Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-up

[Guest]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

They are all freedom fighters Steve. You got to get with the program here. What the Taliban and Hezbollah and whatnot are really yearning to do is go back to their bucolic and agrarian old ways. When the US goes home, they will hammer their guns and car bombs into agricultural ploughshares and become happy farmers tilling the peaceful land. Or was it hammering the sam missiles and kalashnikovs into tractors? I forget. You just watch. How are you going to find out, unless you give it a try? ;)

So you would take your chances and roll the dice? In other words, you would wish that America might be graceful now and exit the world stage; and you would let the dice be tossed with world history at stake?

So toss the dice with the Islamo-fascists, Hamas, Hesbollah, the Taliban, Al Qaide, the Iranian regime, the Somali pirates, Hugo Chavez, and all the rest of the bunch?

[rjwjr]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

They are far too sophisticated to deal with the simple solutions.

I think medved is spot on with this comment. Of course, I am a bit simplistic myself so the simple solutions appeal to me.

Extremely enlightening thread and the opinions and perspectives are truly fascinating. I have never been directly exposed to any anti-American sentiment before. Of course, I read about it, know that it exists, but always have assumed that it came mostly from extremists, religious fundamentalists, and the occasional crazy, a la Chavez or Kim Jong Il. I never would have guessed that my first direct exposure would come from individuals that I generally respect and deem quite intelligent. Obviously, I am more naive than I realized.

As an American, I am sorry that some of you harbor anti-American sentiment. Our political leaders have obviously done a poor job in many respects, and we are as frustrated by that as is anyone. Please recognize that the vast majority of Americans still believe in admirable core values, including freedom, personal responsibility, justice, the rule of law, and equal opportunity.

Although not perfect, I think we are the people best suited to be the arbiters of world conflicts, because as a general rule, we don't care to expand the empire, take your lands, and steal your wealth. History reflects that we are slow to go to war, more often being criticized for our lack of immediate reaction and involvement. We don't have a political or religious bias that we are trying to force on the rest of the world, but we do have a system of government and free-market economic priciples that could be maximized with like-minded allies. All-in-all, we are some of the more historically passive and fair world-police that you could hope to have.

For what it's worth, I'd also like to state that we Americans value the loyal, allied friendships of England, Canada, Australia, and the like, and I for one, would sacrifice to protect those Countries like they were American soil. Further, I have met some incredible Cuban, Venezuelan, and especially Iranian people and believe that there is a huge disconnect between their leaders and the core beliefs of the people. I firmly believe that what have come to be known as "Western values" (sometimes stated with negative connotations) are, in reality, the values of free individuals and would be shared naturally by the people of Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and other oppressive governments if their leaders were to lose their power.

So, as it relates to the original post, America maintains it's military funding and superiority NOT so we can expand our empire and force our ideals on an unwilling world. We MUST maintain military superiority for our own safety and security as one of the wealthiest peoples, living on some of the richest lands, teaming with virtually every valuable natural resource needed for man's current existence. The bottom line, if idiots would quit f%^$#*ng with us, we wouldn't f&^%k with them. Yes, we have military might, but would you rather it be Kim Jong Il or Hugo Chavez or another modern day Adolph Hitler with that might?

Maybe this economic crisis will serve to weaken the power of the current FIRE establishment, providing the opportunity for better leaders in government, resulting in less anti-American sentiment and more global stability.

[Guest]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

rjwjr -

When I first came to iTulip my views were almost a carbon copy of what you state here. I must confess that over the past couple of years my view of America's involvement with the rest of the world has however acquired quite a lot more of a cynical overlay. Let's just say I was 'convinced" that our involvment in many countries iin the past few decades has morphed quite notably away from being in most significant part the "policeman" and a good deal more towards maintaining preferential US geostrategic access. I also grant it's possible it's activities have been all about preferential strategic access right from the get-go.

But I do believe regardless that a good part of what you say still remains true. On a comparative basis, the US form of hegemony is a great deal less onerous upon independent nations than the Overt Occupation model, and that is what Medved has been trying to impress upon people. Medved is saying "you think you know the difference, but you don't really know the difference, unless you have lived it".

In plain, unvarnished terms, I think he is right. All respect to C1ue whom I admire for his very sharp acuity, but I think Medved's right on that point. There is not remotely any similarity between financial colonisation and overt colonisation.

