Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

[Woodsman]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Perfecto, Woods. (or more precisely, the perfect blend)

It's the Greek version of hope and change. And now I just saw the piece where the new PM says no default. All over but the crying now and one more win for the banks.

[don]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

It's the Greek version of hope and change. And now I just saw the piece where the new PM says no default. All over but the crying now and one more win for the banks.

28 January 2015 Last updated at 11:04 ET


Greece will not default - PM Tsipras


Debt write-off

The headline-grabbing Syriza policy that has shaken the eurozone is a promise to write off most of Greece's €319bn ($363bn; £239bn) debt, which is a colossal 175% of its gross domestic product (GDP).

But the write-off is only part of it. Syriza also wants:

• Repayment of the remaining debt tied to economic growth, not the Greek budget
• A "significant moratorium" on debt payments
• The purchase of Greek sovereign bonds under the European Central Bank's €60bn ($68bn; £45bn) monthly programme of quantitative easing

Syriza wants a European Debt Conference modelled on the London Debt Conference of 1953, when half of Germany's post-World War Two debt was written off, leading to a sharp increase in economic growth. If it happened for Germany, it can happen for Greece, the party argues.

For both Syriza and its coalition partner, the centre-right Independent Greeks, the Nazi occupation of their country during World War Two looms large.

Syriza wants Germany to repay a loan that the Nazis forced the Bank of Greece to pay during the occupation. That would work out at an estimated €11bn ($12.5bn; £8.2bn) today. The Independent Greeks also want Germany to pay war reparations.

[Southernguy]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Ahhhh noooo!!!!!
Huge foreign German debt post WW2 was not Germany's fault.
Not to forget: after Germany went off Greece during the war the british invaded. They freed all war criminals collaborators with the nazis and formed a national guard which, with british support began massacring the triunfang guerrillas who had fought the germans. Many thousands of civilians as well as guerrillas were killed or incarcerated, tortured using the same methods as the nazis. Until the fall of the military dictatorship in the seventies Greece was ruled as a ruthless criminal regime.
Syriza is right...history looms large.
And of course huge military spending arising from NATO membership is big in the economic equation.

[shiny!]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

It's the Greek version of hope and change. And now I just saw the piece where the new PM says no default. All over but the crying now and one more win for the banks.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but remember when the Swiss central bank pledged to continue the peg to the Euro, then dropped it a week later with no warning?

-AKA-

"How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving."

[Woodsman]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but remember when the Swiss central bank pledged to continue the peg to the Euro, then dropped it a week later with no warning?

-AKA-

"How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving."

When it's serious you have to lie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ve-to-lie.html

[shiny!]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

When it's serious you have to lie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ve-to-lie.html

YUCK... on so many levels. How can these people stand themselves?

[touchring]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

There are many more examples that show how dysfunctional Greece is. Greek government shows no respect for property rights or business growth. How can one blame Brussels? If anything, Brussels is leaning on Greece to improve its handling of such issues. Personally, I prefer Brussels, or even Germany to come here and run things.


Recent developments:


Many people held off on paying taxes in order to see what the new taxes will be with the new Tsipras Government. We're talking about a collapse of tax revenue from December to now - probably well over a billion.

This is really bad, was it like this before the Depression? Could it be caused by the shortage of manpower (to collect tax) and funds to update the IT system for tax collection.

Even in former third world and developing countries like Indonesia, Vietnam, you need to pay taxes as everything is computerized. If you've ever traveled or done business in this 2 countries, you'll be shocked by the efficiency by businesses and the establishment (to earn your cash). As I've maintained, everyone is progressing and there's no waiting for Europe, Ukraine or ISIS.

http://www.futuregov.asia/articles/5...roject-in-2015

Indonesia to spend US$2.4 million on smart city project in 2015

Indonesia’s capital, Jakarta, will invest IDR 30 billion (US$2.4 million) on its smart city project this year, the team told FutureGov.


