Gas Prices Rising

[Polish_Silver]

Re: lighter cars--nanocellulose

Very interesting article, Shiny.

Tree's seem to know their structural engineering.

I don't doubt that some day a radically different material will be used in our buildings and vehicles.

The article mentions a huge problem: Water is to cellulose like it is to the wicked witch. Just dissolves it.
Water was also the bane of some composite materials tried for autos in the 1980's.

The water problem may never be solved. Or it may take a really long time. . To get from laboratory to market for something like this takes a really long time, even ignoring the water problem.

For one thing, the whole production process would have to change. Instead of welding and bolts, you would need to use glue and dowels, or something.

The interesting question is how the adoption of the new technology happens.

[GRG55]

Re: lighter cars

I don't doubt that much higher mileage is possible, possibly with the car cost going up quite a bit, but lasting a long time.

Historically, non steel materials have had trouble being durable and sufficiently crash proof. Airplanes often use aluminum alloys ("Duralumin") the stuff has hardness and tensile strength comparable to steel, with about 1/3 the weight. However, it is subject to creep and more brittle than steel. Are there any cars on the market now, using something other than steel for thier structure?

Even using steel, I am sure weight could be reduced substantially. Honeycomb structures, more sophisticated alloys, etc.

Airplanes use a whole variety of materials. For example most airplanes are built with landing gear made out of steel alloys, because it's better than any aluminum alloy for that purpose. Airplanes also use combinations of plastic composites, titanium, ceramics and other materials in different parts of the airframe to optimize the strength to weight ratio at a "reasonable cost".

Automobiles are built exactly the same way. Different parts are made from different materials to optimize building a vehicle that best meets all the competing design goals including light weight, crash-worthiness, durability and cost. The idea that there is some "perfect" existing material sitting on the shelf that has yet to be adopted by the manufacturers is completely incorrect. I doubt there is any industry that invests as much in research and development of their products as the global automotive industry collectively (I don't think there is any other industry that could afford to invest that much each year).

Very interesting article, Shiny.


Tree's seem to know their structural engineering.


I don't doubt that some day a radically different material will be used in our buildings and vehicles.


The article mentions a huge problem: Water is to cellulose like it is to the wicked witch. Just dissolves it.
Water was also the bane of some composite materials tried for autos in the 1980's.


The water problem may never be solved. Or it may take a really long time. . To get from laboratory to market for something like this takes a really long time, even ignoring the water problem.


For one thing, the whole production process would have to change. Instead of welding and bolts, you would need to use glue and dowels, or something.


The interesting question is how the adoption of the new technology happens.

It's been happening for generations.


Materials science and technologies are constantly evolving, and as new advances are made they get adopted by the manufacturers as they prove out to be better than the current alternatives. Some of the manufacturers sponsor racing teams (Formula One, NASCAR, etc.) and use those platforms as test beds for new materials components, manufacturing techniques and performance under stress before they are introduced on the production line. I used to work for a multi-national petroleum company with a chemical division that invented very high technology plastics that they used to test in a NASCAR race car before marketing them to the mainstream auto industry.

As to your view that automobile weight could be reduced substantially, you are correct. Audi and Jaguar already make cars that are predominantly aluminum alloy bodies. The Chevrolet Corvette has always been built with plastic composite bodies since it was introduced in the 1950s. But you won't see any of these under consideration by don for the "Big Boss's" next vehicle for obvious reasons.

The predominantly composite airframe Cirrus SR22 and Cessna Corvalis TTx, or the predominantly aluminum Beechcraft G36 Bonanza cost about $800,000 new. Automobile manufacturers could probably build a car using existing materials that weighs not much more than a comparably sized airplane. I doubt many of your family or friends would buy one.

[Polish_Silver]

(lack of) privilege in engineering

. . .

We all know in our private work lives that a lot of people got the job by virtue of the school they attended not because they were the best person for the job, at least in finance.

I'm happy to report that in engineering, it seems to be more like a meritocracy. The VP at linear technology had only a high school diploma. Although I attended a big name college, I usually report to people who graduated from state colleges.

