Hedges tracking Kunstler

[Raz]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

C1ue, I believe you're straining here and that you misrepresent Hedges' views. He's certainly no Luddite and none of the books or articles I've read has him calling for a return to some mythical state of nature. That being said, I think we're past the point of argument with regard to the depletion of our natural world but I suspect you might believe otherwise.

Hedges is a self-identified democratic socialist and has called for sigificantly more state intervention in the economy to include "massive government relief and work programs, the nationalization of electricity and gas companies, a universal, not-for-profit government health care program, the outlawing of hedge funds, a radical reduction of our bloated military budget and an end to imperial wars." He most certainly opposes globalization, neoliberalism and free market capitalism unfettered by regulation.

He's also a Christian and is something of a moralist. His father was a minister and Hedges himself, while not ordained, holds a degree from the Harvard Divinity School. Watch the interview with Moyers and you'll see that Hedges characterizes himself as a "sinner" and a "doubter" so likely has the whole "religious release" thing taken care of.

If you think about it, the notion of first world solipsism is spot on when you look at it from the perspective of, well, everywhere else. The US in particular seems to act under the belief that it is alone and disconnected from everything else. If our sort of national egoism and self-absorption isn't solipsism, then nothing is.

Although I'm probably 70 to 80% in disagreement with Hedges I do have respect for him. He's not covert with his socialistic beliefs and is apparently a man of real integrity.
That being said, he's not a Christian in any orthodox sense of the word. Like many graduates of Harvard Divinity he's a "cafeteria" christian who doesn't seem to hold orthodox views on most doctrinal questions. But then neither do many of the mainline protestant churches within the US and Canada.

[DSpencer]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

Climate change, exhaustion of natural resources - all point to ultimately questioning the mainspring of capitalism, everlasting growth based on ever-increasing consumption. Who wants to question that . . .

That does not seem like a feature unique to capitalism. Basically all of human history has been a struggle to obtain more resources. Do you know of other economic systems that run on good intentions or rainbows?

[DSpencer]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

I'm in absolute agreement with you. It's a distribution problem for now. At some point it's also going to be a depletion problem. Not either/or, but both.

What are the solutions?

It's already both in my opinion. The solutions?

1. Miraculous new technology
2. Drastic reduction in world population (war, disease, population control)
3. Gigantic decrease in living standards

Those are the only 3 I can imagine.

[DSpencer]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

The solution is right there, but people don't want to swallow the pill. Personal restraint and conservation. A modern lifestyle does not require extreme overconsumption of resources and the deprivation of others. And these developing countries need to rein in their reproduction rates. Asia and Africa account for 70% of the world's population. If they want equitable access to resources, they need to realize that they cannot keep throwing more people into the mix. I am not going to trade my prosperity away because people want to keep having more kids. That's your problem, not mine.

How many barrels per day is considered "extreme overconsumption"?

Currently the per capita consumption of oil in the US is about 5 times the global average. Are you willing to cut your consumption by 80%? What would that mean? Driving 1/5th the miles? Buying a vehicle every 50 years instead of every 10? Upgrading your phone every 10 years? I really don't know but it would be shocking to most.

If I recall you personally drive a scooter so maybe the changes would be less drastic. I still think it would be a huge change.

[BadJuju]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

It's already both in my opinion. The solutions?

1. Miraculous new technology
2. Drastic reduction in world population (war, disease, population control)
3. Gigantic decrease in living standards

Those are the only 3 I can imagine.

1. I do not really see this occurring. Either the science is simply not there yet or there are political (nuclear) problems that impede it. We will see greater improvements in efficiency as a result of technology, such as what we have seen lately with regards to CFLs and LED lighting. This is not something we should underestimate because it does make a large difference in addressing energy issues.