60 per cent of the money will be spent on building an operations centre that will help monitor and respond to complaints from citizens, said Alberto Ali, Head of Technical Unit, Smart City Jakarta. The remaining will be used for operations and human resources to run the centre, he said.

The smart city project was launched in December by Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama with a new website, smartcity.jakarta.go.id, and mobile apps for citizens and civil servants.

Residents are already using the app called Qlue to report complaints on traffic accidents, crime, natural disasters and sanitation by submitting location-tagged photos. Anyone can view these complaints, along with traffic conditions and CCTV footage on a map (see below) on the smart city web site.

Jakarta smart city staff will receive these reports through the new operations centre and will then send the reports to the relevant officers in the field, Ali explained. Officers will be able to monitor incoming reports on their devices using an app called Cepat Respon Opini Publik (Bahasa for ‘Quick Response to Public Opinion’).

Governor Purnama aims to integrate the six biggest city government units - transport, public utilities, health, sanitation, tax and local government - with the common operations centre by the end of the year, Ali added.

The government has also set up a new smart city unit this year with 100 employees to oversee the projects.

[meofio]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Indonesian economy is a bubble

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecol...ubble-economy/

[Woodsman]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

YUCK... on so many levels. How can these people stand themselves?

Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money....

[GRG55]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Thanks EJ.

I think a lot of people are projecting their own sociopolitical/economic theories onto this story, adopting an innocent David and evil Goliath meme.

Greece needs structural changes. I know that may sound nebulous to many here. But here's a real-life example on how things work here in Greece:

A law expired on Dec 31st that dealt with Wills and Estates. An election followed. At this moment, if you are inheriting something in Greece, real property, etc... nothing is happening. The entire process is frozen. That means you can't sell or convey any real property until a new law is passed dictating how the new estate process works. Ask a lawyer when this is likely to happen and you get a shrug. I have cousins that are trapped by the lack of this law. This is how property rights are handled by a dysfunctional government.

Another example: private sector second language teachers/tutors need to be licensed. Makes sense, right? The Ministry of Education that issues these licenses has stopped issuing licenses until a new process is approved. This has been going on since March 2014. Still no license process.

There are many more examples that show how dysfunctional Greece is. Greek government shows no respect for property rights or business growth. How can one blame Brussels? If anything, Brussels is leaning on Greece to improve its handling of such issues. Personally, I prefer Brussels, or even Germany to come here and run things.

Recent developments:

Many people held off on paying taxes in order to see what the new taxes will be with the new Tsipras Government. We're talking about a collapse of tax revenue from December to now - probably well over a billion.

Right now:

The markets are tanking, bond yields are rising, and Tsipras just made an announcement: Greece will not default

What a surprise. Eventually his actions will follow one of his conflicting messages. I think Tsipras, just like any other newly minted national leader, is fast learning how the markets react to what you say.

This Prime Minister's tax revenue's are collapsing, bank shares tumbling, bond yields rising, stock market tanking.... We're watching the speedy education of a young, idealistic PM.

Hope he's a quick learner! He wants to give free electricity to the poor, a noble idea. But what if the whole country goes dark? Tough to pull off that one.

This reminds me of the election of the Parti Québécois in 1976, the separatist party in the Province of Quebec. The Canadian dollar started to tank immediately after. The same talk of "humiliation". The same sort of immediate post-election euphoric division of the spoils of victory. The same type of rhetoric about what concessions would be required from the ROC (rest of Canada) to placate perpetually offended Quebecers, and the same sort of "or else" chatter.

The separation movement has all but disappeared with the PQ winning only 30 of the 125 seats in the Quebec legislature in the election last April.

The Greeks won't separate. Some concessions will be made; after all Greece isn't the only EMU member with a declining economy and too much debt . Unlike Canada, I doubt it will take 38 years for the effort to fizzle.

