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  • Ending Property Tax

    homeowners, defending their self-interests, unwittingly become just another log in the FIRE . . .




    By MONICA DAVEY

    BISMARCK, N.D. — Since Californians shrank their property taxes more than three decades ago by passing Proposition 13, people around the nation have echoed their dismay over such levies, putting forth plans to even them, simplify them, cap them, slash them. In an election here on Tuesday, residents of North Dakota will consider a measure that reaches far beyond any of that — one that abolishes the property tax entirely.

    “I would like to be able to know that my home, no matter what happens to my income or my life, is not going to be taken away from me because I can’t pay a tax,” said Susan Beehler, one in a group of North Dakotans who have pressed for an amendment to the state’s Constitution to end the property tax. They argue that the tax is unpredictable, inconsistent, counter to the concept of property ownership and needless in a state that, thanks in part to wildly successful oil drilling, finds itself in the rare circumstance of carrying budget reserves.

    “When,” Ms. Beehler asked, “did we come to believe that government should get rich and we should get poor?”

    An unusual coalition of forces, including the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce and the state’s largest public employees’ unions, vehemently oppose the idea, arguing that such a ban would upend this quiet capital. Some big unanswered questions, the opponents say, include precisely how lawmakers would make up some $812 million in annual property tax revenue; what effect the change would have on hundreds of other state laws and regulations that allude to the more than century-old property tax; and what decisions would be left for North Dakota’s cities, counties and other governing boards if, say, they wanted to build a new school, hire more police, open a new park.

    “This is a plan without a plan,” said Andy Peterson, president and chairman of the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce, who acknowledged that property taxes have climbed in some parts of the state and that North Dakota’s political leaders need to tackle the issue. “But this solution is a little like giving a barber a razor-sharp butcher knife — and by the way, this barber is blind — and asking him or her to give you a haircut. You’ll get the job done, but you might be missing an ear or an eye.”

    Polls conducted last month and last week suggest that voters here overwhelmingly oppose the ballot measure to ban the property tax.

    Still, even if the measure here fails on Tuesday, the notion is picking up steam in some Republican circles in other states, including North Carolina, Texas and Pennsylvania.

    “No tax should have the power to leave you homeless,” said Jim Cox, a state representative in Pennsylvania who has proposed legislation to eliminate the school property tax in the state where, he said, such taxes have led to residents’ losing homes to sheriff’s sales, entering into reverse mortgages or simply moving away.

    In a way, North Dakota, though 48th in population among the states, was a logical place for such a movement to brew. While the state’s property tax collections per capita generally fall near the middle among states, the surge in oil production over the past five years, mainly in the western portion of the state, has seen its effects ripple through other parts of life here. The state’s coffers are full, overflowing even. Assessments of home values, especially in some areas, have risen drastically too.

    The political mood here, too, leans toward Republicans (who dominate Bismarck), small government, little intrusion and fiscal conservatism. Though opponents to the property tax here received a $12,000 donation in 2010 from the American Tax Reduction Movement, a sister group to the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, which grew out of California’s Proposition 13, members say the efforts here were largely organic, the result of unhappy property taxpayers getting fed up.

    “The same problem kept coming up,” said Charlene Nelson, a homemaker who became a leader of the effort to amend the Constitution, pointing to what she deems the underlying problem with the property tax. “It means all of us are renters — none of us are homeowners.”

    In recent years, state officials sent more money to localities to pay for schools in an effort to lower property tax bills. But opponents of the property tax said those efforts did not go nearly far enough, and collected nearly 30,000 signatures on petitions to bring the matter to the ballot.

    Those who want to keep the property tax have vastly outraised the opponents, gathering more than $500,000, campaign finance reports show. Though the question is among four on ballots here on Tuesday — including the highly contentious question of whether the University of North Dakota should give up its Fighting Sioux nickname — residents here said they had been deluged with information about the property tax measure, on signs, in radio talk shows and through months of debates in school gymnasiums and recreation halls in small towns like Edgeley and Bowman.

    For his part, Gov. Jack Dalrymple, a Republican, said he opposed the property tax ban. “It’s mind-boggling, really,” he said, in an interview, of the effects of such a ban. “We’d be changing everything, frankly.”