2. The biggest problem facing the developing world is its ridiculous reproduction rates. More than 60% of the world's population is in Asia. Africa's population is larger than all of the Americas combined. Most of the growth in the world's population is coming from Asia and Africa despite being some of the most destitute areas of the world. I just do not see how they are going to maintain these populations in the face of peak cheap oil. The developed countries consume too many resources, but it is much easier to embark on cutting consumption than it is to go to producing to meet demand for consumption.

3. It all depends upon what you mean by living standards. Places like the United States could dramatically alter its consumption of resources without an impact on living standards; however, it all depends on what you characterize living standards as. If you think being able to live in a 4,000 sq ft home while driving an SUV is synonymous with high standards of living, then yes, a gigantic decrease in living standards will ensue. On the other hand, if you are willing to adapt and recognize that the aforementioned things are simply not important, then it will not really represent a loss in living standards when those things become too costly. Places without resources and large populations, which typically characterize developing countries, will certainly suffer unfortunately.

[BadJuju]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

How many barrels per day is considered "extreme overconsumption"?

Currently the per capita consumption of oil in the US is about 5 times the global average. Are you willing to cut your consumption by 80%? What would that mean? Driving 1/5th the miles? Buying a vehicle every 50 years instead of every 10? Upgrading your phone every 10 years? I really don't know but it would be shocking to most.

If I recall you personally drive a scooter so maybe the changes would be less drastic. I still think it would be a huge change.

That is hard to say, but given your figure of the average American consuming 5 x the average, I'd say it is 5 x the average!

Good memory! I don't drive at all now, though. I ride a bicycle or walk, so my gasoline consumption is 0, although kind of hard to estimate my oil consumption with regards to food and such. I simply know from personal experience and the experiences of others that oil consumption can be dramatically curbed if the need presents itself. It presented itself when I couldn't afford to maintain a car, so I opted to use a motorcycle 365 days a year. And then as I became more experienced in living this way, I have hence cut out all gas consumption.

[Woodsman]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

"...he's not a Christian in any orthodox sense of the word"

With all due respect - and having read many of your posts, much is due indeed - that's just not a call you get to make, Raz.

Hedges may not be a good fit for your particular church or denomination, but he self-identifies as a Christian and that's where it ends; for me, at least. And as you said, if the mainline churches can "pick and choose" their doctrinal entrees and still remain in the Christian camp, we ought to take Chris at his word.

[Raz]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

"...he's not a Christian in any orthodox sense of the word"

With all due respect - and having read many of your posts, much is due indeed - that's just not a call you get to make, Raz.

Hedges may not be a good fit for your particular church or denomination, but he self-identifies as a Christian and that's where it ends; for me, at least. And as you said, if the mainline churches can "pick and choose" their doctrinal entrees and still remain in the Christian camp, we ought to take Chris at his word.

It is, however, a call that Mr. Hedges himself made.

Chris Hedges is a fine man who has chosen to reject orthodox Christianity in favor of Unitarianism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges#Personal_life
I have personally listened to interviews of Hedges where he clearly, specifically stated as much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalist

Unitarians reject the Trinity and thereby the Incarnation. One cannot possibly do this and be what I said, "... a Christian in any orthodox sense of the word".
And that applies to much of what passes for christianity today in the Western World where the clear moral law is often made "user friendly" to suit contemporary society.

But lets be clear about what I'm saying: Christ alone is going to judge mankind and he doesn't need any help from me. I'm called upon to pray for all men and worry about the judgement which awaits my own undeserving soul. Nevertheless, one has to have a rather selective reading of the New Testament - and the Gospel according to St. John in particular - to arrive at Unitarianism. And one must also reject the apostolic witness and the Holy Tradition in regard to the person and nature of Christ.

[Woodsman]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

Okay, Raz. It took the church fathers a couple of hundred years or so to resolve their views on onousios and hypostaseis. Then came the Reformation, the Thrity Years War, the Peace of Westphalia and enough death and wasted treasure for the parties to settle on "cuius regio, eius religio" and that's where we've left it.