I know a lot of readers here are more in tune with C1ue's perspective, but I think this viewpoint is the product of many decades of not having inspected the alternative, close up and personal. Overt occupation is a very ugly creature indeed, and is a quantum jump ahead of financial exploitation. People who feel a high level of self assurance that they "know the difference" are being told "no, you don't know the difference".

Still, reading iTulip's many commentators for two years has really made me move away from the description you provide, which is just a little too flattering of the US now for my viewpoint. But I know which side I am on - and I am most definitely not on the side that is keen to "roll the dice" for something better. I don't believe in the "innate goodness" of any people. I think that entropy in geopolitical matters can just as easily lead to states of tyranny.

This is why I believe that the world view of some of our readers who believe that nations exercising hegemony is a "universal evil" is actually a quite naive read of history. Historically, the interplay of many intermediate nations where none have actual preeminence has very often produced horrific conflicts.

I think medved is spot on with this comment. Of course, I am a bit simplistic myself so the simple solutions appeal to me.

Extremely enlightening thread and the opinions and perspectives are truly fascinating. I have never been directly exposed to any anti-American sentiment before. Of course, I read about it, know that it exists, but always have assumed that it came mostly from extremists, religious fundamentalists, and the occasional crazy, a la Chavez or Kim Jong Il. I never would have guessed that my first direct exposure would come from individuals that I generally respect and deem quite intelligent. Obviously, I am more naive than I realized.

As an American, I am sorry that some of you harbor anti-American sentiment. Our political leaders have obviously done a poor job in many respects, and we are as frustrated by that as is anyone. Please recognize that the vast majority of Americans still believe in admirable core values, including freedom, personal responsibility, justice, the rule of law, and equal opportunity.

Although not perfect, I think we are the people best suited to be the arbiters of world conflicts, because as a general rule, we don't care to expand the empire, take your lands, and steal your wealth. History reflects that we are slow to go to war, more often being criticized for our lack of immediate reaction and involvement. We don't have a political or religious bias that we are trying to force on the rest of the world, but we do have a system of government and free-market economic priciples that could be maximized with like-minded allies. All-in-all, we are some of the more historically passive and fair world-police that you could hope to have.

For what it's worth, I'd also like to state that we Americans value the loyal, allied friendships of England, Canada, Australia, and the like, and I for one, would sacrifice to protect those Countries like they were American soil. Further, I have met some incredible Cuban, Venezuelan, and especially Iranian people and believe that there is a huge disconnect between their leaders and the core beliefs of the people. I firmly believe that what have come to be known as "Western values" (sometimes stated with negative connotations) are, in reality, the values of free individuals and would be shared naturally by the people of Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and other oppressive governments if their leaders were to lose their power.

So, as it relates to the original post, America maintains it's military funding and superiority NOT so we can expand our empire and force our ideals on an unwilling world. We MUST maintain military superiority for our own safety and security as one of the wealthiest peoples, living on some of the richest lands, teaming with virtually every valuable natural resource needed for man's current existence. The bottom line, if idiots would quit f%^$#*ng with us, we wouldn't f&^%k with them. Yes, we have military might, but would you rather it be Kim Jong Il or Hugo Chavez or another modern day Adolph Hitler with that might?

Maybe this economic crisis will serve to weaken the power of the current FIRE establishment, providing the opportunity for better leaders in government, resulting in less anti-American sentiment and more global stability.

[mcgurme]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

So, I call this revisionist history because it is based upon spin rather than considerable evidence and rigor. This is history, therefore, for pot-heads because pot-heads believe anything they want to believe; whatever the spin de jour is, that is what the pot-heads believe. Pot-heads do not check anything for validity because checking takes effort and rigor--- not to mention sobriety.

And what evidence do you have that Fomenko is a "pot-head"?

His ideas may or may not be bogus, but calling him a pot-head as your main argument against him, with no presented evidence, doesn't exactly give you credibility on the matter.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

And what evidence do you have that Fomenko is a "pot-head"?

His ideas may or may not be bogus, but calling him a pot-head as your main argument against him, with no presented evidence, doesn't exactly give you credibility on the matter.

I did not say Fomenko (sp?) was a pot-head. I would suggest that Fomenko wrote a book for the purpose of selling. The market will buy anything, especially the book market to-day.

