7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

[Raz]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I actually agree with your viewpoint, but I think you are missing what I am saying.

What I'm saying is that the numbers of deaths attributed to Mao cannot be accurate unless you understand what likely would have happened in a world without Mao.

For every person who died directly because of Mao, how many others were saved because their village was no longer subject to feudal rule, kept without even rudimentary medical knowledge, and had no local much less national infrastructure to support/protect/nurture them?

This doesn't excuse Mao's actions - particularly later in his life when his near deification in China's politics permitted all sorts of poor policies originating in Mao's not always correct views.

But for me, the one sided inflation of deaths accorded to Mao is not accurate as it discounts the inflation in human potential brought about by his presence.

The history of China from the 1800s onward until the Communist takeover was marred by tremendous suffering over and beyond what was 'normal' for that time - in no small part to the destruction of Chinese sovereignty in the interests of evening out the British balance of trade.

It is no different than the Reformation and Counter-Reformation of the Catholic Church: millions died due to the subsequent politically motivated religious wars, but the reality is that without Luther, Calvin, and others, the Catholic Church would not be what it is today.

I find myself in agreement with you more often than not, c1ue. In this particular case I agree with those statements I highlighted in green, but I disagree with those highlighted in red.

I realize that recurring famine was a fact of life in China for milleniums, and though the rigid application of Communist collectivization almost certainly increased the magnitude of the Great Famine of the late 1950s (and thereby the total death count), you're saying that there would have been a famine with a large number of deaths even if Mao had never been born and Chang Kai-shek had continued to rule. I can agree with that.

But from my world view each human being is absolutely unique (not even two snowflakes are exactly the same) and is of infinite value in the site of our Creator.
So to me it is a fallacy to attempt an offset by reasoning that whatever evil he did that caused millions more to die as a result of rural collectivization he balanced that out by whatever good he accomplished in ending feudalization and offering rudimentary medical care.
Being Orthodox I am called upon to do good, avoid harm to other humans if at all possible, but never allowed to do evil - no matter what the circumstance. The end never justifies any and all means, and no amount of good can "balance" out the willful commission of an evil act.

Being Orthodox I don't even agree with the Roman catholic church as to what constitutes the catholic church so it would take more posts than I will ever have time for to discuss that subject. Theologically speaking the Reformation hasn't really changed any Roman dogma except in the area of soterology, and that's of a limited nature.
Many Roman catholics are deeply disturbed at the innovations of Vatican II and desire a return to Tridentine catholicism. Whether they know it or not that would once again allow the burning of dissenters (Protestants) and even the Orthodox as well.


(Should you have any interest in these matters I'll be glad to recommend several excellent books.)

[c1ue]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I realize that recurring famine was a fact of life in China for milleniums, and though the rigid application of Communist collectivization almost certainly increased the magnitude of the Great Famine of the late 1950s (and thereby the total death count), you're saying that there would have been a famine with a large number of deaths even if Mao had never been born and Chang Kai-shek had continued to rule. I can agree with that.

But from my world view each human being is absolutely unique (not even two snowflakes are exactly the same) and is of infinite value in the site of our Creator.
So to me it is a fallacy to attempt an offset by reasoning that whatever evil he did that caused millions more to die as a result of rural collectivization he balanced that out by whatever good he accomplished in ending feudalization and offering rudimentary medical care.

I have no disagreement with what you've noted above, nor do I seek to excuse what Mao did or did not do.

What I point out is that there is no correct course of action. Infinite value to human life - or more appropriately, human souls, is perfectly understandable, but it allows for no correct course of action to someone in Mao's shoes in 1945.

Being Orthodox I am called upon to do good, avoid harm to other humans if at all possible, but never allowed to do evil - no matter what the circumstance. The end never justifies any and all means, and no amount of good can "balance" out the willful commission of an evil act.

I think this is a fine creed, but in reality there are many situations where it is impossible to follow.