    The notion, he said, that the state has enough surplus to replace property taxes for localities around the state without raising other taxes is false. For starters, he said, much of the state’s benefits from the oil boom are already dedicated legally to particular funds and cannot simply be transferred to support schools, counties, towns, park districts and the like.

    Even if the ban fails, North Dakota lawmakers now seem all but certain to tackle broader solutions to the property tax question as early as next year.

    “I have to say that we totally understand that North Dakotans are very concerned about their property tax payments,” Mr. Dalrymple said. “You have a tension there, and people say this can’t keep on.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us...ml?_r=1&ref=us

  • #2
    Re: Ending Property Tax

    Originally posted by don View Post
    homeowners, defending their self-interests, unwittingly become just another log in the FIRE . .
    ...
    .....
    ..
    Those who want to keep the property tax have vastly outraised the opponents, gathering more than $500,000, campaign finance reports show. Though the question is among four on ballots here on Tuesday — including the highly contentious question of whether the University of North Dakota should give up its Fighting Sioux nickname — residents here said they had been deluged with information about the property tax measure, on signs, in radio talk shows and through months of debates in school gymnasiums and recreation halls in small towns like Edgeley and Bowman.

    For his part, Gov. Jack Dalrymple, a Republican, said he opposed the property tax ban. “It’s mind-boggling, really,” he said, in an interview, of the effects of such a ban. “We’d be changing everything, frankly.”

    The notion, he said, that the state has enough surplus to replace property taxes for localities around the state without raising other taxes is false. For starters, he said, much of the state’s benefits from the oil boom are already dedicated legally to particular funds and cannot simply be transferred to support schools, counties, towns, park districts and the like.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us...ml?_r=1&ref=us
    this one oughta be a beauty.

    typing as a former resident of NH, where property taxes arent cheap, but focused on with laser-like intensity - going back to the ole towne-meeting-style of local gov - you know, where if one wants a shiny new school, firetruck, a few more cops on the beat - old-fashioned stuff like that?

    one must show up at towne meeting AND RAISE YOUR HAND TO RAISE YOUR PROPERTY TAXES TO PAY FOR IT!

    now - WHY is this quaint but critically IMPORTANT element effective in keeping .gov costs in control??
    AND THE GOVERMENT IS A ***COST*** ITEM IN THE BUDGET ( vs an 'asset' )

    because it keeps The Citizenry Actively ENGAGED in THEIR Best Interests.

    other than that, i dont have much of an opinion...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ending Property Tax

      The money to run the country has got to come from somewhere . . . .
      If the gov't switches to an excessive VAT tax, you might have your home, but be left naked and starving.

      The big issue is wealth inequality. Better to focus on that now than the issue of property tax.
      raja
      Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ending Property Tax

        Originally posted by raja View Post
        The money to run the country has got to come from somewhere . . . .
        Lowering property taxes has resulted in more municipal borrowing in bond sales, raised the cost of housing, and increased costs to local businesses in increased fees and new fees to cover the shortfall.

        FIRE friendly? You betcha.

        I suggest re-visiting Hudson on this matter . . .

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ending Property Tax

          Originally posted by don View Post
          Lowering property taxes has resulted in more municipal borrowing in bond sales, raised the cost of housing, and increased costs to local businesses in increased fees and new fees to cover the shortfall.

          FIRE friendly? You betcha.

          I suggest re-visiting Hudson on this matter . . .
          Wage inflation "solves" a lot of problems.

          I'm moving to a city with among the highest property tax in the country (3%), but the rationale is that the public schools are among the best in the state and it's cheaper than private schooling.

          No property tax means even more burden on labor, who clearly can't afford it.

          Don't right - Hudson has been all over this issue for years and years. From the homeowner pov it's hard to blame them - wages are stagnant, cities revise property tax rates higher continuously to meet the budget from last year, rather than lower absolute amount paid and commodity price inflation squeezes them also.

