PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

We are obviously on the same page Rajiv. Eat like a rural South Asian and forget the rest of the Sturm Und Drang. I haven't had a cold in four years, but I do have Roger suggesting ominously that I am likely a borderline hyperglycemic.

70's study -- in South Asians

Incidence of diabetes

Rural South Asians 4%
Urban South Asians 12%
South Asians in the US and UK 35%

Diet very similar except more meat and dairy for South Asians in the US and UK

So what is the difference between the three cohorts?

Degree of cooking and processing of the carbohydrates and legumes!!

Think amylase and sucrase inhibitors that get denatured by cooking and processing!

[jimmygu3]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

interesting. thanks for posting. i'm curious about your insulin-level theory of aging in relation to the calorie restriction data. do you see this is as opposed to, or complementing, the sirtuin theory?

btw, the same hypoinsulinemic benefit can be attained with a very different diet, albeit with some overlaps in the recommendation, that of joel furhman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Fuhrman


i suppose we could make this an evolution-based theory by asking whether or when our distant ancestors were very good hunters, and when in the evolutionary past they were by necessity more vegetarian.

i find your discussion of insulin far more appealing scientifically than arguments based on history, i.e. what diet we evolved with. it reminds me of discussions i sometimes have with older female patients about the pros and cons of hormone supplementation.

they'll sometimes say "it's not natural," to which i reply that there is nothing natural about a menopausal woman, in 2 senses. first, most of our ancestors didn't live that long. second, evolution doesn't care about the old - there is no selection pressure to optimize or improve the health of individuals beyond the time of having and raising progeny. so, health-wise, once we've passed the age of child rearing, we're on our own; we can't appeal to arguments based on what's "natural" or what evolution did or didn't do.

First, thanks to rogermexico for posting this. Makes sense to me. I'm trying to explain to my wife and kids that humans are not "supposed to be" vegetarians. Not that you can't eat that way, just that animal protein has been a part of our diet for hundreds of thousands of years.

Second, I didn't know jk was a doctor! You hang out here a couple years you start to pick up stuff. However I would argue that post-child-rearing natural selection is possible. For example, a man may be less likely to father a child with a woman whose mother is unhealthy, concerned that she will in time be in the same condition as the mother. Healthy and attractive older people can have a positive impact on their offsprings' passing of their genes.

Jimmy

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Jimmygu3 - don't forget to recommend meat and or eggs consumption every day to your father, when he gets into his seventies. Man was born to eat plenty of meat, so it must be good for the elderly folks too, right?

First, thanks to rogermexico for posting this. Makes sense to me. I'm trying to explain to my wife and kids that humans are not "supposed to be" vegetarians. Not that you can't eat that way, just that animal protein has been a part of our diet for hundreds of thousands of years.

Second, I didn't know jk was a doctor! You hang out here a couple years you start to pick up stuff. However I would argue that post-child-rearing natural selection is possible. For example, a man may be less likely to father a child with a woman whose mother is unhealthy, concerned that she will in time be in the same condition as the mother. Healthy and attractive older people can have a positive impact on their offsprings' passing of their genes.

Jimmy

70's study -- in South Asians

Incidence of diabetes

Rural South Asians 4%
Urban South Asians 12%
South Asians in the US and UK 35%

Diet very similar except more meat and dairy for South Asians in the US and UK

So what is the difference between the three cohorts?

Degree of cooking and processing of the carbohydrates and legumes!!

Think amylase and sucrase inhibitors that get denatured by cooking and processing!

[swgprop]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Dude - forget all that complicated sounding stuff. Eat starches very sparingly, but don't turn into an absolute Calvinist about this self denial. Eat the meats you like also sparingly. Two or max three times per week (three days a week is already high). Eat tons of fresh vegetables (cruciferous are the most potent for warding the nasty illnesses) and eat modest but frequent amounts of nuts and berries and modest amounts of fruit. Drink the wine you like and drink that glass or two with a feeling of gusto for life. Get lots of exercise. Whenever you feel weakening will power to go eat something sinful, chomp down some more vegetables, steamed or raw. Find dressings for raw vegetables that tease your palate just enough so you train yourself to keep eating them. Lightly steamed is perfect too. You can have a tiny piece of meat with every meal also, so that it's gravy lacing all the vegetables tricks your palate into believing you are eating a hearty meat meal every day. I like meat, and this trick really work to tease your appetite for more vegetables. Your immune system will become a fortress, you'll lose weight, your wife or girlfriend will regard you as sexy, and you will have put the entire topic of wise nutrition to bed. End of story. IMO all these incredibly sophisticated dietary analyes are produced by doctors yearning to make their mark in publishing and establish a brand name for themselves.

