The Crisis of College Affordability

[Sharky]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

A big part of the reason that college is so expensive is the push for the past several decades that everyone, regardless of academic achievement or aptitude is deserving of a college education. That is simply not the case; many kids have no business even setting foot on a college campus and would have been better served with vocational training in high school. The result is dumbed down standards and an inflated demand for college. Concomitant with the push to send every high school kid with a pulse to college has been the government subsidization of college cost. That’s a BIG reason why tuition has far outpaced the bogus inflation numbers. The colleges are happy to be part of this racket because they’re getting paid and expanding faculty, even into bullshit “ghetto” disciplines like the various ethnic/grievance studies departments.

EJ’s written about the coming contraction in retail. If the market for higher ed wasn’t rigged, you should see the same contraction in colleges and universities.

+1. Agree completely.

One (of many) problems is the society-wide push for "a college education," but without regard to the subject. So colleges churn out thousands of degrees in things like literature and art. While the subjects are fun and interesting, unfortunately the commercial demand for those degrees simply doesn't exist outside of academia.

What's worse, though, is that colleges have become an extension of the public school system. Universities used to be places where different points of view were encouraged. No more. Uniformity is the name of the game, "go along to get along." What the Universities don't seem to understand is that they're shooting themselves in the foot -- diminishing the value of the product they provide. A degree today is more an indication that someone has been able to follow instructions than it is an indication that they've actually learned anything useful.

Personally, as a hiring manager / entrepreneur, I'm at the point now where I would be more inclined to hire people without a college education who have been able to demonstrate the ability to think differently, to be creative, and to innovate. The people with cookie-cutter degrees are more suited to getting a government job.

[Sharky]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

take for example mathematics what do we need to teach that course?
A smart guy and a text book, which could probably be available as a pdf.
If the prof has 12 - 20 kids in his class then there is 192 - 320 k in revenue. (this does figure does not account for the 200 students in a calc 101 class) i doubt the prof is netting this cash. my friend has a phd in mathematics and he has to work at home depot to make ends meet. Also this does not take into account any monies that state is kicking in.
Where is the money going?

Since you posited a math course, I can't resist responding... Let's say an average student pays $16K/yr and takes 12 units. Then say an average professor teaches three 3 unit classes with an average of 20 students each.

So the students are paying $1.3K per unit, times 3 units per class times 3 classes times 20 students = $234K per professor. Say the prof earns $120K, plus about 75% in benefits and overhead (on the low side) = $210K. That leaves $24K for the University, campus maintenance, administration, etc. Government grants fill in the gaps.

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me....

[lakedaemonian]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

I attended an inner city Catholic School as a kid......my parents sent three kids there concurrently without going broke......doing the same today on the typical wage WHILE trying to save for college and retirement would be impossible.

I attended a extremely well funded suburban public high school.....still an excellent education....but the property tax protestors are gaining serious momentum in that school district.

I attended a local community college...it is surprisingly still very affordable and good value!

Transferred to a small state university to graduate......in the 15 years since I graduated total costs have escalated by greater than 400%

I attended Wharton's old, discontinued Evening School paid for by my employer at the time......best guess in a non apples-to-apples comparison with their newer Wharton Programs for Working Professionals I'd guess costs are up in the order of 200-250% in the last 12 years.

My wife and I are very fortunate enough to be in a position, barring a financial apocalypse the iTulip allocation model fails to account for, to fund our children's foreseeable education needs.

I can't fathom how people are paying this crazy amount of money they don't even have for an education of often very questionable value.

My children will be able to make their own choices with a lot of input from my wife and I, but they sure as sh!t are going to grasp the guaranteed financial failure associated with going $150-200k into debt for a BA offering zero tangible skills value.

If one of my children asked today what I think they should do for a career, I'd suggest learning how to be a plumber and I'll mentor them on building a small business around their skillset.

FAR too many people are making stupid education related "investments"

It equates to buying a $4k Yugo of questionable reliability for "only" $100k.

