Galbraith on Greece

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

I'm red-baiting?

I live in a country where Communists are actually in power, many have seats in Parliament (KKE), where I see communist marches (now frequently) and hammer and sickle graffiti is ubiquitous.

Once, again, Woodsmen, you can't make that intellectual leap. When you're talking to me, remember, we are not discussing US politics, with American centric analysis, we're discussing Balkan politics, with its own unique history and current circumstances.

How often have you discussed things with people that live abroad, living in very different cultures and political systems? Because all your links above have very little to do with what is going on in Greece right now.

And yes, I have friends and relatives that are communists. Real communists. Do you?

Accusing someone of being a communist in Greece is a moot, pointless exercise. There is nothing to hide, they admit it, and I am happy that I live in a country where they can express their views.

But I will argue with them about economics and politics. I will disagree with them, but we don't persecute each other for those views.

It's 2015, for gods sake, not 1947.

[don]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Pretty much. But Greeks are really, really independent minded and want to see the ship 3/4 sunk before they change their mind.

That’s especially true where I’ve been staying here in the port-city of Piraeus, which – being the country’s biggest port, is home to mostly blue collar, working class folks where unions more or less dominate.

To illustrate the political leanings around here, I hazily recall a headline in a newsfeed summing up their worldview quite accurately: “Piraeus – a neighborhood where Syriza is not quite left-wing enough.”

Class matters?

Who knew . . . .

[GRG55]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

The assumption is that Germany itself is an unsinkable ship, but I think Germany is moving towards a long term industrial decline for the following reasons:

1. Slowed Asian demand for luxury cars and products.
2. Greater competition worldwide for industrial and infrastructure goods.
3. Competition from American companies for smart/self-driving cars, smart home alarm and appliances.

In 10 years, Germany would be another Japan.

Germany may be headed for a short term decline if it actually gets to the point where it refuses to recycle its current account surpluses to fund the current account deficit nations of Europe that form an important part of its export markets. As jk has pointed out, that recycling could well be in the form of promoting German consumption of the goods and services produced elsewhere in Europe, instead of charity loans. However, other than sunshine holidays to escape the Hamburg winters I wouldn't be too optimistic.

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

No one is red baiting, but cheer leading for the left doesn't work either...

Bullshit.

redbait

(redirected from redbaiting)
Also found in: Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
red·bait

(rĕd′bāt′)tr.v. red·bait·ed, red·bait·ing, red·baits

To accuse, denounce, or attack (a person, for example) as a Communist or a Communist sympathizer.

red′bait′er n.
red′bait′ing n.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
-----
red•bait
(ˈrɛdˌbeɪt)

v.i.to accuse a person or group of being communistic or communist.

red′bait`er, n.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

You use that those endearing appellations more than any single person on this site. And now Our Man in Greece seems just as comfortable slinging around the slander. Because that's what it is and might even rise to libel given the right circumstances.

I'm sure even the hint of such a thing gives EJ oh-so much motivation to keep this place going, you think VT?

It's certainly intended to scandalize and discredit the target and their ideas, destroying their reputation rendering them a non-person or worse. It's also a warning to others to avoid dissent along similar grounds.

What little effort it would take to enumerate those many times you've flung such mud is more than I care to exert on a peaceful Friday morning. And now you've gained a partner whose own red baiting was as evident as your denials are transparent. But surely just as odd and anachronistic.

Who in our history engaged in this discredited practice?




Who employs it today with similar enthusiasm?

You guys aren't fooling anyone.

[touchring]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Pretty much. But Greeks are really, really independent minded and want to see the ship 3/4 sunk before they change their mind.

The assumption is that Germany itself is an unsinkable ship, but I think Germany is moving towards a long term industrial decline for the following reasons:

1. Slowed Asian demand for luxury cars and products.
2. Greater competition worldwide for industrial and infrastructure goods.
3. Competition from American companies for smart/self-driving cars, smart home alarm and appliances.

In 10 years, Germany would be another Japan.

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Pretty much. But Greeks are really, really independent minded and want to see the ship 3/4 sunk before they change their mind.

[touchring]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Slimprofits, those are vt's words, not Stockman's.

My problem is that David Stockman is analyzing this as a Big EU v Small independent country and completely ignores the current Greek government's makeup.

