PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

[jimmygu3]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I think the metabolic meaning of saturated fat, because it correlates with group hunting success, beginning perhaps half a million years ago, is that food is abundant, you can stop eating now.

I'm curious about this. It seems to me that when early humans made a kill, the ideal thing to do was to eat as much as possible before the meat spoiled and predators came to fight you for it. Isn't the hunters' "abundance" quite fleeting?

Jimmy

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I'm very familiar with the Budwig diet, and actually did it myself for a short time (I have a definite dislike of the taste of ground flax seeds as a result).

One of my favorite snacks is a mix of cottage cheese, flaxseed oil, turmeric and cayenne pepper. I haven't died of cancer yet, so it must be working ;)! (Actually, I've never had cancer, nor has any blood relative had it, so it's not at the top of my scare list.)

[Sharky]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I'm very familiar with the Budwig diet, and actually did it myself for a short time (I have a definite dislike of the taste of ground flax seeds as a result). I think it might have some use in the extreme healing phase of certain illnesses, particularly for certain types of cancer. However, my feeling is that ground flaxseeds and flax oil are much too extreme on the omega-3 side for regular consumption.

I much prefer coconut oil or possibly palm oil or cold-pressed olive oil. Coconut oil is nice because it has lots of medium chain triglycerides, which are more readily metabolised.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

What I am arguing against is folks doing stir fry with corn oil and then taking O-3 supplements. That seems a little dumb. They are taking it like a drug. If they viewed it as a compensatory supplement, they would stop eating the industrial oils first, then supplement if still out of balance.

Yup - well said. Like paying extra to put only organic lipstick on ones pig.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Well said, Roger. Thank-you.

I'm also partial to coconut oil and macadamia nut oil. Their high smoke temperatures make them good for cooking if one doesn't have lard. I would read with interest your comments on them.

My current naive bias is to notice more the ratio of PUFA Omega 3's and 6's in my diet, and the quality of the Omega 6's especially, which are delicate, so either frequently processed (made harmful with hydrogenation) or rancid. You seem to be recommending more just reducing all PUFA's in the diet. It will likely take more evidence, more convincing, more concurring opinions and more consideration on my part before I am persuaded to just minimize all PUFA's, even the highest quality.

I am pondering the agreements and disagreements between your recommendations and those of Dr. Johanna Budwig. Hopefully you are not too offended that I would even mention her in a reply to you. She is most famous for her cottage cheese and flaxseed oil concoction. Certainly the adoring support she gets in the nutrition columns sets off my BS alarms, as well as do the testimonies "I got up from my cancer deathbed and became cancer free on this simple diet". Seldom does truth lie behind such cover.

However there are some strange (to my non-biochemist mind) similarities (avoid processed oils and refined carbs) and sharp disagreements (on meat.) I wonder how can it be that two seemingly smart people, considering the question of lipids in the human diet, come to such fractured dissent. Do you see how to separate any wheat from the chaff in Dr. Budwig's work? Or is there simply too much chaff to make such an effort worth your time?

My website is great for patients and friends to follow the PaNu plan without reading through 280 + posts here.

But I still like to keep the conversation going with the critical (in a positive sense) crowd here at itulip. You guys challenge me and keep me on my toes.

Thank You!

I love coconut oil, I just glossed over it in that post, as it's kind of a health nut thing- you can't even buy it in my small town.

Have to confess I've not heard of Johanna Budwig. Cottage cheese sounds fine. Flaxseed is primarily a source of alpha-linolenic acid which is not as efficient a source of O-3s as fish oil. Of course, I don't really like to eat varnish or paint, so linseed oil doesn't seem too appealing.;)

Could be the main difference is some vegan superstition thing while trying to get a high fat diet. Like trying to stay dry while surfing if you ask me. You could surf in a dry suit but what's the point?

If her diet is super low carb to the point of being ketogenic, it could slow cancer progression.

I'll look her up.

Regarding the PUFA amount versus ratios, there is really no conflict. Almost any diet with excess PUFAs is dominated by 6s, so reducing total PUFAs in total reduces your ratio. (unless you eat zero meat or butter or cream)Look up the ratio in the biggest PUFA sources and you will see 15 or 20 to 1 ratios. Toss them out and even a grain fed steak gets you down to 3 or 4 to 1 with no supplementation. Add a small fish pill dose and you are there at 2:1

What I am arguing against is folks doing stir fry with corn oil and then taking O-3 supplements. That seems a little dumb. They are taking it like a drug. If they viewed it as a compensatory supplement, they would stop eating the industrial oils first, then supplement if still out of balance.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Well said, Roger. Thank-you.