Awesome. And when is your book coming out?

[thunderdownunder]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

You could look no further in argument, than the Australian Aboriginal - True stone age peoples who were hunter/gatherers (No crops, domesticated food animals, Metal implements or Alcohol of any sort. A great nation of people who relied solely on "mother nature" for life and provision. Guess what - no obesity no health issues (other than natural aging). Today, those that eat a western diet suffer diabetics and obesity at such high rates that life expectancy is 26 years lower than Australian average. Amazingly the few who maintain the old ways live without diabetics and obesity and life expectancy rises to close behind the Australian norm (that can be explained by lack of remote health care).
There is something to be said for basic unprocessed food, fresh fish, and natural meat lightly cooked and irregular fasting. I was grossly over weight with high blood pressure and related health issues which cost me a small fortune in medication. I changed my diet to one very similar the indigenous some 15 months ago (alcohol yes but in small amounts) Now 70 lbs lighter -45% reduction, 8 inches less waist, Blood pressure at 55years 117/75- 30% reduction (unheard of at that age) super low cholesterol -65% reduction. All on two meals a day most days. Fasting really is only irregular meal times as I eat only when hungry To be honest I miss Beer, pizza hut, ice cream cakes, bread, biscuits, the can opener, 11 of 13 rows in the supermarket and prescription medicines/doctors fees.
My conclusion is that it has merit based not only on the results without effort but as logic dictates it follows natural principles.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

You could look no further in argument, than the Australian Aboriginal - True stone age peoples who were hunter/gatherers (No crops, domesticated food animals, Metal implements or Alcohol of any sort. A great nation of people who relied solely on "mother nature" for life and provision. Guess what - no obesity no health issues (other than natural aging). Today, those that eat a western diet suffer diabetics and obesity at such high rates that life expectancy is 26 years lower than Australian average. Amazingly the few who maintain the old ways live without diabetics and obesity and life expectancy rises to close behind the Australian norm (that can be explained by lack of remote health care).
There is something to be said for basic unprocessed food, fresh fish, and natural meat lightly cooked and irregular fasting. I was grossly over weight with high blood pressure and related health issues which cost me a small fortune in medication. I changed my diet to one very similar the indigenous some 15 months ago (alcohol yes but in small amounts) Now 70 lbs lighter -45% reduction, 8 inches less waist, Blood pressure at 55years 117/75- 30% reduction (unheard of at that age) super low cholesterol -65% reduction. All on two meals a day most days. Fasting really is only irregular meal times as I eat only when hungry To be honest I miss Beer, pizza hut, ice cream cakes, bread, biscuits, the can opener, 11 of 13 rows in the supermarket and prescription medicines/doctors fees.
My conclusion is that it has merit based not only on the results without effort but as logic dictates it follows natural principles.

Thanks for relating that. You've got it down cold. Any diet without grains and especially without refined sugars and starches will do the heavy lifting. Glad to hear these great results.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Just got back from the chicken and Som Tom restaurant. It's in a perfect spot under a big flame tree with great breezes. The smoke from the grill wafts into the street. The sticky rice comes in small woven baskets. You don't need or get much. A plate of raw vegetables accompanies every order without you asking. (A wedge of cabbage, raw green beans, and Pak Boon, or morning glory shoots.)

A little starch, a piece of meat, some raw vegetables, a Singha beer, and a sauce to die for. It was noon and my first meal of the day.

I have been working on figuring out the dipping sauce for the chicken for a month:

Toast dried chilies in a frying pan until you're running from the kitchen in a coughing fit. Adjust a mixture of fish sauce (salty), vinegar and lime (sour), and a bit of palm sugar (sweet), add crushed mint, cilantro, and toasted red pepper.

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

All kidding aside swgprop - for this untutored observer "there is likely not that much of a book to write" on sensible eating - for losing weight and building up immune strength. Lots of fresh vegetables and modest but regular portions of meat and nutrient rich eggs do all the heavy lifting. Throw in a little fresh fruit. Radical enough for U? Eat no fresh vegetables, get sick. Eat lots of fresh vegetables packed with phytonutrients, minerals and natural vitamins, and get healthy. What is the big fuss and bother? Which special diet have you heard of which omitted these essentials?

Awesome. And when is your book coming out?

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Now that is civilized, sublime eating to this reader. I am green with envy.