The ones who would believe Fomenko are the pot-heads, especially the bunch who live around me here on the West Coast. That is all that I am saying.... The pot-heads here in British Columbia will buy Fomenko's new book, and Fomenko will profit just like Al Gore did when he published his new book on the junk science of global warming.

[rjwjr]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

In plain, unvarnished terms, I think he is right. All respect to C1ue whom I admire for his very sharp acuity, but I think Medved's right on that point. There is not remotely any similarity between financial colonisation and overt colonisation.

Lukester,

Thank you for your sober, respectful reply. I feel we are on the same page, albeit mine with a tad more naive patriotic zeal.

As for the quote above, how do those that believe that financial colinisation is no different than overt occupation reconcile in the argument the implied inherent evilness of this U.S. financial colinisation with the inherent good created by our Country's willingness, assistance, and encouragement to have the individual succeed, whether native-born, immigrant, or foreign? In a sense, it's like the typical teen who rebels against his/her parent's rule.

I just don't get the big, bad America argument and I'm still not convinced that there is any better system (any better "parents") under which an individual could hope to live.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

So you would take your chances and roll the dice? In other words, you would wish that America might be graceful now and exit the world stage; and you would let the dice be tossed with world history at stake?

So toss the dice with the Islamo-fascists, Hamas, Hesbollah, the Taliban, Al Qaide, the Iranian regime, the Somali pirates, Hugo Chavez, and all the rest of the bunch?

Um, because unlike what the Rove du jour talking head says, there are choices beyond the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc.

How much of Al Qaeda is because of US support of the Saudi regime?

How much of Hamas is due to explicit US support of Israel?

Why does anti-US sentiment resonate with anyone in the Central/South American nations? Monroe Doctrine perhaps?

How much of this hatred would reorient toward other goals or disappear should the heavy hand of Uncle Sam exit the stage?

For that matter, why didn't the US finish the job when Marines were in Mogadishu? Or stop the Japanese from scouring the fish away from the Somali coast so that the Somali fisherman felt there was no other way to make a living?

Unlike some, I don't see the world as being a place needing a policeman - especially some self righteous and self serving one.

The nations of the world will work their mutual relations out as they always have in the millenia before the United States.

Am I anti-American? Some might say so. But I'm merely against the national policies we have now.

America as a country and Americans as people are fine.

America as a meddlesome center of the world, is not.

As for rjrwr and his Mom and Apple Pie - well - I thought for sure there would be a smiley at the end of that.

America has been fortunate to have a country that needs people. As a very low density nation, it is not at all unusual to desire the world's huddled masses to provide the labor needed for industrialization.

But that equation is gone.

For now, the more educated masses are needed. But how is this different than Russia inviting Germans and Italians in during the time of Peter the Great? They were valued when times were good; when times got bad they were booted.

Time will tell if "its different this time" in this country.

[rjwjr]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

As for rjrwr and his Mom and Apple Pie - well - I thought for sure there would be a smiley at the end of that.

Uh, no smiley needed or called for. It is a legitimate and real stance, shared by tens of millions of Americans, in spite of regular belittlement by scores of elitists whose education has surpassed their intelligence.

America has been fortunate to have a country that needs people. As a very low density nation, it is not at all unusual to desire the world's huddled masses to provide the labor needed for industrialization.

Your cynicism is awe-inspiring. The success of our free-market economy and resulting consumption society provides jobs to those that are willing and interested in a fair trade of their efforts for an opportunity to improve their lives. I take offense at your attempt to belittle the American dream that has benefitted so many, including willing immigrants. Forced immigration into slavery ended long ago. You should visit the new U.S. and you should know that all who come, come willingly. Reconcile that real-world fact with your wishful theory of a demon-America.

On a light-hearted note, we know your exact location and we have smart bombs, so cut the anti-America crap before you really piss us off.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

Uh, no smiley needed or called for. It is a legitimate and real stance, shared by tens of millions of Americans, in spite of regular belittlement by scores of elitists whose education has surpassed their intelligence.

Yep, I'm an elitist. Don't you see me calling for the enshrinement of such American icons as Bill Gates?

As for the legitimate and real - absolutely agree. Millions of Americans still do believe lots of funny things like creationism.

It isn't the stance that's amusing, it is the relative lack of knowledge of history and real events.