His entire article is moot. He mentions nationalizing the banks, yet has no idea what type of Government Greece currently has, and what many of the ministers' aspirations really are. Or at least, he doesn't address it, or go into detail as to why Greece is where it is.

His article is a beat up European elite piece that ignores too many other factors going on in Greece. He gives his own take on the referendum, which I can't blame him there... it's too ambiguous.

Greece is a boat with a severely damaged hull. Period. Tweaking the engine, filling up the tank with diesel alone isn't going to fix it. It will still sink.

How about lifting the boat out of the water and placing it on a German ship? Isn't this is what it is all about?

[vt]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

No one is red baiting, but cheer leading for the left doesn't work either.

Right and Left don't work. The world doesn't need Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Crony Capitalists or elite government supported oligarchs either.

A political system to save us hasn't been created yet, but the world needs one. It may arrive before one fully realizes it as the people need it.


P.S. Jim Webb announced today. He could eventually run as an independent, and is closer to the new system as any other candidate.

[Jam]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

SYRIZA has accomplished three things:

1) They re-hired cleaning ladies [...]

2) They re-opened EPT [...]

3) They gave a lunch allowance [...]

4) They passed a law [...]

who's counting...

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Slimprofits, those are vt's words, not Stockman's.

My problem is that David Stockman is analyzing this as a Big EU v Small independent country and completely ignores the current Greek government's makeup.

His entire article is moot. He mentions nationalizing the banks, yet has no idea what type of Government Greece currently has, and what many of the ministers' aspirations really are. Or at least, he doesn't address it, or go into detail as to why Greece is where it is.

His article is a beat up European elite piece that ignores too many other factors going on in Greece. He gives his own take on the referendum, which I can't blame him there... it's too ambiguous.

Greece is a boat with a severely damaged hull. Period. Tweaking the engine, filling up the tank with diesel alone isn't going to fix it. It will still sink.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

I understand GNK's frustration, re: responding to the commentary of foreigners with no skin on the line in Greece, but this:

Unfortunately the knee jerk proponents of communism and socialism interject into any nation's misfortune systems that have failed time and again. Communism especially is repressive to freedom. Socialism fails when others money and patience runs out.

is baffling. David Stockman is a knee-jerk proponent of communism and socialism? Okay. These words have no longer have agreed upon definitions.

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

I don't believe there is much chance of meaningful reform without a serious crisis first (and even then, sufficient change is never assured). Not unique to Greece; it's human nature. Everywhere.

The bailouts allowed the Europeans enough time to protect their banks by transferring most of the debt to the public balance sheet, while the consequences for the Greeks were further concentrated and amplified.

The banks should have been punished more, I agree. But I'm looking at Greece right now.

It wasn't the new debt that initially wacked the Greek economy. After all, the debt payments as a percentage of GDP are still lower than other EU countries. And in the first few years, Greece wasn't even forced to have a positive surplus. You know what hit GDP initially? The end of the deficit financed corruption economy. GDP would have collapsed even more if Greece defaulted and went drachma. A new currency for a corrupt government? That would have gone over well.

Greece is not a nordic country. Understand that, and you understand that economic theories work differently in different countries. Malinvestments produce short term unsustainable growth - back to square one.

[gnk]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Look, I'm no right wing teabagger. Heck, I'm all for socialized medicine and something has got to be done for Higher education in the US. So what does that make me?

But here in Greece, we have real life Marxists, in office, that visit Venezuela and say "great job!" It's a different game than the overplayed commie scare tactic used by Republicans in the US whenever someone dare thinks of socializing medicine.

You are still projecting your North Americancentric analysis onto a Balkan country. Here, it's real.

You still don't get it.

[GRG55]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

I don't believe there is much chance of meaningful reform without a serious crisis first (and even then, sufficient change is never assured). Not unique to Greece; it's human nature. Everywhere.

The bailouts allowed the Europeans enough time to protect their banks by transferring most of the debt to the public balance sheet, while the consequences for the Greeks were further concentrated and amplified.

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece / Suicide Rate Surges 35% In 2 Years

Unfortunately the knee jerk proponents of communism and socialism interject...

Yes, shocked shocked to see red baiting here.



You're winning sir. Don't mind the smell. That's herring they're cooking up in the kitchen.