Education spending is an emotionally charged decision made all too often from the heart.

I'd like to see the lean and mean community college model offering relevant courses needed in the local community gain when and where the bloated, obsolete, and far overpriced university model implodes.

I'd love to see fat pipe broadband internet leveraged far better as well to trim much of the excessive costs and cut down on overheads while offering timely, relevant, and affordable education to light the entrepreneurial fire for the next generations.

Post-Secondany Education is in desperate need of a proper revolution.

Students need to put down the bong and the Xbox controller and find their inner protestor.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

+1. Agree completely.

One (of many) problems is the society-wide push for "a college education," but without regard to the subject. So colleges churn out thousands of degrees in things like literature and art. While the subjects are fun and interesting, unfortunately the commercial demand for those degrees simply doesn't exist outside of academia.

Couldn't agree more.....and in some locales like Saudi Arabia it potentially festers like an unseen malignant cancer.....a degree without relevancy is ultimately unaffordable to individuals and society.

What's worse, though, is that colleges have become an extension of the public school system. Universities used to be places where different points of view were encouraged. No more. Uniformity is the name of the game, "go along to get along." What the Universities don't seem to understand is that they're shooting themselves in the foot -- diminishing the value of the product they provide. A degree today is more an indication that someone has been able to follow instructions than it is an indication that they've actually learned anything useful.

Anything in life that achieves a pass by simply showing up isn't worth having.

Personally, as a hiring manager / entrepreneur, I'm at the point now where I would be more inclined to hire people without a college education who have been able to demonstrate the ability to think differently, to be creative, and to innovate. The people with cookie-cutter degrees are more suited to getting a government job.

Agreed........while I think people skills are still, and always will be, amongst the most valuable skillsets I look for.....I share your thought in selecting people who are not afraid to share an unpopular opinion in a tactful manner.

Sycophants add no value.

I'm finding that the average BA/BS degree(outside hard sciences) is the new high school degree.

[audrey_girl]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

colleges better get ready for the future:

for example:MITopencourseware

take a lookey:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

it is going to hit them like a freight train

sites like this are awesome!

[WildspitzE]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

One (of many) problems is the society-wide push for "a college education," but without regard to the subject.

Agreed.

However, the following quoted section I find a little contradictory. Perhaps I misread it given the hours I've been at work, but I think that I fundamentally agree with your point.

So colleges churn out thousands of degrees in things like literature and art. While the subjects are fun and interesting, unfortunately the commercial demand for those degrees simply doesn't exist outside of academia.

What's worse, though, is that colleges have become an extension of the public school system. Universities used to be places where different points of view were encouraged. No more. Uniformity is the name of the game, "go along to get along." What the Universities don't seem to understand is that they're shooting themselves in the foot -- diminishing the value of the product they provide. A degree today is more an indication that someone has been able to follow instructions than it is an indication that they've actually learned anything useful.

Personally, as a hiring manager / entrepreneur, I'm at the point now where I would be more inclined to hire people without a college education who have been able to demonstrate the ability to think differently, to be creative, and to innovate. The people with cookie-cutter degrees are more suited to getting a government job.

Anyway... form my perspective:

The concept of a university (or higher education) has changed. As you allude to above, based on your reference to "commercial demand", universities have simply become another piece in the assembly line to produce labor in a society that is increasingly reliant on specialization/division of labor. Nothing wrong with that, to an extent and especially in context of the increased complexity of our technologies, etc... but it does have it's drawbacks. Most of which have been elucidated throughout the thread.

My grandparent's view of a university was that of a place where one went to become a thinking person, a cultured person, and a leader. You went to college to become a "renaissance man" of sorts. In their time, most job training took place via apprenticeships (internships) -- even FIRE jobs.

Interestingly enough, my grandparent's view, which was passed on to my mom, affected the way that I went about choosing my curriculum.

