived in your country, (2) has absolutely no knowledge or understanding of its criminal element and all those attending problems, and (3) looks down upon you as an ignorant, "primitive" neo-savage who desperately needs instruction from culturally and morally superior North Europeans.:rolleyes:

If "some country were to attack you" - assuming most of the men in Norway held your views - you would become the pillaged and bespoiled slaves you deserve to be. Personally I find it impossible to believe that a majority of Norwegians are such utopian fools, and I would certainly support any attempt to help defend your country.

And yes, we all know the only reason Norway pumps crude oil from the North Sea is due to its altruism.:rolleyes:

I'm weary of conversing with you, nero3. I prefer the conversation of grownups.
Stick to discussing financial matters because your social ideas are simply not rooted in reality.

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

Raz - I'm not so sure about the "eager anticipation of your next utterances" bit, but the rest of your comment I found fairly well in order. In case that's not clear enough to you, I am hard put to it not to accept the great majority of your viewpoint The cartoon stereotypes of the South leave me particularly unimpressed, as I believe you've already noted elsewhere? Please note, that a great number of cartoon stereotypes have gotten flung around from all quarters on this topic, with escalating din and emotional noise.

Perhaps I have not made myself clear - I am not in agreement with Nero on some large portions of his assessment of the US. So it's not necessary for you to issue caricature remarks as to my own position. Actually probably best for all sides not to issue caricature remarks of the other side either. Meantime I don't think it's necessary to go into a long laundry list of all the views Nero3 demonstrates which I'm quite familiar with as being perhaps on the insular side of EU viewpoints about America. I know this because I spent half my life over there and don't for a minute buy any of them.

Nero3 this applies to your references to the purportedly dumbed down "Southern" US propensity for arms. It's in the same rather inane category of crass and not really insightful generalizations as anyone here claiming that a country of 4 million people (Norwegians) not putting up "more of a fight" against 80 million strong Germany in WWII (their populations were smaller, but the ratio the same) represents a "lack of spine". Such careless generic slanders cut deep down into the feelings of Americans (and Norwegians in the other analogy) because in the US case, we are already are saddled with what is shaping up to be an essentially kleptocratic government and we may even skirt into a constitutional crisis at some point if the solutions don't become more intelligent quickly.

I don't have any interest in going into a laundry list of the views you may hold which I likely disagree with regarding the manifestation of people arming here in 2009. There are many nuances to understanding this which we probably look at very differently. Here's a core point though, to understanding your "cousins" on this side of the Atlantic. There is a vastly different culture in the Americas than in Norther Europe. That's a different culture in all the Americas.

In the US, for the better part of two centuries the bearing of arms at the civilian level has been part of a robust enfranchisement of the civilian population, which is so in a way that you can't understand unless you grew up with the US constitution, which BTW is not a bad document for social organization. It carries this right to arms at it's core - so this is not a "gun nut" issue as a Norwegian might view it, but rather at some level a celebration of the original constitution's instent. Of course it's not that simple - when we get to where every family is armed, evidently something is wrong.

But the intent of the original constitutional right to arms, is a feature of Republic which Americans (and likely a lot of people in other countries also) understand at it's most sober and responsible level to be a legitimate and respectable plank in a constitutional organization. What this feature of the US Constitution intended, was to render in this one respect, some continuing degree of parity to government for the civilian population. The constitution wished to not remove all of their teeth, in their "continuing dialogue" with Government down through the centuries after the founding of the country.

There is a criticism which can be leveled at very highly ordered and peaceful societies such as Scandinavia's countries - This "idea" about the ideal nature of a "Republic" where the civilian branch is permitted certain extraordinary independences from the government, is a practice that has long since evaporated in very many of the much older European countries. Therefore what you regard as "civilized" or "uncivilized" on this question may be culturally a bit simplistic - and further, it may have a degree of parochialism. Unless you have spent some years living anywere on this continent, your comments do evidence an idealised view which I'm well familiar with in the older countries of Europe, because I lived half of my life there (25+ years). I say "idealised" because you have a tiny and very homogeneous population, have for many decades been free of the burden of figuring out the nation's defense because it was taken care of by a larger alliance, and so forth.