Your cynicism is awe-inspiring. The success of our free-market economy and resulting consumption society provides jobs to those that are willing and interested in a fair trade of their efforts for an opportunity to improve their lives. I take offense at your attempt to belittle the American dream that has benefitted so many, including willing immigrants. Forced immigration into slavery ended long ago. You should visit the new U.S. and you should know that all who come, come willingly. Reconcile that real-world fact with your wishful theory of a demon-America.

On a light-hearted note, we know your exact location and we have smart bombs, so cut the anti-America crap before you really piss us off.

Fortunately I don't live in a village near the Pakistan border. It seems that being a Taliban is much safer than being a child living in the vicinity (100 miles) of a real Taliban.

And of course, the normal American response to criticism: let's bomb them! Too unpopular to place too many fat American a**es on the ground and too hard to actually learn something different.

As for my cynicism - actually it is eyes open realism.

Clearly you have not tried hard to delve beneath the layers of deception imposed via the US media.

Try reading something like Dr. Michael Hudson's "Super Imperialism - the Economic Strategy of American Empire". Then research just a few of the public policies and government papers which are referenced to see whether what Dr. Hudson says is real.

If you still hold to your vision, then maybe it is right.

Until then I reserve my right to call you or anyone else on your ignorance.

[VIT]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

Although not perfect, I think we are the people best suited to be the arbiters of world conflicts, because as a general rule, we don't care to expand the empire, take your lands, and steal your wealth. History reflects that we are slow to go to war, more often being criticized for our lack of immediate reaction and involvement. We don't have a political or religious bias that we are trying to force on the rest of the world, but we do have a system of government and free-market economic priciples that could be maximized with like-minded allies. All-in-all, we are some of the more historically passive and fair world-police that you could hope to have.

I could not resist to make a reply. Try to get the facts on the following:
- Which country has most military bases outside of the borders
- Who took all the land from people of entire continent
- "In God we trust" , hmm, where I saw this...
- "Steal the wealth" - countless list you can make if desire so
Now try to relate that with what your wrote before

I dont say America is bad or good, it is all gradational. But saying this is the best system in almost every aspect makes me laughing, especialy fair world-police "hope to have". There is an "ego" and "alter-ego", dont mix them up trying to present second as first.

[rjwjr]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

Yep, I'm an elitist. Don't you see me calling for the enshrinement of such American icons as Bill Gates?

As for the legitimate and real - absolutely agree. Millions of Americans still do believe lots of funny things like creationism.

It isn't the stance that's amusing, it is the relative lack of knowledge of history and real events.



Fortunately I don't live in a village near the Pakistan border. It seems that being a Taliban is much safer than being a child living in the vicinity (100 miles) of a real Taliban.

And of course, the normal American response to criticism: let's bomb them! Too unpopular to place too many fat American a**es on the ground and too hard to actually learn something different.

As for my cynicism - actually it is eyes open realism.

Clearly you have not tried hard to delve beneath the layers of deception imposed via the US media.

Try reading something like Dr. Michael Hudson's "Super Imperialism - the Economic Strategy of American Empire". Then research just a few of the public policies and government papers which are referenced to see whether what Dr. Hudson says is real.

If you still hold to your vision, then maybe it is right.

Until then I reserve my right to call you or anyone else on your ignorance.

In this one reply you have attempted to further your argument by assuming I believe in creationism (I don't), using the term fat ass Americans, calling us out for being too lazy to "actually learn something different", using my joke about smart-bombing like it was a serious argument, calling me ignorant, then referencing as your resident expert (Hudson) a guy who was the chief economic advisor for Dennis Kucinich.

I'm not sure you did your argument any favors, although you did expose a serious bigotry and a surprising liberal use of descriptive, shallow cliches to describe the typical American. Knowing now your true colors and preconceived notions, I prefer to choose to agree to disagree with you rather than take the argument any further.

I don't wish you any ill will, I just don't think your assumptions are accurate.

[vanvaley1]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

I'll worry bout the states when I see the Taliban and Chavez come sailing up Uvas Creek in battleships. We all know that every country, the US included, can't protected itself from a nuke, a bio, or an assorted nuts attack. We've got borders and ports that leak by sieves.