[touchring]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Indonesian economy is a bubble

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecol...ubble-economy/

Actually, I would agree with you. Everywhere is a bubble, but there's a difference between then (in 1997) and today.

In 1997, Indonesia was one of the most corrupted country in the world. Bank owners (controlled by ethnic Chinese businessmen) literally plundered the banks openly. This was followed by racial riots where thousands died.

Unlike in the US and EU when bank depositors were protected, that was not the case in Indonesia. They had the full impact. The Rupiah depreciated, as it always had.

If the bubble blows, it will be bad, but I don't think it will be 1997 all over again.

[gnk]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

This is really bad, was it like this before the Depression? Could it be caused by the shortage of manpower (to collect tax) and funds to update the IT system for tax collection.

Even in former third world and developing countries like Indonesia, Vietnam, you need to pay taxes as everything is computerized. If you've ever traveled or done business in this 2 countries, you'll be shocked by the efficiency by businesses and the establishment (to earn your cash). As I've maintained, everyone is progressing and there's no waiting for Europe, Ukraine or ISIS.

It has nothing to do with a shortage of manpower. It was worse before the Depression. In many aspects, Greece functions much like a third world country. With the involvement of the EU, Greece is actually improving.

That's why when I hear people say that Greece should free itself from Brussel's bureaucratic rule, I laugh. That is so far from the truth. Greece needs Brussels.

Greece has many communist characteristics. Tsipras wants Greece to go back to state owned enterprises with bloated payrolls. That's his idea of wealth creation. Tax private enterprise, and grow government payrolls.

However, Greece does also have a problem with the extremely wealthy that basically get a free pass. The previous Prime Minister, Samaras, recently fired the EU preferred tax collector supposedly to protect some very wealthy families. Tsipras wants to go after them. I'm fine with that. But that's where it ends with Tsipras. The rest of his platform/beliefs is close to Marxism with no support to small businesses, or any businesses for that matter.

Greece's ineptitude in creating a stable set of regulations that deal with property rights and business creation causes the self employed to break the law in order to keep their businesses running, or even to open a business.

People pay taxes with wads of cash at the local tax office. Greece is far from an electronic payment system. That too contributes to tax evasion, graft. The EU wants to change that.

Before the depression, you wanted something done at a government hospital? You went there with an envelope of cash and gave it to the doctor. With the Depression, and with pressure from Brussels, that practice has basically ended.

I said it before: Greece needs to remain a ward of Europe. Europe knows this. Europe knows that if they cancel the debt and give Greece money - Greece will piss it away once again and end up broke.

In 1981, Andreas Papandreou with his PASOK party became Prime Minister of Greece. Greece's debt to gdp ratio was about 25%. He began the process of growing the government payroll to maintain a growing voter base. He was an extreme socialist. Patronage ensued, corruption followed, both political parties did whatever they could to win elections. That entire era culminated in the crash that led to Greece's depression. The EU had nothing to do with it, Greece was on that path before the loans.

From 1967 to 1974 Greece was ruled by a Junta - the Colonels - a dictatorship. They built many infrastructure projects, on time, with no graft, and did not grow Greece's debt. I'm not saying this because I support dictatorships - I don't. I'm saying this to show people that Greece is more complicated than this evil/good story you see in the media.

Greece has benefited from the Depression in one aspect. It is slowly becoming a modern country with Brussels' and Germany's help because the local political class could never accomplish such reforms on their own.