          Policies to promote wage inflation to come.
          --ST (aka steveaustin2006)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ending Property Tax

            No property tax means even more burden on labor, who clearly can't afford it.
            Not just labor but local businesses as well. Of course homeowners should have a say on both property assessments and how the money is spent but the game is much too rigged in FIRE's favor for most constituencies to be effective even in the short run.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ending Property Tax

              Election results are in from North Dakota
              Below from the Fargo Forum newspaper.

              http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/364019/


              Published June 12, 2012, 10:59 PMProperty tax ban crushed at polls

              FARGO – North Dakota’s property tax revolt fizzled at the polls in primary election returns Tuesday night.By: Patrick Springer, INFORUM



              FARGO – North Dakota’s property tax revolt fizzled at the polls in primary election returns Tuesday night.
              As of 10:45 p.m., Measure 2, which sought to eliminate property taxes, is badly trailing, with 77 percent rejecting the proposal and 23 percent favoring. Those results are with 324 of the state’s 426 precincts reporting.
              The prospect that oil-rich North Dakota could be the first state in the nation to cast off property taxes attracted national attention, but a cool response from voters.
              “I think North Dakotans understand that government isn’t free,” said Andy Peterson, president of the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce and a spokesman for the Keep it Local coalition, which opposed Measure 2......

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ending Property Tax

                Originally posted by steveaustin2006 View Post
                Policies to promote wage inflation to come.
                I've not seen any evidence for this. In fact, we've seen wage deflation, even as capital gains have kept the GDP barely in positive territory. The continued deregulation of capital markets, current tax code, and expansion of lopsided trade deals should only exacerbate this.

                It will be a lumpy process. For instance, software engineers may see wage inflation whilst paralegals see wage deflation. But the overall trend will be as it has been, namely downward pressure on wages.

                I cannot foresee an increase in federal minimum wage over the next five years regardless of whom is elected. I cannot foresee a labor market met with in influx of laid off public sector workers in both Europe and the U.S. driving wage prices skyward. If anything, the wage flattening effects of neoliberal trade deals should accelerate unabated.

                No. I think policies to promote wage inflation will go nowhere. Policies to lower taxes on the highest income earners and strip entitlements from the middle class whilst trimming the public sector will gain bipartisan support.

                2013 will be a watershed year in this regard. It's always a gamble predicting what congress will do. But facing the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, the payroll tax cuts, extended unemployment benefits, and sequestration, I think well see the following.

                1) A more permanent reduction in payroll taxes offset by a very permanent reduction in SS benefits and Medicare to take effect for the under 40 crowd as to leave current seniors alone. Rock bottom interest rates will discourage saving. The under 40 generation will be the first to meet a retirement crisis since the Great Depression.

                2) A massive reduction in capital gains rates, the potential elimination of the estate tax, and a massive reduction in the number of tax brackets and the top marginal tax rate in exchange for the elimination of 'loopholes' including the mortgage interest and child deductions. A standard deduction will probably be high enough to offset the effect on the bottom quintile of income earners. The middle 60% will be left with the bill, as per usual.

                3) A massive reduction in corporate tax rates without closing many loopholes. One or two closures will be touted as a victory, but in the end, the share of Federal revenue coming in from corporate tax will continue to fall. It will do so at an accelerating rate.

                4) The beginning of a non-discretionary spending wind-down and the first true cuts in defense in many years. This will lead to layoffs in military and defense contracting towns. We might even get a couple of more Detroits out of it over the next couple of decades, as towns and cities that rely heavily on military spending go belly-up. The reduction in basic research funding will leave a lasting competitive disadvantage.

                5) Government will remain underfunded and run deficits. Cash-strapped states will cut municipal aid and lay off workforce. Municipal receivership and bankruptcy numbers will grow. Property tax rates will rise as a result. Layoffs in the public sector and private sector workplaces that primarily earn money through government contracts will accelerate. Median household income will continue to fall.

                6) World GDP growth, where it happens, will be tepid and generally not be in those countries typically defined as 1st world. Any growth there is will certainly not go to wage earners, but rather those who make money from economic rents. Wealth inequality will accelerate. Social tension will follow.

                7) Unemployment benefits will be slowly rather than sharply curtailed. Unemployment numbers go down as people fall off the rolls. The labor participation rate will continue to sink.

                8) At a smaller scale contract law will continue to be adjusted to eliminate pensions and other employment benefits while bankruptcy law will tighten to prevent the write off of private citizen debts over a greater number of debt classes. Financial innovation will find a way to expand consumer debt regardless.