A nuke sub off the coast could atomize me before I could get out my lanterns and ride down the Internet crying, "The nukes are coming. The nukes are coming." The only thing we can do it strike back in a most horrendous manner...which...I believe we would if somebody is dumb enough to launch an attack with those weapons. Not expecting an invasion from Canada or Mexico. The East and West shores won't see one either. Be like shootin' fish in the barrel if anybody could manage to gather and fund a fleet of dingys to invade Coney Island or our west coast Disneyland.

Big threat is from within. Toynbee laid it out a long time ago when he published a small book that identified how a dozen or so empires collapsed. Only one was overpowered by a physical invasion. The rest collapsed from within. Don't ask me to identify the book as I'm old and my memory works like a clock that's run out its batteries and I think I gave the book away with 15 other boxes of books when we getting ready to move.

Our parasites are within. Ain't a problem spottin' em. We talk about em all day long on this site. The question is, "Do we have the wherewithal and will to reverse this distribution of wealth and power from its present place to a lesser and perhaps hotter one?"

[rjwjr]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

I could not resist to make a reply. Try to get the facts on the following:
- Which country has most military bases outside of the borders
- Who took all the land from people of entire continent
- "In God we trust" , hmm, where I saw this...
- "Steal the wealth" - countless list you can make if desire so
Now try to relate that with what your wrote before

I dont say America is bad or good, it is all gradational. But saying this is the best system in almost every aspect makes me laughing, especialy fair world-police "hope to have". There is an "ego" and "alter-ego", dont mix them up trying to present second as first.

Okay, I will try to "relate that with what you wrote before".

Point 1: Most military bases outside the borders. I don't know, but am willing to agree that it is the U.S. As such, we could plausibly conquer the world right now if we so wished. That is not our wish. We have a presence as a deterrence to aggression, not as an act of aggression.

Point 2: Stole our land from the Native Americans. Truthfully, this occured so long ago and in such a different era that it's not really relevent to today's America any more than is slavery or women not having the right to vote. From one perspective, those weren't "Americans" that stole the land, they were western Europeans so the argument gets convoluted to blame "Americans", and not all lands were stolen, some were bought. Our history isn't perfect, it has evolved and we have righted many wrongs along the way, but your core statment isn't really relative today.

Point 3: In God we trust. I didn't say that America wasn't founded on religious beliefs or that we don't have a large number of God-fearing citizens. I specifically said that we are NOT trying to forcibly export our religious views on the rest of the world. Personally, I don't understand the anti-religious sentiment. I am an atheist, but I certainly don't have a beef with a huge segment of the population that follow a Christian doctrine or any other non-violent religious credo. These are good people at heart and contributing members of society in general. What the F%$&k is so bad about that?

Point 4: Steal the wealth. I share a concern here, especially of recent events, but it is not the way that the typical American citizen chooses to be viewed. It is not the reputation we want. We simply can't seem to elect political leadership that has a backbone and a good moral compass. Trust me, we want to be responsible world citizens and to take our current position as a "super power" seriously. Maybe the global economic chaos will cause good people to run for public office so we can elect some truly representative, benevolent, fair, and capable leadership.

I stand by my opinion that America is a great country and doesn't deserve near the amount of anti-American sentiment that exists. There are many other great countries and great people, just none that are in the economic or military position to play the role that the U.S. plays. My pro-America stance is not mutually exclusive to my pro-Great Britain, pro-Canada, pro-New Zealand, pro-Japan, pro-Israel, pro-Australia, pro-Norway, pro-modern day Germany stance. I don't hate the Iranian people because of their current fundamentalist government any more than I won't buy Chinese products because of their current communist regime. As such, I don't understand the "hate-Americans" sentiment. Don't confuse the actions of a few with the true feelings of a few hundred million. If we could get beyond the government interference and ingrained sterotypes, I'm confident we'd find more similarities and shared beliefs than we would differences. People is people, regardless of language or dress.