I'm also partial to coconut oil and macadamia nut oil. Their high smoke temperatures make them good for cooking if one doesn't have lard. I would read with interest your comments on them.

My current naive bias is to notice more the ratio of PUFA Omega 3's and 6's in my diet, and the quality of the Omega 6's especially, which are delicate, so either frequently processed (made harmful with hydrogenation) or rancid. You seem to be recommending more just reducing all PUFA's in the diet. It will likely take more evidence, more convincing, more concurring opinions and more consideration on my part before I am persuaded to just minimize all PUFA's, even the highest quality.

I am pondering the agreements and disagreements between your recommendations and those of Dr. Johanna Budwig. Hopefully you are not too offended that I would even mention her in a reply to you. She is most famous for her cottage cheese and flaxseed oil concoction. Certainly the adoring support she gets in the nutrition columns sets off my BS alarms, as well as do the testimonies "I got up from my cancer deathbed and became cancer free on this simple diet". Seldom does truth lie behind such cover.

However there are some strange (to my non-biochemist mind) similarities (avoid processed oils and refined carbs) and sharp disagreements (on meat.) I wonder how can it be that two seemingly smart people, considering the question of lipids in the human diet, come to such fractured dissent. Do you see how to separate any wheat from the chaff in Dr. Budwig's work? Or is there simply too much chaff to make such an effort worth your time?

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

RM,

Just FYI, I have really been enjoying reading your posts and blog. The PaNu argument makes a lot of sense, especially in the tiered approach you offer.

I have for many years avoided artificial foods, but until reading your articles I never thought of processed grains, sugar, fruit juices & seed oils as "artificial". OK, maybe not artificial, more like"naturally occurring but mechanically enhanced to become edible in unnatural amounts".

There was a guy on Bill Maher's show a few weeks ago talking about how humans ate one diet for a million years, another diet for 10,000 years, and the current American diet for the last 50 years. Of course we're having health problems!

Keep up the good work.

Jimmy

Thanks for your kind words, Jimmy.

After reading Taubes, I read every low carb diet book and blog there is. I wanted a scientifically based approach that could be printed on one sheet of paper so I could give it to patients. There still are no books I feel completely comfortable recommending, but Barry Groves' book comes close.

"mechanically enhanced to become edible in unnatural amounts"

You have hit the key concept. Applies to fructose and seed oils especially.

Abundance has been the missing part of the equation - how a food affects our metabolism depends on its abundance and on the overall caloric abundance we live in.

Conversely, some non-historical foods like dairy may fit the EM2 better than foods that are millions of years old because abundance can change the quantity of a food to a qualitative effect, and animal fat content seems to fit a calorically abundant environment better.

I think the metabolic meaning of saturated fat, because it correlates with group hunting success, beginning perhaps half a million years ago, is that food is abundant, you can stop eating now.

[jimmygu3]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

RM,

Just FYI, I have really been enjoying reading your posts and blog. The PaNu argument makes a lot of sense, especially in the tiered approach you offer.

I have for many years avoided artificial foods, but until reading your articles I never thought of processed grains, sugar, fruit juices & seed oils as "artificial". OK, maybe not artificial, more like"naturally occurring but mechanically enhanced to become edible in unnatural amounts".

There was a guy on Bill Maher's show a few weeks ago talking about how humans ate one diet for a million years, another diet for 10,000 years, and the current American diet for the last 50 years. Of course we're having health problems!

Keep up the good work.

Jimmy

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

FATS AND OILS - LIPIDS

Lipids are fatty acids or compound molecules composed of them. A fat is solid at room temperature and oils are liquid. Lipids are the key to PaNu. It is as much our misunderstanding of lipids as our misguided attachments to grains and fructose that is wreaking havoc with our health.

Saturated fat (SFA)

Saturated fats are generally solid at room temperature. Their saturation with hydrogen atoms makes them solid at room temperature as it affects the shape of the molecules as they pack together. This same saturation means they lack a reactive double bond between carbon atoms. In future posts, I will describe how this makes them less susceptible to oxidation, and therefore less likely to promote coronary disease and other diseases.

