U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

[metalman]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Carjacked............he got away with it, went on to rape and is now doing 20 for his part in a killing.........want to let him out?
Mike

that sucks. sorry to hear it. didn't your pols take away your guns there in the uk? don't have so many car jackings here.. car jackers don't like the odds... driver might have a gun. i'm no fan of guns but i'm no fan of stacking the odds in favor of criminals either.

[c1ue]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

our prisons are full of poor people. if you're rich you can smoke $100 bag dope in front of a police station. if you're poor and get caught with a rock you're in prison no questions asked. justice is for sale in the usa, like everything else.

MM,

You're forgetting OJ - proof positive you can buy your way out of anything.

I think the only reason Lay and Ebbers were caught is that ultimately they neither forfeit the majority of what they stole nor is white collar prison all that bad.

Look at Milken...

As for prisons and conflicts of government interests - check out http://dunwalke.com/introduction.htm

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

MM,

You're forgetting OJ - proof positive you can buy your way out of anything.

I think the only reason Lay and Ebbers were caught is that ultimately they neither forfeit the majority of what they stole nor is white collar prison all that bad.

Look at Milken...

As for prisons and conflicts of government interests - check out http://dunwalke.com/introduction.htm

Yes, one can get a lot more prison time for stealing a whole lot less, and perhaps needing it a whole lot more than Lay, Ebbers, or Milken ever needed to consider stealing a dime. Punishment should also be based on amounts stolen and thievery is thievery so all the bastards should be put into the general prison population with the "blue collar" criminals.

[jimmygu3]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

that sucks. sorry to hear it. didn't your pols take away your guns there in the uk? don't have so many car jackings here.. car jackers don't like the odds... driver might have a gun. i'm no fan of guns but i'm no fan of stacking the odds in favor of criminals either.

Hmmm. Carjacking more common in UK than US? Didn't sound right to me, so I did some digging.

UK doesn't keep stats on carjacking in particular, but this BBC article indicates that there were 90 in 2002 London. That amounts to a rate of .69 per 100,000.

The US as a whole has approximately 38,000 carjackings per year which comes to a rate of 12.67 per 100,000. That's 18 times the London rate.

I forgot to mention this issue on the Libertarian thread: gun control. For someone who seems to call it like you see it, you're way off on this one, Metalman. This chart of gun deaths per 100,000 vs. household gun ownership shows there is a clear linear relationship between the two. And guess who leads the civilized world in both?

[Guest]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

The Swiss statistic seems like an anomaly, but the datum is misleading. Switzerland has a 'standing citizen army' policy that's unique in Europe and probably the world. Many of the army ready reserve are required to keep a military issue firearm as part of their immediate availability to go on duty.

Seems the Swiss are so law abiding that this is a 'non-issue' in terms of affecting the civil peace. I seem to recall having read this. Or perhaps Christoph Von Gamm can correct me, but I believe at least that this used to be a traditional Swiss national policy for many decades.

Remove that Swiss federal govt. policy and doubtless Switzerland would chart as one of the least violent countries out of the entire lot. Of course when they get pissed off, the Swiss historically made formidable fighters (they were highly successful mercenaries for centuries! ) - especially in their mountain terrain. Good luck to any army trying to coerce them.

The best cure for the high rate of crime and weapon deaths in the US would be a sound economic policy - and I agree with Rajiv - take away the TV set and the kids would grow up with a lot healthier a psychological profile.

[jimmygu3]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

The Swiss statistic seems like an anomaly, but the datum is misleading. Switzerland has a 'standing citizen army' policy that's unique in Europe and probably the world. Many of the army ready reserve are required to keep a military issue firearm as part of their immediate availability to go on duty.

Seems the Swiss are so law abiding that this is a 'non-issue' in terms of affecting the civil peace. I seem to recall having read this. Or perhaps Christoph Von Gamm can correct me, but I believe at least that this used to be a traditional Swiss national policy for many decades.