If many decades pass and a very small nation by population remains free of anything but a token defense, and meanwhile they are extremely homogenous as a society, it is quite easy to slip into assumptions that the rest of the world must in great part be fundamentally similar. I know from living half my life on the European side, that such conceits do exist among a large number of Europeans. I will say on the other hand that there are many things about the civility of Europeans which I certainly admire and wish for. But there is a socio-political complexity in the right to bear arms issue in America which your book-learned understanding of America is missing completely, and I've seen this before in other Europeans.

So to Raz I'd like to say this: There were some things I was trying to put across which were not nearly as alien to your viewpoint as you think - yet it seems you've missed them. I believe the most serious housecleaning which can be accomplished in the US to recover from the parassitic infestation we are undergoing is to take advantage of the coming severe societal stresses to push for a grassroots boycott of the functions of Wall Street and the Federal Reserve - that is done with means which have nothing remotely to do with armed militias. And the real point is, that even if the arming of the population renders it's voice more significant to government, without the political and economic education of the population on what needs shutting down in Government and Wall Street, we will only stumble form one crisis into a worse one.

I don't like cartoon stereotypes - don't like them applied to you, don't like them applied to Nero3, to iTulip itself, and least of all to myself.

I'm sure Lukester is waiting with eager anticipation of your next utterance.

[Raz]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Sometimes, I think the clearer picture can emerge from an outside perspective. People in the US don't want Europe or China to tell them what to do, and Obama have more of the European view, thats why he is more popular here than in the US. A lot of people living in the US don't have that perspective about the US, and the US role in the world. People who are in a situation, loose track, and get something I refer to as tunnel vision. In Oslo 100 % of all 40 plus assault rapes that were submitted to the police over the last 3 years, was done by non native Norwegians. Mostly men from Africa and Turkey. It seems some here are attributing a lot of views to me, that I don't have just because it would be part of a left wing stereotype. What I am saying is just that I feel less safe in a friends house, not more safe, if I knew they had a gun and was worried about intruders, compared to if they did not have a gun, as I would be more worried about them using the gun on me, than on a intruder, because I am the kind of guy that go with the numbers, not the emotions. A lot of people in Norway, have their old Army weapon, somewhere, that they might not even know where is, its not as a protection against intruders. Some farmers have a hand gun, so they can kill some sick animal. The guns here that are for the fear purpose people have them in the US, is extremely rare compared to what the numbers might suggest. If some country were to attack us, then I am pretty much sure we would loose. The only country that could save us would be the US and NATO. That is why we are pumping oil at full speed, and never, intentionally have operated below capacity.

Yes, a "clearer picture" can emerge from an outsider who has (1) never lived in your country, (2) has absolutely no knowledge or understanding of its criminal element and all those attending problems, and (3) looks down upon you as an ignorant, "primitive" neo-savage who desperately needs instruction from culturally and morally superior North Europeans.:rolleyes:

If "some country were to attack you" - assuming most of the men in Norway held your views - you would become the pillaged and bespoiled slaves you deserve to be. Personally I find it impossible to believe that a majority of Norwegians are such utopian fools, and I would certainly support any attempt to help defend your country.

And yes, we all know the only reason Norway pumps crude oil from the North Sea is due to its altruism.:rolleyes:

I'm weary of conversing with you, nero3. I prefer the conversation of grownups.
Stick to discussing financial matters because your social ideas are simply not rooted in reality.

[BadJuju]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

I sure hope you are no more than thirty, nero3. Perhaps you will one day be "mugged by reality". I just hope you don't lose your life in getting that education.

An ardent support of liberal politics would, at least in my mind, be in favor of people having a right to bear arms. I think you are confusing general Democrat party doctrine with liberal politics.