Ultimately any major change will necessitate 'evil' in some definition.

It is well and good to equate 1 life or soul with 1 million lives or souls, but inaction itself is also an action.

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I don't believe the photo, and believe the story is suspect.

[evangellydonut]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I don't believe the photo, and believe the story is suspect.

This is nothing new... been going on since the 80s, just that nobody ever stood up and got heard until now. It's easy for central gov't to measure local gov't's compliance with the law since there are strict policies about population migration. Hospitals in the city and in the villages simply took care of it, claiming it was a stillbirth. The alternative of not meeting central gov't's "quota" is your job in a central planned economy, so it's effectively a forced retirement and public shaming regardless of age. Most people knows this to be the case and avoid hospitals entirely when they have their 2nd/3rd kid. Once the child is known to be alive, gov't will back-off and levy large fines.

[vinoveri]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Being Orthodox I don't even agree with the Roman catholic church as to what constitutes the catholic church so it would take more posts than I will ever have time for to discuss that subject. Theologically speaking the Reformation hasn't really changed any Roman dogma except in the area of soterology, and that's of a limited nature.
Many Roman catholics are deeply disturbed at the innovations of Vatican II and desire a return to Tridentine catholicism. Whether they know it or not that would once again allow the burning of dissenters (Protestants) and even the Orthodox as well.

Hi Raz, your worldview appears to be very close to mine based on the content of your recent posts. I have noticed at least a couple of instances in your posts, including this one, distinguishing yourself from the Roman church in a rather high-browed manner (please take no offense). I have to disagree on the above point regarding the Reformation changes to dogma. Notwithstanding the practical changes that have ensued due to the reformation (and the thousands of heterodox christian denominations), perhaps good and bad, the sacraments and the sacramental life in providing santifying grace in order for the individual to conform their lives to God (as created), most notably the belief in real presence of Christ in the eucharist seem to me to be absent from theology of most non-orthodox christians.

Perhaps I misunderstand, and would be glad to receive further explanation, but find your implied assertion that but for Vatican_II, catholics would still support burning dissenters to be somewhat beyond the pail. In no way will I defend or white-wash atrocities committed by any organization for whatever reason. You and I both know that the clear and present danger is not christian orthodoxy (including Roman Catholicism) but Secularism which is writing itself ever larger across current culture and political systems.

[BadJuju]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

but Secularism which is writing itself ever larger across current culture and political systems.

What is wrong with secularism?

[vinoveri]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

To be accurate, it was a 7 month-old fetus, not a 7 month-old baby. Still absolutely terrible, but different. I wouldn't be surprised to someday learn that they commit infanticide as well in cases where parents are over the limit.

On a separate note, aren't they going to have a big problem at some point of having too few young people working to support too many old people?

Shiny, you're right of course that the facts are different; however the moral choice presented the evil committed in either case is equivalent. Innocent human life taken.

no different than killing the infant 1 day before delivery and doing it the day after deliver
no different that deliberately destroying a human blastocyst at 6 days and "euthanizing" an unproductive octogenerian

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

This is nothing new... been going on since the 80s, just that nobody ever stood up and got heard until now. It's easy for central gov't to measure local gov't's compliance with the law since there are strict policies about population migration. Hospitals in the city and in the villages simply took care of it, claiming it was a stillbirth. The alternative of not meeting central gov't's "quota" is your job in a central planned economy, so it's effectively a forced retirement and public shaming regardless of age. Most people knows this to be the case and avoid hospitals entirely when they have their 2nd/3rd kid. Once the child is known to be alive, gov't will back-off and levy large fines.

I'm questioning why this issue is being publicized now in such a highly controlled society, not the controlled practice itself. Other than the obvious front story, what could the possible motives be for releasing such a narrative?

What is wrong with secularism?

Goedel showed in the 1930's that it is not complete and consistent.

[BadJuju]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Goedel showed in the 1930's that it is not complete and consistent.