Those that say Greece should shake off the bureaucratic EU "yoke of oppression" should open a business in Greece. It has nothing to do with the evil bankers. I used to think that too. Living here has changed my view.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

A question of respect (or lack thereof)… – the Greek veto over Russia that never was

Posted on January 29, 2015 by yanisv

On the first day in our ministries, the power of the media to distort hit me again. The world’s press was full of reports on how the SYRIZA government’s first foreign policy ‘move’ was to veto fresh sanctions on Russia. Now, I am not qualified to speak on foreign affairs but, nonetheless, I must share this with you at a personal level. Our Foreign Minister, Nikos Kotzias, briefed us that on his first day at the job he heard in the news bulletins that the EU had approved new sanctions on Russia unanimously. The problem was that he, and the new Greek government, were never asked! So, clearly, the issue was not whether our new government agrees or not with fresh sanctions on Russia. The issue is whether our view can be taken for granted without even being told of what it is! From my perspective, even though (let me state it again) I am certainly not qualified to speak on foreign affairs, this is all about a question of respect for our national sovereignty. Could journalists the world over try to draw this important distinction between protesting our being neglected from protesting the sanctions themselves? Or is this too complicated?



http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/01/29...-lack-thereof/

[touchring]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

Those that say Greece should shake off the bureaucratic EU "yoke of oppression" should open a business in Greece. It has nothing to do with the evil bankers. I used to think that too. Living here has changed my view.

Thank you for giving us a great insight. Perhaps the corruption was already there before the dictatorship, just that the dictatorship ensured that they will be punished. Once the dictatorship is gone, the problem reveals itself.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Will Greece be the first country to overthrow the rule of bankers and elites?

It has nothing to do with a shortage of manpower. It was worse before the Depression. In many aspects, Greece functions much like a third world country. With the involvement of the EU, Greece is actually improving.

That's why when I hear people say that Greece should free itself from Brussel's bureaucratic rule, I laugh. That is so far from the truth. Greece needs Brussels.

Greece has many communist characteristics. Tsipras wants Greece to go back to state owned enterprises with bloated payrolls. That's his idea of wealth creation. Tax private enterprise, and grow government payrolls.

However, Greece does also have a problem with the extremely wealthy that basically get a free pass. The previous Prime Minister, Samaras, recently fired the EU preferred tax collector supposedly to protect some very wealthy families. Tsipras wants to go after them. I'm fine with that. But that's where it ends with Tsipras. The rest of his platform/beliefs is close to Marxism with no support to small businesses, or any businesses for that matter.

Greece's ineptitude in creating a stable set of regulations that deal with property rights and business creation causes the self employed to break the law in order to keep their businesses running, or even to open a business.

People pay taxes with wads of cash at the local tax office. Greece is far from an electronic payment system. That too contributes to tax evasion, graft. The EU wants to change that.

Before the depression, you wanted something done at a government hospital? You went there with an envelope of cash and gave it to the doctor. With the Depression, and with pressure from Brussels, that practice has basically ended.

I said it before: Greece needs to remain a ward of Europe. Europe knows this. Europe knows that if they cancel the debt and give Greece money - Greece will piss it away once again and end up broke.

In 1981, Andreas Papandreou with his PASOK party became Prime Minister of Greece. Greece's debt to gdp ratio was about 25%. He began the process of growing the government payroll to maintain a growing voter base. He was an extreme socialist. Patronage ensued, corruption followed, both political parties did whatever they could to win elections. That entire era culminated in the crash that led to Greece's depression. The EU had nothing to do with it, Greece was on that path before the loans.

From 1967 to 1974 Greece was ruled by a Junta - the Colonels - a dictatorship. They built many infrastructure projects, on time, with no graft, and did not grow Greece's debt. I'm not saying this because I support dictatorships - I don't. I'm saying this to show people that Greece is more complicated than this evil/good story you see in the media.

Greece has benefited from the Depression in one aspect. It is slowly becoming a modern country with Brussels' and Germany's help because the local political class could never accomplish such reforms on their own.

Those that say Greece should shake off the bureaucratic EU "yoke of oppression" should open a business in Greece. It has nothing to do with the evil bankers. I used to think that too. Living here has changed my view.

You sound very capable. May I be so bold as to suggest that you get involved and set out to repair what you feel is presently disfunctional; with a vew to leaving Greece in a better place than when you arrived.