SFA does not cause heart disease or cancer and does not make you fat. To the contrary, the hormonal satiety and lack of insulin response from eating fats is the key to weight optimization and avoiding the diseases of civilization caused by hyperinsulinemia and high blood glucose levels - diabetes, metabolic syndrome, degenerative diseases like alzheimer dementia, and many of the commonest cancers.

Think of saturated fat as “anti- fructose” – they are both completely “natural”, but in a modern food abundant environment, SFA is healthy matter and fructose is evil anti-matter. This is the subject of future posts, but it involves satiety and the metabolic meaning of availability of these two food types.

MUFAs – Monounsaturated fatty acids

A monounsaturated fat (MUFA) has a single carbon- carbon double bond. MUFAs have some unique properties in the diet. Their best known source is olive oil, but they are quite abundant in animal fats.

PUFAs – Polyunsaturated fatty acids.

These are fatty acids that have multiple reactive carbon-carbon double bonds. They occur with varying chain lengths but are generally classed by where the first double bond occurs from the end of the molecule, in the Omega 6 position or the Omega 3 position, abbreviated as O-6 and O-3. Much of the biological significance of O-6 and O3 fatty acids relates to their ratio, as they are the precursors for signaling molecules called eicosanoids that affect immune function, among other things. Excess O-6s compete for an enzyme that O-3 metabolism uses as well, and in turn this affects eicosanoid ratios in the body. Both O-6 and O-3 fatty acids are more susceptible to oxidation due to their multiple unsaturated carbon-carbon double bonds, and this also has biological significance, particularly in the process of atherosclerosis.

THE PANU METHOD APPLIED TO OILS

The evolutionary principle would suggest that once we think there might be harm from a particular artificial food, like an oil mechanically extracted from a seed or a nut, we should look for evolutionary discordance or concordance - could humans have eaten it in those amounts?

The method of PaNu is to first use modern tools and reasoning to think about what foods might not be working for us. Then, we mine the past to see if that food shows evidence of evolutionary discordance.

Grains and seed oils - corn, safflower, cotton, peanut, canola, flaxseed (linseed) all fail this test, mostly due to excess O-6 PUFA content.

Step 1: We observe evidence of harm with excess O-6 consumption when we understand the enzyme pathways of eicosanoid production, competitive inhibition of O-3 elongation by excess O-6s, and epidemiologic evidence that shows coronary disease and cancer tracking industrial oil consumption. I have not fully elaborated all these data and arguments yet, but this is where the argument begins.

Step2: Humans could not have had a metabolism dominated by huge amounts of O -6's in the paleolithic period as it would have required industrial technology that did not exist. The predominance of O-6's in our diet comes from mechanical extraction from seed oils. Absent this technology, a human could never get more than a trivial fraction of the O-6s we consume in out modern industrial diets.

Step 2 explains and strengthens our understanding of Step 1 and establishes presumptive evolutionary discordance.

Conclusion: excess seed oil consumption deviates from the EM2.

PaNu suggests we prefer SFA and MUFAs , then minimize overall PUFAs with a ratio appropriate to the EM2. A ratio of O-6:O-3 close to 2:1 is desirable, which suggests complete avoidance of mechanically extracted vegetable oils high in O-6, and if necessary, compensatory supplementation with O-3s via fish or fish oil.

It seems best to limit O-6's to less than 4% of calories - I just calculated mine at 2.75%. See Stephan's post here and some of his other posts for a good discussion of this. If you are above 4% O-6 then supplementing to get to 1% O3 likely has a benefit.

I eat sardines occasionally and I eat cod and non-farmed salmon slathered in butter once a week or so, - I haven't calculated it but I suppose I am getting plenty of 03s without cod liver oil or fish pills.

If you are still getting a lot of seed oils with high O6 levels, you may well need fish oil as a compensatory supplement.

MUFAs AND OLIVE OIL

Olive oil is a bit of a politically correct fad. It has it's origins of course in the supposed mediterranean diet - of which there are several, and of which only some had any olive oil in them. The support for olive oil was the general scheme (not supported by the evidence) that SFA is bad and MUFA and PUFAs were the alternative.