In fact, it's happened twice that I reported too someone who was a protestant fundamentalist, disbeliever in evolution, etc.
I think part of the reason is that these people have a lot of respect for authority, and companies like that.

[lektrode]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

I'm happy to report that in engineering, it seems to be more like a meritocracy. The VP at linear technology had only a high school diploma. Although I attended a big name college, I usually report to people who graduated from state colleges.
...

would think mr silver, thats because engineers actually have to be proficient at the hard stuff - you know: math, science - at least REAL science, as opposed to political 'science' - and so dont/cant get away with spouting BS and sucking up to get ahead (or need to resort to 'giving it' for a promotion ;)



and this ones even better!

[GRG55]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

would think mr silver, thats because engineers actually have to be proficient at the hard stuff - you know: math, science - at least REAL science, as opposed to political 'science' - and so dont/cant get away with spouting BS and sucking up to get ahead (or need to resort to 'giving it' for a promotion ;)

I once had a Civil engineer tell me that he had to take his job very seriously because if he didn't "bridges would fall down". My response was that a bridge is fudamentally an exercise in Statics analysis. Once it starts to fall it becomes a Dynamics problem. That's a different Department ;-)

[Polish_Silver]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

I once had a Civil engineer tell me that he had to take his job very seriously because if he didn't "bridges would fall down". My response was that a bridge is fudamentally an exercise in Statics analysis. Once it starts to fall it becomes a Dynamics problem. That's a different Department ;-)

GRG, you need to be working for the federal government, in financial sector oversight. They are up to 70 different agencies now, so "a different department" is where all the blame will be directed. Was it Geithner who said "I am not a regulator, per se".

[lektrode]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

GRG, you need to be working for the federal government, in financial sector oversight. They are up to 70 different agencies now, so "a different department" is where all the blame will be directed. Was it Geithner who said "I am not a regulator, per se".

esp since its not the 'justice' dept's function to pay attention to the banksters frolics... and things do tend to get a bit murky when viewed from 40000feet, after all...

[evangellydonut]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

I'm happy to report that in engineering, it seems to be more like a meritocracy. The VP at linear technology had only a high school diploma. Although I attended a big name college, I usually report to people who graduated from state colleges.

In fact, it's happened twice that I reported too someone who was a protestant fundamentalist, disbeliever in evolution, etc.
I think part of the reason is that these people have a lot of respect for authority, and companies like that.

Only if the review system is setup fairly... I slaved away at a (remain unnamed) defense company for 2 years, all managers in my department, except my direct one, highly valued my service. Nevertheless, I was seen by HR as dispensable and not eligible for promotion, so I left. Almost 2 years after leaving, I still run into former coworkers who tells me that they were recently talking about how the program would be better had I stayed... In short, meritocracy with a twist of politics... you have to know who to please and how to please them, not just do the best job you can. I don't consider that as meritocracy. On a similar note, my wife recently learned that there's major ageism in her company that made her promotion very difficult... same is true with the companies I've worked for... many times, the job description specifies minimum years of experience without consideration on what you've done, and even with sufficient experience, they may not give you the right title because you are too young.

Now that I've finally found a decently good employer, I've also had enough bs and going to try and start my own gig... see how that goes...

As for the material engineering topic of this thread, I recently received some advertising material from Porsche about how the 2014 Cayman will be made from something like 5 different types of steel to maximize integrity while minimizing weight. There's been some article about VW going back to steel (from aluminum) to reduce weight. Ultimately, I think once carbon fiber manufacturing can be automated (80+% of the cost today is still manual labor to form the material), we'll find cars with much more carbon-fiber... maybe only the passenger compartment is protected by steel, as the failure mode of carbon fiber is not pretty... either it bends to limits well beyond metal, or it shatters catastrophically...

[Polish_Silver]

FBI, mortgage fraud, and Bush

Well, the FBI was going after the mortgage fraud, until Bush told them to drop that and focus on terrorism. How I love 9-11 ! It seems to have created our situation in so many ways!

[shiny!]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

as the failure mode of carbon fiber is not pretty... either it bends to limits well beyond metal, or it shatters catastrophically...