I am an ardent liberal that believes in the right to bear arms. And I also think that quote by Churchill is ridiculous. :p

[Raz]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

I think you need principles perhaps. Splendid response, Nero3. My points are "unprincpled". Thank heavens for your Nordic/European superiority without which we "primitive" Americans would be socially impoverished. The arguments you use are pretty much the same that the police would use if they wanted to question a pacifist, that did not want to join the military (in the past). Then they would always bring up that situation with your wife, or someone you care about, just to make you say something, so that they are like "aha, so you are not a pacifist" after all. I respect the right of a true pacifist to decline military service and take a noncombatant position within the military or an auxillary service, the medical core for example. And it would be an act of real courage to stand against conscription so as not to participate in an aggressive war. But again. With no nuclear weapons no nuclear war. With no weapons in the house, much less chance of killing family members and friends, and with no army, much less chance of a War, And with no common sense, we get nero3. This is pure, unadulterated, utopian hogwash. You are trying very hard to present yourself as a man who is (1) appallingly ignorant, or (2) willfully blind to manifest reality. and if the US could behave in the world, much less terrorism as well. Yes, we should have left you to the tender mercy of Joseph Stalin and the "worker's paradise" the Soviets bestowed upon Checkoslovakia, Hungary and Poland. I have been screaming for the United States to withdraw from NATO since 1993, and from South Korea since 1995. BUT, I agree that much of the resentment of my country is due to the American Government acting as if the world cannot operate without our intervention. Personally, I don't give a rat's-rear-end what happens to Europe or Asia. We can all look to the sophisticated, morally superior French, German and Nordic people to supply the world with answers to its problems. (Just make sure you have plenty of Burkas for your women.)
This is brain and statistics, vs more the primitive southern culture held by people such as yourself.

Well, what can I say. I'm so "primitive" you really can't hold me to your high standards.
I'm sure Lukester is waiting with eager anticipation of your next utterance.
As for me, I don't know whether to laugh or vomit.

Churchill said that a man under the age of thirty has no heart unless he is Liberal. But a man who is over the age of forty yet remains one has no brain.
I sure hope you are no more than thirty, nero3. Perhaps you will one day be "mugged by reality". I just hope you don't lose your life in getting that education.

[nero3]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Yes, we are much less protective of criminals here, although many on the left would like to change that.

Cowards are the ones who think it's ok to let someone come into their home and rob them blind, rather than defend what's theirs.

I think the person not needing the gun to feel safe would be much less of a chicken, that should be obvious.

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

We have nothing boast about in the US prison system. It's one step away from getting "privatized", isn't it? The current administration might not wish to go that route (prison privatization) but when the country gets broke enough, who's betting none of it gets subcontracted out? Will we see the subcontractor's stock on the US exchanges get a "makeover" as a growth stock maybe?

Then America will really be flying high. But it's allright because we on the outside will all be armed to the teeth with "equalizers", and it's well known that the vast swathe of America's middle and working classes is populated 100% by calm, rational people. :p Human irascibility and unpredictability has nothing to do with it - and "good custodial weapons training" will maintain a surprisingly good civil order? I love optimism. It's so constructive.

I am not in any way against gun rights. Just pointing out that the mixture becomes infinitely more "combustible" as the wave of arming to the teeth goes mainstream. That's the actuarial point here, isn't it?

And the more significant question remains: is a re-instituting of a nationwide militia (apparently implicitly ongoing by popular groundswell) a more assured path to regenerative transformation for the country than say, a grassroots campaign which centered solely on civil disobedience - with maybe 40% of the working population agreeing to go on a coordinated taxpayer strike?

One involves merely going out and buying a gun to keep the family safe from predators. Well at least the initial gun buying part is easy. The other involves the near impossible task of educating 40% of the nation in the wisdom of coordinated and overwhelming tax revolt - anchored in a sober plan for reform thereafter - as the best alternative route to transforming our system. In other words, one is easy and the other almost hopelessly difficult.

Seems like Peter Schiff's quixotic dad after all these futile years taking a "misguided and fruitless stand" against the Fed (refusing for years to acknowledge the legitimacy of their taxation) might be dusted off here and refurbished as an "interesting role model"? (we've really come far if we are looking at that prospect). An armed militia may surprisingly turn out to be a less efficient means.