When you eat animal products and have low carbohydrate intake, you are getting huge amounts of MUFA from the animal fat - check out the MUFA content in a steak or in butter and it nearly matches the sat fat. Bone marrow is the big evolutionary source of MUFAs, not cold pressed olive oil. Of course there is some oxidation going on when you cook with olive oil that will defeat the purpose, so I eat it cold for flavor, but I get plenty of MUFA without olive oil in my animal based diet.

NUTS AND NUT OILS

How about nuts? I started out a big nut eater, thinking they were healthy and natural. I've found that they are loaded with carbs, though, and they seem to disturb my gut if I eat a lot of them, due to some lectins, no doubt. After research about fatty acids, I definitely do not view them in some therapeutic way like many seem to. Indeed, I can't think of any particular reason to eat them except to add flavor and interest to salads and other food -that is how I use them.

Nut Oils? Surely they are safer and better than grass seed oils - I use walnut oil and olive for flavor sometimes. Any advantage over butter or ghee or grass fed tallow or lard?

In my opinion, no. Too many PUFAs in nut oils to prefer them to butter and animal fats. Even if not O-6 predominant, PUFA levels in general should be kept low, and nut oils are high in PUFAs.

Eating nut oils in significant quantity depends on industrial technology not available in paleolithic times. Hence, eating bottled nut oil deviates from the EM2, even if not nearly as significantly as grass seed oils.

To summarize our PaNu hierarchy of fats and oils:

1) SFA is best because it is not oxidizable.

2) MUFA is next

3) Total PUFA should be as low as possible. O3 PUFA supplements are for people with too much O-6 PUFA from seed oils.

Animal sources, preferably grass fed or pastured, are the best way to optimize your lipid intake.

Overall, the biggies for discordance remain:

1 Cereal grains (Insulin effects, lectins, phytates, gliadin proteins)

2 Fructose as a high % of calories in a food abundant environment (Insulin effects)

3 Carbs as a high % of calories in a food abundant environment (Insulin effects)

4 High O-6 PUFA consumption (imbalanced eicosanoid production with immune dsyfunction, inflammation and cancer promotion)

5 Inadequate animal fat intake might be #5, as it is both the consequence of and much of the solution to 1-4.

My approach remains somewhat that of a finger-wagging killjoy - "don't eat that" is just not as much fun as "eat this magic pill or supplement and you'll be healthier" and I am sure that's not the way to sell the most books. It also won't help you much if you are marketing supplements or expensive drugs. If you don't already like meat, seafood, eggs, cream and butter, there is not much emotional upside to my approach. It's not really that exciting to say "Hey, guess what I don't eat!" Even if you were to wear no clothing to a social function, you simply could not be more of a social freak than to refuse bread, beer, crackers, chips, and a slice of your neighbor's kid's birthday cake, and eat your burger rolled up like a tortilla with cheddar cheese and a slice of tomato.

But, there it is. If we are not in the business of marketing or politics, we must go where the evidence leads us.

Go here for references

[BadJuju]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Would you please tell us what your typical consumption patterns are, RM?

How many carbohydrates do you consume in a given day?

What are your favorite sources of nutrients?

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I am not Roger ... but I'm partial to Carlson cod liver oil. I avoid fish oil in capsule form, as that usually goes a little rancid long before one finishes consuming it, but one doesn't notice because it's in capsules.

Vic78 and Cow:

It should be obvious by now that I simply don't believe in drugs or supplements.

If one eats properly in a manner to which we are adapted, the law of unintended consequences would dictate that introducing extra amounts of any specific substance, whether a "natural" micronutrient, a "vitamin" or a big pharma drug developed in a laboratory, is more likely to do harm than good, the same way randomly adding a part to a piece of carefully designed machinery is more likely to screw it up than improve it.

My reading of the available evidence is that supplementation only is of benefit if you are actually deficient in something. Trials of "excess" antioxidant vitamins have provided zero benefit, for example.

If you are supplementing with fish oil, it is to counteract the excess Omega 6 fatty acids in your diet.

It is far and away preferable just to not eat the excess O 6's in the standard american diet in the first place.

Don't cook with seed oils. Corn, canola (rapeseed), peanut, saffllower, cotton, margarine, even olive oil.... are all seed oils.

Don't eat processed or fried foods that contain them.

If you are eating lots of seed oils, you could not take enough fish oil to counteract the effects of the excess O 6s, so don't bother.