Just got back from the chicken and Som Tom restaurant. It's in a perfect spot under a big flame tree with great breezes. The smoke from the grill wafts into the street. The sticky rice comes in small woven baskets. You don't need or get much. A plate of raw vegetables accompanies every order without you asking. (A wedge of cabbage, raw green beans, and Pak Boon, or morning glory shoots.)

A little starch, a piece of meat, some raw vegetables, a Singha beer, and a sauce to die for. It was noon and my first meal of the day.

I have been working on figuring out the dipping sauce for the chicken for a month:

Toast dried chilies in a frying pan until you're running from the kitchen in a coughing fit. Adjust a mixture of fish sauce (salty), vinegar and lime (sour), and a bit of palm sugar (sweet), add crushed mint, cilantro, and toasted red pepper.

[Supercilious]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Thanks for posting that rogermexico. I think this is very good.

I've been on a diet very close to your guidelines for the last 30 years, and I'm very happy with the results.
I still have dairy products, not a lot though, mostly unprocessed milk from an organic farm (I know there is a risk of TB) and home made or speciality cheeses mostly from Italy, or Bulgaria (for feta) .

I avoid high fructose fruits (still have the occasional watermelon) and I almost never have sugar. I replace it usually with honey (good honey from small producers not the kind one buys in stores and harvested last year one jar of bumblebee honey myself) and sometimes with maple syrup.

I also have a lot of mushrooms in my diet (not that kind of mushrooms ) part picked by me from the forest (and consumed fresh or pickled) part bought from the store (haven't found yet a reliable organic mushroom producer) .

Every week I have at least one day of fish (usually caught by me but when I buy it's always full wild fish not processed files or farmed fish) and one day of game (I enjoy everything from squirrels to bear). Care has to be taken when consuming fish or game. Some game and fish can have higher level of pollutants in their meat than what the agro-industrial complex normally produces (you catch a trout in the wrong stream you start glowing in the dark and indicating the ambient temperature), plus there is the parasites issue which can bring serious problems with improper handling and cooking.

Plus a lot of green salads (not only lettuce and I feel enraged when I see people treating their lawns with herbicide to get rid of the dandelion problem )

Do I have to tell you I've never had heart or cholesterol problems?

(Oh and regular quantities of Et-OH probably help too . Mostly good red wine, single malt or vodka. I avoid beer.)

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Symbols you are just eternally wierd. I think you are a hybrid stock of human derived from part Pluto-man.

I also have a lot of mushrooms in my diet ... picked by me from the forest ... I enjoy everything from squirrels to bear ... I feel enraged when I see people treating their lawns with herbicide to get rid of the dandelion problem

[*T*]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Just got back from the chicken and Som Tom restaurant. It's in a perfect spot under a big flame tree with great breezes. The smoke from the grill wafts into the street. The sticky rice comes in small woven baskets. You don't need or get much. A plate of raw vegetables accompanies every order without you asking. (A wedge of cabbage, raw green beans, and Pak Boon, or morning glory shoots.)

A little starch, a piece of meat, some raw vegetables, a Singha beer, and a sauce to die for. It was noon and my first meal of the day.

I have been working on figuring out the dipping sauce for the chicken for a month:

Toast dried chilies in a frying pan until you're running from the kitchen in a coughing fit. Adjust a mixture of fish sauce (salty), vinegar and lime (sour), and a bit of palm sugar (sweet), add crushed mint, cilantro, and toasted red pepper.

Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Just got back from the chicken and Som Tom restaurant. It's in a perfect spot under a big flame tree with great breezes. The smoke from the grill wafts into the street. The sticky rice comes in small woven baskets. You don't need or get much. A plate of raw vegetables accompanies every order without you asking. (A wedge of cabbage, raw green beans, and Pak Boon, or morning glory shoots.)

A little starch, a piece of meat, some raw vegetables, a Singha beer, and a sauce to die for. It was noon and my first meal of the day.

I have been working on figuring out the dipping sauce for the chicken for a month:

Toast dried chilies in a frying pan until you're running from the kitchen in a coughing fit. Adjust a mixture of fish sauce (salty), vinegar and lime (sour), and a bit of palm sugar (sweet), add crushed mint, cilantro, and toasted red pepper.

I love Thai food - I just eat the rice very sparingly.

The 12 step list is of necessity very simple, dogmatic, even. A book will expand the theory, provide references and add many for details and refinements.