While studying engineering, with the intention of never becoming an engineer btw (math came naturally, so it made sense), I found that the classes that I learned the most in -- importantly about myself, and human action -- were literature, economics, law/philosophy, and history. I found that these subjects addressed the "Whys"

... and while the complexity of our modern constructs seemingly require more specialized training to become commercially viable, the "Why" piece has not changed. The "Why" piece making all the difference, and it's what I try to learn about individuals (especially if they understand it for themselves) while interviewing them for my teams.

[medved]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

In my opinion, take it for what it is worth, skilled blue collar labor was one of the best features of the old economy America used to sport. The fact that we had a place in our system for motivated and intelligent people to work with their hands and climb the ladder was an American hallmark. Very few countries valued good, honest, skilled labor like we did in the US.

It is not exactly correct. You could say the same about all West European countries and Japan. People in Germany, France, Britain, Sweden etc. value skilled labor very much, they have centuries of the skilled labor tradition. One of the US advantages you forget about is many years of peace and prosperity. Europe was mired in two world wars and related rebuilding for a bigger part of the 20th century. In the second half of the 20th century Americans started learning some new names: Mercedes, AirBus, Philips, Nokia, Toyota etc. All these companies’ skilled labor competes with ours, and I don’t see the reason, why we should always win.

Then, the situation got more complicated. There are now millions of new skilled laborers coming to the market: China, Korea, Philippines, Mexico etc. etc. etc. . . . Obviously, their average skill level and supporting infrastructure are not exactly the same as ours, but on average it does not solve the problem.

I personally participated in a project that transferred some electronic manufacturing capacity from the US to Mexico. With all the initial glitches and problems it eventually worked. The company gladly dumped the US manufacturing facility with its entrenched (and moronic) middle management layer, and moved the production to Mexico. About 30 skilled laborers in the US lost their jobs. Who cares they use 100 people in Mexico? It is still cheaper, even with regular audits by the US supervisors and US-made custom test equipment.

Don’t you think, similar transfers can happen, e.g. between Japan and Vietnam, or between Germany and Russia? I don’t see why skilled and cheap labor in the Philippines could not produce quality product for Toyota.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

I attended a extremely well funded suburban public high school.....still an excellent education....but the property tax protestors are gaining serious momentum in that school district.

When schools face property tax protestors, the first to suffer cut backs are the ones with no voice. Children with needs. There a few, if any advocates for these children. Students with disabilities need smaller class sizes and more assistantants. These are the first to go. Not jr varsity sports, or administration staffing.

[WildspitzE]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

colleges better get ready for the future:

for example:MITopencourseware

take a lookey:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

it is going to hit them like a freight train

sites like this are awesome!

Love that site. End up revisiting subjects that I haven't put to use in a while, e.g. physics.

Next, relearning how to code. Amazing how much coding teaches you about logic and problem solving... life lessons through debugging. haha

[audrey_girl]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Love that site. End up revisiting subjects that I haven't put to use in a while, e.g. physics.

Next, relearning how to code. Amazing how much coding teaches you about logic and problem solving... life lessons through debugging. haha

yep - who needs to spend 100k anymore on a college education

;)

[karim0028]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

colleges better get ready for the future:

for example:MITopencourseware

take a lookey:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

it is going to hit them like a freight train

sites like this are awesome!

How do you guys have time to find this shit? ;) This site rocks!

[Basil]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability- Crisis for the University Industry

This will be a blessing for many students.

The University Industry in concert with the Government has created the myth that a College Education leads to a good career and wealth. Yes- this may be true if you are going into a profession that requires a College Education and advance degree to enter. But, if you plan to pursue a business or a trade do you really need to invest $100K-$200K in a college education - NO. The Money would be better spent learning a trade and buying the tools required for that trade.
With free and easy credit removed from the system Universities will be force to price their product at more competitive pricing levels. This will probably result in modernizing Universities and finding less costly ways to deliver an education.
Do you really need to go to a lecture hall to learn freshman Biology or Rocks for Jocks or intro to Chemistry? This is probably likely to reduce the numbers of tenured professors that a University needs?