If Unitarians, Presbyterians, snake handling Pentacostalists and anyone else in ther personal "regio" consider themselves Christian, then that's good enough for me. The rest I leave to the hereafter. Good chatting with you, Raz.

[Raz]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

Okay, Raz. It took the church fathers a couple of hundred years or so to resolve their views on onousios and hypostaseis. Then came the Reformation, the Thrity Years War, the Peace of Westphalia and enough death and wasted treasure for the parties to settle on "cuius regio, eius religio" and that's where we've left it.

If Unitarians, Presbyterians, snake handling Pentacostalists and anyone else in ther personal "regio" consider themselves Christian, then that's good enough for me. The rest I leave to the hereafter. Good chatting with you, Raz.

I've never heard of "onousios", but it was also good chatting with you.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/ort...tians_-_part_1

[Woodsman]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

Maybe I meant to type "nauseous." It's been a while since catechism and my last (only?) History of Western Religion class as an undergrad.

[c1ue]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

I'm in absolute agreement with you. It's a distribution problem for now. At some point it's also going to be a depletion problem. Not either/or, but both.

What are the solutions?

There isn't going to be a magic bullet, though of course anything is possible.

In my view, the result will be exactly what I noted: the costs for resources are going to go up - and the inevitable loser will be the first world nations' lifestyles. This doesn't mean Mad Max, but it does mean that the vast accumulation of resources cheaply available to every first worlder is going to significantly reduce - and with unforeseen consequences.

Places like the United States could dramatically alter its consumption of resources without an impact on living standards; however, it all depends on what you characterize living standards as. If you think being able to live in a 4,000 sq ft home while driving an SUV is synonymous with high standards of living, then yes, a gigantic decrease in living standards will ensue.

We've talked about this before - the above statement is not correct. Only a bit less than half of overall energy consumption is at the personal level. The other half is what goes into the infrastructure, the manufacturing of goods, etc etc - cutting that in half has direct and visible consequences.

[BadJuju]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

We've talked about this before - the above statement is not correct. Only a bit less than half of overall energy consumption is at the personal level. The other half is what goes into the infrastructure, the manufacturing of goods, etc etc - cutting that in half has direct and visible consequences.

28% of power consumed is for transportation purposes. 60-70% of oil consumption is for personal transportation and oil is the main source of energy for transportation. 22% of energy consumption in total comes from the residential sector. That means around 40% of energy consumption is directly in personal consumer hands. Another 20% is in commercial. There is a lot of room for cutting energy consumption across the board.

[c1ue]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

28% of power consumed is for transportation purposes. 60-70% of oil consumption is for personal transportation and oil is the main source of energy for transportation. 22% of energy consumption in total comes from the residential sector. That means around 40% of energy consumption is directly in personal consumer hands. Another 20% is in commercial. There is a lot of room for cutting energy consumption across the board.

I don't know where you get your data from, but it is not consistent with what the EIA has:

http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/...pdf/sec2_6.pdf

Year Residential Commercial Industrial Transportation Electric Total
2011P 21,619 18,021 30,592 27,079 39,346 97,301

Commercial and Industrial in 2011 totaled 48,613 which is 49.96% - add in some portion of Transport and it is clearly the majority.

Cutting 70% of Transportation energy use in half, for example, would shift the overall energy equation less than 10%. Not nearly enough.

[BadJuju]

Re: Hedges tracking Kunstler

There is a problem with looking at primary energy consumption because with reduced end-user consumption, you also have reduced primary energy consumption as well. End-user consumption is a more useful metric because any reduction in it will result in a reduction of primary energy consumption because there will be no need for conversion.

http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec2_4.pdf

Anyway, the US doesn't have a supply problem with regards to to electricity. We have ample reserves of numerous energy sources to generate electricity. The biggest problem facing the US is its oil consumption, which is just exorbitant in the face of PCO.