[Guest]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

This would be a great time to get Rajiv's comments in this area. ;) Or Spartacus, or Sapiens, (add in C1ue here), or Babbittd's, or We_are_toast, or Don's, or WorldTraveler's, or Thailandnotes', or Fred's, or Bill's, or Bart's, or Necron99's, or Starving Steve's (steve is all over the map on issues), or Jeff's, or JK's, or Jtabeb (and he's active US Air Force!) or Mfyahya's, or Kartius919, or Digidiver, or Jim Nickerson's, or Metalman's (withering debunks of the US offered 24/7 there), or GRG55's, or Basil's, or Mega's, or WDCRob's, or Chris Coles, or $#* (batten down the hatches for a rain of flying rotten vegetables here), or Olduvai, or Outback, or Chris, or Xela, or Vit (add Medved and Idianov here), probably also Finster - and tons more. All of these guys (you can add EJ to this group most certainly) could chime in here and point out that a proper appraisal of the US's track record (across the past 30 years at any rate) might benefit from a little more jaundice in the perspective and a shade less idealism. But I think a good number of these people would express great appreciation of the US also, on the flip side. It's a "mixed bag", but with plenty of realism. I'm one of the milder, more patriotic ones. ;)

BTW I reserve the right to fish up a good number of other "jaundiced" observers of America's role in the world and add them to this list.

Itulip is a "big disappointment" that way - you come in here full of ideals and notions about a shining city on the hill, and by the time these guys have finished working you over, your most cherished notions have begun to get a distinctly jaundiced tinge.

The Russians and eastern Europeans are interesting contributors, because of the singular experience they bring to this question. On the one hand they are among the first to recognize the valuable things in the American system, and on the other, the most cynical also. Their perspective is IMO one of the ones most planted "on the ground", as they make the final balance and will mention both the good things and bad things about the US with a very fine appreciation of this mix. At the moment, the mix is tilting rather badly towards unscrupulous actor. That's what happens to any nation when it is backed against the wall, and the US is no exception. I only remain partisan to the status quo because I am extremely cynical about what will come in to replace it (worse).

America has most definitely been a great country, and it has a very high chance of becoming one again. At the moment, it is looking distinctly mangy and motheaten, both in material and in ethical terms. Stick around here a while rjwjr and read around in the archives widely, and I think your view will be to some extent affected by what you read here over time. My $0.2 Cents. Respectfully.

[vanvaley1]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

This would be a great time to get Rajiv's comments in this area. ;) Or Spartacus, or Sapiens, (add in C1ue here), or Babbittd's, or We_are_toast, or Don's, or WorldTraveler's, or Thailandnotes', or Fred's, or Bill's, or Bart's, or Necron99's, or Starving Steve's (steve is all over the map on issues), or Jeff's, or Mfyahya's, or Jim Nickerson's, or Metalman's (prepare for withering debunk from that quarter), or Chris Coles, or $#* (batten down the hatches for a rain of flying rotten vegetables here), or Olduvai, or Outback, or Vit, probably also Finster - and tons more. All of these guys (you can add EJ to this group most certainly) could chime in here and point out that a proper appraisal of the US's track record across the past 40 years might benefit from a little more jaundice in the perspective and a shade less idealism.

BTW I reserve the right to fish up a good number of other "jaundiced" observers of America's role in the world and add them to this list.

Itulip is a "big disappointment" that way - you come in here full of ideals and notions about a shining city on the hill, and by the time these guys have finished working you over, your most cherished notions have begun to get a distinctly jaundiced tinge.

The Russians and eastern Europeans are interesting contributors, because of the singular experience they bring to this question. On the one hand they are among the first to recognize the valuable things in the American system, and on the other, the most cynical also. Their perspective is IMO one of the ones most planted "on the ground", as they make the final balance and will mention both the good things and bad things about the US with a very fine appreciation of this mix. At the moment, the mix is tilting rather badly towards unscrupulous actor. That's what happens to any nation when it is backed against the wall, and the US is no exception. I only remain partisan to the status quo because I am extremely cynical about what will come in to replace it (worse).

America has most definitely been a great country, and it has a very high chance of becoming one again. At the moment, it is looking distinctly mangy and motheaten, both in material and in ethical terms. Stick around here a while rjwjr and read around in the archives widely, and I think your view will be to some extent affected by what you read here over time. My $0.2 Cents. Respectfully.

Nothing wrong with the ideals and aspirations of the country. The executions have been screwed up. That happens when folks that should know better don't execute the laws the way they were intended to work. Leads to all sorts of confusion and lack of focus for us folks. And, by and large, the country is full of good folks. Time to do some nesting at home. We've laid enough eggs overseas in the past 40 years...to parapharse a famous quote "Wall Street Lays an Egg".