One of the distressing aspects of the dramatic price increase in a college education is that tenure levels have been decreasing while the cost of an education has been increasing. This is one of the cost-cutting measures, as contract faculty tend to cost far less, especially adjuncts. This is actually quite unfortunate, as tenure is one of the cornerstones of liberal arts education. I know of many academics who made their true contributions when they were free to speak as they wished. Then again, I know of just as many who have slacked off after getting becoming full professors.

One thing that is often overlooked is that colleges and universities cannot hide from real inflation. So much of the cost increase reflects real inflation rates. Then again, much of it also reflects irresponsible management of resources. In some universities every classroom has a computer, a projector, a DVD player, etc.

Over the next few years I think that we will see some dramatic changes in higher ed. Some universities and colleges will go under, even some very major universities. Most universities will try to increase the student to teach ratio, in some cases dramatically. But there are only so many students to draw from. Many institutions will replace tenured faculty with adjunct teachers after tenured faculty retire or are forced out. Restructuring is code for trying to fire tenured faculty without a lawsuit. (If you join departments or terminate departments you can eliminate the faculty positions, depending on the state.)

Anyways, these will be hard time for academia, especially since most academics do not get the economic situation at all. I tried to discuss this with some colleagues and they did not seem interested. So I stopped.

[Slimprofits]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

How do you guys have time to find this shit? ;) This site rocks!

Finding this shit is the easy part. Finding time to study physics on the side, well not so much. That project in particular was announced in 2001 and has been online since 2007.

[snakela]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

How do you guys have time to find this shit? ;) This site rocks!

One other reason for the recession you won't see mentioned around here: americans surf too much web at work

[Basil]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Agreed.


Anyway... form my perspective:

The concept of a university (or higher education) has changed. As you allude to above, based on your reference to "commercial demand", universities have simply become another piece in the assembly line to produce labor in a society that is increasingly reliant on specialization/division of labor. Nothing wrong with that, to an extent and especially in context of the increased complexity of our technologies, etc... but it does have it's drawbacks. Most of which have been elucidated throughout the thread.

My grandparent's view of a university was that of a place where one went to become a thinking person, a cultured person, and a leader. You went to college to become a "renaissance man" of sorts. In their time, most job training took place via apprenticeships (internships) -- even FIRE jobs.

Interestingly enough, my grandparent's view, which was passed on to my mom, affected the way that I went about choosing my curriculum.

While studying engineering, with the intention of never becoming an engineer btw (math came naturally, so it made sense), I found that the classes that I learned the most in -- importantly about myself, and human action -- were literature, economics, law/philosophy, and history. I found that these subjects addressed the "Whys"

... and while the complexity of our modern constructs seemingly require more specialized training to become commercially viable, the "Why" piece has not changed. The "Why" piece making all the difference, and it's what I try to learn about individuals (especially if they understand it for themselves) while interviewing them for my teams.

Thank you for bringing this up. It seems that there has been too much liberal arts bashing in this thread. The true core of liberal arts has in fact been lost and watered down with sociology, psychology, etc. This is not to say that such fields do not have value, but they are not the liberal arts, they are social sciences. A return to the true meaning of a liberal arts education, one that trains the mind and deepens one's familiarity with 'the great conversation' would actually be of tremendous value. I do not mean a return to the trivium and the quadrivium in full, but an emphasis on training the mind to be free and helping one to contemplate the 'whys'. As it is now, we have English Lit. majors at leading universities who say 'yeah I didn't do too good on that' or such things.

If we focus upon what we consider 'practical' training for everyone, much of a higher education will lose its significance. It is true that many people many only apply 25% of what they learned in college in their professional lives, but many people also discover that they want to do something completely different with their lives. I have had several friends that completely changed course once they were exposed to another area in college and I am sure that many here could say the same.