Remove that Swiss federal govt. policy and doubtless Switzerland would chart as one of the least violent countries out of the entire lot. Of course when they get pissed off, the Swiss historically made formidable fighters (they were highly successful mercenaries for centuries! ) - especially in their mountain terrain. Good luck to any army trying to coerce them.

The best cure for the high rate of crime and weapon deaths in the US would be a sound economic policy - and I agree with Rajiv - take away the TV set and the kids would grow up with a lot healthier a psychological profile.

Sorry for overlooking Switzerland's higher gun ownership rate. My inclination is that the reason Switzerland's gun death rate is so much lower than the US is because the Swiss have stronger laws governing gun permits, purchasing and carrying. Common-sense stuff that is routinely rejected in the US by the NRA, mischaracterized as anti-2nd amendment, 'the liberals wanna take away your hunting rifle', etc.

There's a big billboard for a gun show near my house soon. They call it a "family event" on their website. Don't think I'll be bringing the kids to that one myself. While you are welcome to purchase as many guns as you want with no background checks, waiting period or licensing required, the show does have some rules. For example, the display and sale of Nazi paraphenalia is limited to "guns, swords and daggers".

[Nicolasd]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Around here , general crime rates are going down (good) but violent crimes rate are going up (bad),increases mostly derived from street gangs.

Politicians wannabes and the Po-lice are trying to take credit for the general crime rate going down while in reality , it is plain old aging population at work ( criminal tends to tame over time)

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Not infrequently I watch part of Shepherd Smith on Fox news while I eat dinner. Tonight they reported on the report that began this thread. While watching what struck me as a negative story about the US having so many people in prisons, it occurred to me: How many would there be in our prisons if all the people who committed crimes requiring imprisionment were actually apprehended, tried and convicted? I expect it would add a third more at least even if you let out those that anyone considers the minor offenders.

If crime is bad here now, just wait until and if we have a serious recession, and heaven forbid a depression. I think a whole lot of this gets back to a society that seems to me to less and less educated. The less education one has the more hopeless it is in the US when you up to now can look around and see so many people that "appear" to have so much stuff. I expect the lesser educated have harder times getting credit too.

Rajiv put up a thread

The Century of Self

which contains a quote from a Wall Street banker: "We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...] Man's desires must overshadow his needs."

So take a population where educational levels are decreasing and throw in a bit of brainwashing that results in a society of wants vs. needs, and expensive drug habits, and neither the amount of crime nor the numbers in prisons surprises me.

[Rajiv]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Good interview with Sudhir Venkatesh, Sociologist from Columbia -

Gang Leader for a Day: A Rogue Sociologist Takes to the Streets
Cities across the US like Austin, Texas; Seattle, Washington; San Bernadino, California, and Baltimore, Maryland, are grappling with the problems of gang violence. The problem is no longer new. But neither are most solutions being proposed by law enforcement to tackle the issue. A stark marker of urban blight and unemployment, gangs are still plaguing the mostly poor communities of America. A young sociology professor at Colombia University has recently written a book that examines gang life from the inside. Sudhir Venkatesh’s best-selling memoirs of being a student researcher in Chicago’s projects, provides a nuanced insight into the intricacies of gangs. His book is called Gang Leader for a Day: A Rogue Sociologist Takes to the Streets.

In Gang Leader for a Day, Venkatesh challenges stereotypes of gang members and the communities in which they function.

[MEDIA]http://media.libsyn.com/media/uprising/uprising_2008-02-29.mp3[/MEDIA]

[c1ue]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Politicians wannabes and the Po-lice are trying to take credit for the general crime rate going down while in reality , it is plain old aging population at work ( criminal tends to tame over time)

Don't forget that the crime rate also goes down when economic times are good.

As we slide into the flip side, time will tell just how effective various 'successful' policies really were.

After all, in the Bay Area, it paid much better to be a programmer in Y2K than a drug dealer, and the credentials weren't much different.