I wonder why carbon fiber motorcycle helmets are so popular? Everybody says they're much more protective than regular helmets. They certainly cost a lot more...

[evangellydonut]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

I wonder why carbon fiber motorcycle helmets are so popular? Everybody says they're much more protective than regular helmets. They certainly cost a lot more...

Probably because it absorbs and distributes impact much better than polycarbonate helmets and lighter at the same time.

Being a motorcycle rider, I know there's been a fair amount of controversy in recent years about how a helmet should react under impact... (like how Snell 2000 that most helmets in the US were qualified to until 2008 was actually more harmful... apparently, the Europeans knew better, as most Euro helmets only met DOT standards that were better) previous thought was that the best way to protect is by not shattering... except that transferred most amount of impact to the soft material in the cranium, which can only take a few Gs before permanent damage. So the thought shifted to more flexible material that's rigid enough to absorb a shock but not so hard that it transfers all the impact. There's been similar discussions in NFL helmets in recent years...

I am not a specialist in the area, but sure make sense to me that the best helmet are those that dampens the impact to a G-force just below brain damage threshold but as close as possible to the threshold to maximize protection... at that point, the only variable is the dampening duration, which may vary with thickness among other things... but what do I know?

[lektrode]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

Probably because it absorbs and distributes impact much better than polycarbonate helmets and lighter at the same time.

Being a motorcycle rider, I know there's been a fair amount of controversy in recent years about how a helmet should react under impact........
....
I am not a specialist in the area, but sure make sense to me that the best helmet are those that dampens the impact to a G-force just below brain damage threshold but as close as possible to the threshold to maximize protection... at that point, the only variable is the dampening duration, which may vary with thickness among other things... but what do I know?

never been a fan of wearing a brain bucket - altho at the velocity i travel at - on groomers anyway - i really ought to start thinking about it - but dont venture into the woods as much as i used to, so will have to ponder it some more, i guess - and while they've got to be the latest fashion accessory on the hill, they are particularly handy for The Downhill and there's a bit of controversy at their ultimate effectiveness - carbon or otherwise - esp at the speeds that racers are hitting these daze...

and speaking of racing speeds - altho i've never witnessed it up close and personal, from what i've heard, there's nothing quite like the sound and fury of The Big Carbon Sticks when they go pop

and THEN we're really talkin about The Price of Failure

[aaron]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

Only if the review system is setup fairly... I slaved away at a (remain unnamed) defense company for 2 years, all managers in my department, except my direct one, highly valued my service. Nevertheless, I was seen by HR as dispensable and not eligible for promotion, so I left. Almost 2 years after leaving, I still run into former coworkers who tells me that they were recently talking about how the program would be better had I stayed... In short, meritocracy with a twist of politics... you have to know who to please and how to please them, not just do the best job you can. I don't consider that as meritocracy.
.

That has been my experience as well. While you certainly gain respect from your peers and maybe some of those higher up the food chain, a lot of the advancement is about kissing the right ass. I find it disheartening at times.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

Along those, lines, I felt that one reason I was not promoted was that I didn't speak/believe the company line of 20% annual growth forever. Sure enough, as of about 2000, the growth in sales, profits, and stock prices slowed way down.

Still, it was not about what college you went to, but the work you did and what you said/thought.

When I promoted myself by going to a competitor, the environment was quite different. There was no discernible "company line" except to get products out.

At the first company, it was forbidden to discuss compensation. (Though people did, of course). At the second company, there seemed to be no rules, and, by removing the taboo, it all seemed less important.

[plinko]

Re: (lack of) privilege in engineering

would think mr silver, thats because engineers actually have to be proficient at the hard stuff - you know: math, science - at least REAL science, as opposed to political 'science' - and so dont/cant get away with spouting BS and sucking up to get ahead (or need to resort to 'giving it' for a promotion ;)

Good engineers work from home . Seriously though, I started contracting from home and live next to a ski lift and only need to drive once a week, less if I was patient enough to take the bus across the street. Who cares about cars (although I wouldn't mind an X1d, honda element, or an old vw van kitted with a subaru diesel engine)