For simplicity, I use a "nastiness gradient" for grains that goes roughly like this from worst to best

Soy (unfermented) > Wheat > Barley > Corn > Oats > Rice

Soy sauce is fine and Miso soup is only carb-laden and not dangerous grain -laden

I eat rice in small quantities and occasionally yams. Pure white, refined sugar in a cup of expresso now and then is healthier than a slice of whole wheat bread, IMO

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Thanks for posting that rogermexico. I think this is very good.

I've been on a diet very close to your guidelines for the last 30 years, and I'm very happy with the results.
I still have dairy products, not a lot though, mostly unprocessed milk from an organic farm (I know there is a risk of TB) and home made or speciality cheeses mostly from Italy, or Bulgaria (for feta) .

Following the "eat what they ate" paleo diets has the flaw of eliminating dairy, which is of course not orthodox paleo. Clinically, the best weapons you have to replace carb intake with fat in a convenient fashion (without eating brains and liver of wild game every day) are butter and milkfat (step 2) That is why my paradigm is paleolithic metabolism, not paleolithic food re-enactment!

Most who have difficulty with dairy are just sensitive to the lactose, but there can be immune system issues with milk proteins found in milk and cheeses. IMO, this is not nearly as significant on a population basis as grain lectins, but it is an issue. SO I generally view butter and whole cream as excellent and cheese as less so. That said, I love good cheeses and I do live in Wisconsin.

The MD in me needs to research the brucellosis and TB risk a little more before trying non-pasteurized milk. Since I eat more pure cream and butter, I am not sure its worth the effort. I have seen some nasty zoonotic spinal brucellosis.

I avoid high fructose fruits (still have the occasional watermelon) and I almost never have sugar. I replace it usually with honey (good honey from small producers not the kind one buys in stores and harvested last year one jar of bumblebee honey myself) and sometimes with maple syrup.

On a calorie per calorie basis, table sugar is healthier than whole wheat bread - it spikes your insulin but has no nasty grain lectins or gliadin.
Of course, HFCS that comes in an Archer-Daniels-Midland tank car is no worse for you than sucrose refined from cane or beets. It is the ubiquity of it in processed foods and "low fat" garbage at the grocery store that makes it metabolic poison. Fruit is good in proportion to how many natural antioxidants and good phytochemicals it has relative to the sucrose content.

Blackberries, blueberrys, raspberrys - I eat them with homemade whipped cream (made with whole cream not half and half) that has zero sugar in it. The best dessert you ever had.

I also have a lot of mushrooms in my diet (not that kind of mushrooms ) part picked by me from the forest (and consumed fresh or pickled) part bought from the store (haven't found yet a reliable organic mushroom producer) .

Every week I have at least one day of fish (usually caught by me but when I buy it's always full wild fish not processed files or farmed fish) and one day of game (I enjoy everything from squirrels to bear). Care has to be taken when consuming fish or game. Some game and fish can have higher level of pollutants in their meat than what the agro-industrial complex normally produces (you catch a trout in the wrong stream you start glowing in the dark and indicating the ambient temperature), plus there is the parasites issue which can bring serious problems with improper handling and cooking.

Good points all - wish I had more time to fish. Go any good squirrel or rabbit recipes?

Plus a lot of green salads (not only lettuce and I feel enraged when I see people treating their lawns with herbicide to get rid of the dandelion problem )

Asparagus, green beans, broccoli, all manner of lettuces and mushrooms are staples.

I hunt wild morels and chantarelles in season and wild asparagus in the ditches, in addition to whitetails, wild turkeys and the occasional grouse, woodcock and mourning dove (only wild quail tastes better than dove breasts sauteed in butter with a pinch of garlic)

Do I have to tell you I've never had heart or cholesterol problems?

Nope. I'm guessing your HDL is at least 60 and your fasting blood glucose around 85.

(Oh and regular quantities of Et-OH probably help too . Mostly good red wine, single malt or vodka. I avoid beer.)

How did you get on this path, if I may ask?

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Roger,

Thanks for posting this. I'm at least curious about the diet, and started reading some of the links to authors you mentioned. Interesting stuff.

One question occurs to me. The doomer in me just can't help thinking: we've been setting aside food for emergency supplies. You know the drill, just something to hold us over in case of earthquake, economic collapse, nuclear war, etc. () A large portion of the food we've set aside is rice, beans, and cereals, big no-nos, apparently, on your diet. We do, of course, have some canned meats and fish. Do you have emergency food, and, if yes, what's the make-up? If not, what would you include?

Vegetarians combine beans and rice because the amino acids complement each other. Eating high carbs is quite desirable in some circumstances - like when the alternative is starvation!

My emergency food consists mostly of frozen game that could be canned in an emergency, and beans and rice. No cereals necessary