My advice to take the fish oil was a bit of a throwaway. It is more theoretical than proven, and I don't do it myself as I mostly eat wild game or grass-fed bison and only infrequently eat chicken or pork.

Visit Peter's blog here and read his biochemistry heavy posts for his rationale on this. He points out that the Pork and Chicken may be more of a worry than the beef regarding the fatty acid ratios, but remember that he is in the UK and beef here in the 'states is likely worse as it's more corn fed.

Peter points out that extra O 3 fatty acids may not be healthy if you have high carb consumption, but are probably good on LC and high fat diet.

It is all rather complex. Do you see my point now about randomly "improving" a presicion machine and assuming it will run better?

PaNu assumes the machine will run best on the proper fuel, not that adding a magic ingredient to the gas tank, (like STP in the 1960's) will make it run better!

Possible sources of fish oil include cod liver oil and sardines tinned in olive oil or water. I do eat a few sardines because I like them.

I take no fish oil.

I do take Vitamin D (which is not a vitamin) and think that is way more important than fish oil. I'll post more on that later, but I will be raising my recommended dose on that soon. (Gee, I sound just like EJ now, huh?)

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Hi All,

This is an awesome discussion. I think RogerMexico has done some excellent original thinking about this topic. I won't bore you with my epiphany and dietary experience since reading Gary Taub's book several years ago, but I think RogerM "connects the dots" more expilicitly and effectively. That's high praise because Taub's book was excellent. I hope RM will write a book. The societal cost of metabolic sydrome secondary to our upside-down diet must be immense. I'm still waiting for an apology from the FDA for their "food pyramid" abomination. It appears I'll have to wait a long time however. Check out this site by our government aimed at children found just today: http://www.mypyramid.gov/pyramid/grains.html

They persist in their narrative, in opposition to the results of their very own studies. Dogma is a powerful force. That's why it is good to welcome the contrarian voices here at itulip...even if we disagree with them.

One situation I have required carbs is in endurance sports. I stumbled on the practice of ketotic aerobic training quite by accident and have found it useful.....but during competition I've "bonked" if I didn't indulge in some significant carb binging. I suppose the average caveman didn't swim, bike, and run at near redline for several hours. Slow and steady catches the giraffe, but not the podium.
Cheers,
T

Thanks very much for your kind words.

You are absolutely correct about ketotic aerobic training. The benefit comes from improving your aerobic capacity by forcing your cells to use fatty acids.

This will improve your non- carb driven performance and your carb driven peformance, as the carb driven metabolism is additive to the fatty acid driven metabolism. Carbs are now your nitrous oxide booster instead of your primary fuel.

However, your carb driven performance once conditioned to fatty acids will still be enhanced over fatty acid alone!

If you are in a long endurance race and are the only one who is carb restricted, you will probably lose!

If you are a Navy Seal in Afghanistan, you might well live instead of dying if you can outperform your "competition" without any food, however.

[touhy]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Hi All,

This is an awesome discussion. I think RogerMexico has done some excellent original thinking about this topic. I won't bore you with my epiphany and dietary experience since reading Gary Taub's book several years ago, but I think RogerM "connects the dots" more expilicitly and effectively. That's high praise because Taub's book was excellent. I hope RM will write a book. The societal cost of metabolic sydrome secondary to our upside-down diet must be immense. I'm still waiting for an apology from the FDA for their "food pyramid" abomination. It appears I'll have to wait a long time however. Check out this site by our government aimed at children found just today: http://www.mypyramid.gov/pyramid/grains.html

They persist in their narrative, in opposition to the results of their very own studies. Dogma is a powerful force. That's why it is good to welcome the contrarian voices here at itulip...even if we disagree with them.

One situation I have required carbs is in endurance sports. I stumbled on the practice of ketotic aerobic training quite by accident and have found it useful.....but during competition I've "bonked" if I didn't indulge in some significant carb binging. I suppose the average caveman didn't swim, bike, and run at near redline for several hours. Slow and steady catches the giraffe, but not the podium.
Cheers,
T

[BadJuju]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

What about glucose for the brain? From what I have read, you need carbohydrates to provide energy for the brain.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Which brands [of fish oil] do you recommend?

I am not Roger ... but I'm partial to Carlson cod liver oil. I avoid fish oil in capsule form, as that usually goes a little rancid long before one finishes consuming it, but one doesn't notice because it's in capsules.