What do you mean, sir?

[Raz]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Hi Raz, your worldview appears to be very close to mine based on the content of your recent posts. I have noticed at least a couple of instances in your posts, including this one, distinguishing yourself from the Roman church in a rather high-browed manner (please take no offense). I have to disagree on the above point regarding the Reformation changes to dogma. Notwithstanding the practical changes that have ensued due to the reformation (and the thousands of heterodox christian denominations), perhaps good and bad, the sacraments and the sacramental life in providing santifying grace in order for the individual to conform their lives to God (as created), most notably the belief in real presence of Christ in the eucharist seem to me to be absent from theology of most non-orthodox christians.

Perhaps I misunderstand, and would be glad to receive further explanation, but find your implied assertion that but for Vatican_II, catholics would still support burning dissenters to be somewhat beyond the pail. In no way will I defend or white-wash atrocities committed by any organization for whatever reason. You and I both know that the clear and present danger is not christian orthodoxy (including Roman Catholicism) but Secularism which is writing itself ever larger across current culture and political systems.

I'm sorry if my remarks appear "high-browed", but they are based upon fact. If you would provide the names of the documents, encyclicals of Popes, or other authoritative statements issued by the Roman Magisterium that show your points I'll be glad to read them and will openly admit any error in my remarks.


As to the burnings and other executions perpetrated by the Roman church: the layity (other that kings and nobles) never looked upon these with overwhelming sympathy and mass support. England turned from catholic to protestant in fairly short order during the five-year reign of Mary Tudor.

As with the Orthodox - the greatest evils have been instigated and perpetrated by the clergy. So I should have been more careful with my paint brush.

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

What do you mean, sir?

Goedel showed that all closed systems depend on something outside them (ie faith or assumption).

Syllogism:

1. All non-trivial computational systems are incomplete
2. The universe is a non-trivial computational system
3. Therefore, the universe is incomplete

Hence, the universe depends on something outside itself.

[touchring]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

This is nothing new... been going on since the 80s, just that nobody ever stood up and got heard until now. It's easy for central gov't to measure local gov't's compliance with the law since there are strict policies about population migration. Hospitals in the city and in the villages simply took care of it, claiming it was a stillbirth. The alternative of not meeting central gov't's "quota" is your job in a central planned economy, so it's effectively a forced retirement and public shaming regardless of age. Most people knows this to be the case and avoid hospitals entirely when they have their 2nd/3rd kid. Once the child is known to be alive, gov't will back-off and levy large fines.

People who haven't been traveling to China won't understand the wide divide between the city and rural classes. You won't find this happening with people in Shanghai. They are treated differently from "uncivilized" country bumpkins.

In any case, local governments will send the mob to go after the family if anyone tries to leak to the press or make a complaint. Also all your relatives, including your cousins will lose their government jobs.

I've known many Chinese people with 2nd and 3rd child, it's no big matter, just pay the fine and bribes. You'll be given first class treatment as a VIP by officials throughout the process.

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

People who haven't been traveling to China won't understand the wide divide between the city and rural classes. You won't find this happening with people in Shanghai. They are treated differently from "uncivilized" country bumpkins. In any case, local governments will send the mob to go after the family if anyone tries to leak to the press or make a complaint. Also all your relatives, including your cousins will lose their government jobs. I've known many Chinese people with 2nd and 3rd child, it's no big matter, just pay the fine and bribes. You'll be given first class treatment as a VIP by officials throughout the process.

So, what do you think the motives are behind this story?

[evangellydonut]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

So, what do you think the motives are behind this story?

I still think that this all has to do with the new leadership transition... and still foresee some kind of uprising that may not be as bloody as 1989 but more publicized...

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I still think that this all has to do with the new leadership transition... and still foresee some kind of uprising that may not be as bloody as 1989 but more publicized...

So, is this piece meant to help institigate an uprising, or was it simply a case of new leadership not taking the relevant bribes?