[Master Shake]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

The law in the US is much less protective of the Criminal than here. Here you cannot do manslaughter. That is what you think is your right. At least now how I interpret it. I just think guns are a cowards way, if the person you are trying to protect against don't have a gun. And of they do, then it just increases the chance that lives will get lost, meaning its counterproductive.

Yes, we are much less protective of criminals here, although many on the left would like to change that.

Cowards are the ones who think it's ok to let someone come into their home and rob them blind, rather than defend what's theirs.

[BadJuju]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Having a gun when a criminal comes at you increases the probability that you'll be able to defend yourself (and your family/friends).

That is one risk I am willing to take! :cool:

[Master Shake]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Judging who should have them, actually is wrong. Human nature just is the way it is. It's not the skills operating the gun, that's the thing as I think. I think that's not where the problem lies. It's more that those who are worried enough to buy a gun also is more likely to shoot down a thief, get paranoid on their wife, the full package really. You can't make that judgment. Nobody, should have a gun, more guns means more murders. Having a gun, when a criminal comes at you, just increases the risk.

You're a TFI.

Having a gun when a criminal comes at you increases the probability that you'll be able to defend yourself (and your family/friends).

[nero3]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Lukester wrote:



I stand by every word I've written on the subject of his personal pacifism.
And I have a LOT more to say to the gentleman from Norway as soon as I can get some work done so I'll have the time.

Sometimes, I think the clearer picture can emerge from an outside perspective. People in the US don't want Europe or China to tell them what to do, and Obama have more of the European view, thats why he is more popular here than in the US. A lot of people living in the US don't have that perspective about the US, and the US role in the world. People who are in a situation, loose track, and get something I refer to as tunnel vision. In Oslo 100 % of all 40 plus assault rapes that were submitted to the police over the last 3 years, was done by non native Norwegians. Mostly men from Africa and Turkey. It seems some here are attributing a lot of views to me, that I don't have just because it would be part of a left wing stereotype. What I am saying is just that I feel less safe in a friends house, not more safe, if I knew they had a gun and was worried about intruders, compared to if they did not have a gun, as I would be more worried about them using the gun on me, than on a intruder, because I am the kind of guy that go with the numbers, not the emotions. A lot of people in Norway, have their old Army weapon, somewhere, that they might not even know where is, its not as a protection against intruders. Some farmers have a hand gun, so they can kill some sick animal. The guns here that are for the fear purpose people have them in the US, is extremely rare compared to what the numbers might suggest. If some country were to attack us, then I am pretty much sure we would loose. The only country that could save us would be the US and NATO. That is why we are pumping oil at full speed, and never, intentionally have operated below capacity.

[Raz]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Lukester wrote:

"...the self righteous American accusations of cowardice of Norway in WWII, the suggestions that those who make arguments such as you do, must "lack a stiff spine" or some such nonsense, I wish to dissociate myself from those comments."

Lukester - would you please reread my post and explain to me where I accused the people of Norway of cowardice in World War II? In point of fact, I praised the people of Norway!!! :confused:

And I believe the point about America bringing some of this "blowback" upon itself is true. That's one of the main reasons I'm proud of the fact that I never voted for Bush. BUT, the point of discussion was on a personal issue - not a national one. It was your good friend Nero3 who moved it to that realm when he insulted me as one living in the Southern US, and the rest of America as well.

I stand by every word I've written on the subject of his personal pacifism.
And I have a LOT more to say to the gentleman from Norway as soon as I can get some work done so I'll have the time.

[jwonks]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

The Kellermann study you cite has been disputed by guys like John Lott and Gary Kleck.

The main point of contention is that only a small percentage of the victims murdered were killed by guns belonging to the victim and/or house-members. In other words, in the cases studied, the murderer was more likely to kill the victim with a gun that was kept outside the victim's home thus blowing a huge hole in the theory that guns kept in the victim's home increases gun related homicides to the point if offsets the benefits of keeping a gun for home defense.

Another point of contention is that the study seems to gloss over the underlying factor which is domestic violence and its causes. That is, gun ownership are only a means to domestic violence and not the cause.