After that, it was loan officer/construction.

[EJ]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

Don't forget that the crime rate also goes down when economic times are good.

As we slide into the flip side, time will tell just how effective various 'successful' policies really were.

After all, in the Bay Area, it paid much better to be a programmer in Y2K than a drug dealer, and the credentials weren't much different.

After that, it was loan officer/construction.

Next: Green Collar Worker.

A friend who's partner at a $2B VC firm out on the west coast told me Friday that the quality of the management teams of green tech companies he's seen who are looking to raise money is generally awful owning to the fact that 20 years of falling energy prices did little to inspire students to enter the field. GRG has pointed as well to the massive shortages of trained specialists in the energy industry, either petrochemical or alternative. Most of the teams they are seeing are high tech retreads and, yes, some are coming off a two or three year stint in real estate.

[Rajiv]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

See also Prisons vs. Colleges

For years now, educators have been warning that U.S. society might soon be spending more on prisons than colleges. In five states, that moment has arrived, according to a report released Thursday by the Pew Charitable Trusts.

Those states are (in order of spending the most proportionally on prisons in 2007): Vermont, Michigan, Oregon, Connecticut and Delaware. The state spending the least on prisons relative to higher education was Minnesota, where for every dollar spent on higher education only 17 cents was spent on corrections. The average for all states was 60 cents, nearly double the 32 cents spent 20 years earlier. Only three states saw gains in spending on higher education, relative to corrections: Alabama, Nevada and Virginia

The report, by the Pew Project on the States, urges state legislators to reconsider policies — such as mandatory sentences — that force states to devote funds to building and managing prisons. The period over the last 20 years in which many states imposed new sentencing rules and saw their prison populations swell has seen a growing gap between spending rates on corrections and higher ed. During the last 20 years, corrections spending has increased by 127 percent on top of inflation, while spending on higher ed has increased only 21 percent.

[World Traveler]

States may free inmates to save millions

(Note: playing out just as we thought...)

" By RAY HENRY, Associated Press Writer 31 minutes ago



PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Lawmakers from California to Kentucky are trying to save money with a drastic and potentially dangerous budget-cutting proposal: releasing tens of thousands of convicts from prison...

At least eight states are considering freeing inmates or sending some convicts to rehabilitation programs instead of prison, according to an Associated Press analysis of legislative proposals...

A plan in Mississippi would offer early parole for people convicted of selling marijuana or prescription drugs. New Jersey, South Carolina and Vermont are considering funneling drug-addicted offenders into treatment, which is cheaper than prison...

In California, where lawmakers have taken steps to cut a $16 billion budget deficit in half by summer, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed saving $400 million by releasing more than 22,000 inmates who had less than 20 months remaining on their sentences. Violent and sex offenders would not be eligible. Laying off prison guards and making it more difficult to send parole violators back to state prison would account for part of the savings..."

I tried to post the link to article, but it threw off formatting for note (too long). To find the article on the web: Title of this post is title of article. It is an Associated Press article, dated today, April 3. I included author's name with article snippets above.

[Rajiv]

Re: States may free inmates to save millions

Here is the article linked

States may free inmates to save millions

[flintlock]

Re: U.S.-Biggest Jail Population in World-Expensive

America has so many people in prisons for the simple fact that it has so many unlawful, unethical, criminals in its population. Not PC, but its true. America has an ethics and morality problem, not a prison problem. I think this point is being driven home recently with all these Wall Street shenanigans. America is corrupt, from top to bottom. From Politicians and corporate executives, right down to the local street thug. The sooner we wake up and admit it, the better. If you took all the people who SHOULD be in prison, you'd see those numbers double. A huge number of serious criminals get out early on parole, get off with mostly probation, or just never get caught. White collar crime is just laughed at mostly.

We will need to decriminalize a lot of drugs, if just to make room for the really nasty criminals. ( like the politicians)