                9) Home ownership rates will continue to drop. Regional and national home renting companies will emerge and grow. Rent prices will continue to increase and generations and friends will continue to move in under one roof to compensate.

                10) Increased commodity prices led by oil will put additional strain on middle class budgets. The migration of people into cities will accelerate as a result, leaving more ghost towns on the prairie.

                I can't see how wage inflation gets going in this scenario. Of course, prices will continue to go up. Particularly commodities. But the CPI ignores those.

                Eventually commodity price increases will seep into the CPI. Even if labor prices stay flat or go down (after all, there is still plenty of exploitable labor in the world), commodity price increases for raw materials and shipping are bound to show up in the cost of electronics and other CPI-fetish items. Heuristics can take the edge off of that.

                So in the end of the day, I think you're right that we'll see inflation. But I think it will serve simply to erode the purchasing power of wage earners. Wages will go down even as the dollar sinks.

                There is no political will for anything else to occur.
                Last edited by dcarrigg; June 13, 2012, 11:58 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ending Property Tax

                  Originally posted by don View Post
                  Lowering property taxes has resulted in more municipal borrowing in bond sales, raised the cost of housing, and increased costs to local businesses in increased fees and new fees to cover the shortfall.

                  FIRE friendly? You betcha.

                  I suggest re-visiting Hudson on this matter . . .
                  I'm not suggesting that property taxes should be lowered.
                  I'm saying that they're taking it out of our hides, one way or another.
                  raja
                  Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ending Property Tax

                    I agree with most of your prognostications.

                    #1, Hopefully a lowered tax rate, and make it harder to qualify for benefits, wealth/income testing and older age. Maybe increase the eligibility age 1 year every decade? I have to work until 69 for full benefits. 40 something would have to work to 70. Something has to be done about the people who will not be able to work
                    at 62, 63 ... 67 because they are too sick to work. Expanded disability?


                    #2 Hopefully we will be still have child tax credits and increased. Hopefully a glide path is established for mort deductions, interest deductability goes down 5% per year until it is no longer deductable. I would be willing if to pay a higher capital gains rate IF they were adjusted for inflation or maybe bracketed for the duration of the hold, 1 year 25%, 2 year 20% ... 10 yr 10%??. For income taxes, Hopefully the 10% bracket is perserved and the income bracket is moved up, so it applies to a larger portion of J6P income. Then you can let the other income brackets move up a bit.

                    #3 Hopefully might be a lowering of top marginal corporate rate and a closing of ALL loop holes. Maybe that will result in corporations not having to hire an army of
                    tax attorneys who provide no productivity increases, and might level the playing field between mega-corps and small companies.

                    Most of these suggestions probably go against the monied interests and will not be applied.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ending Property Tax

                      “No tax should have the power to leave you homeless,” said Jim Cox, a state representative in Pennsylvania who has proposed legislation to eliminate the school property tax in the state where, he said, such taxes have led to residents’ losing homes to sheriff’s sales, entering into reverse mortgages or simply moving away. "
                      This is so true!

                      They should have property tax on Stocks, Bonds, and other "property". Why do we have to pay taxes on basic necessities (food,shelter,air)?

                      How about property taxes on things we would like to discourage?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ending Property Tax

                        Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post

                        8) At a smaller scale contract law will continue to be adjusted to eliminate pensions and other employment benefits while bankruptcy law will tighten to prevent the write off of private citizen debts over a greater number of debt classes. Financial innovation will find a way to expand consumer debt regardless.
                        Re-jiggering the Bankruptcy Code to favor creditors against small businesses and middle class consumers has been in the making since 1997 leading up to the "Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1999", followed by the "Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2000" (which was essentially vetoed by Clinton) and ultimately passed in 2005 by large majorities of the House and Senate in the form of the following bill entitled: "The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (BAPCPA)".

                        The 2005 Act set up the legal framework to make consumer bankruptcies more difficult to file, including: fewer exemptions, means testing, converting certain Chapt. 7 filings (debt discharge) into Chapt 13 filings (debt payment plan), increased liability and risk to bankruptcy attorneys which increased the cost and complexity to debtors), reducing the amount of legal due process necessary for creditors to repossess cars and other personal property, allowing creditors to keep certain pre-bankruptcy preferential payments they received if less than $5k, etc., to name a few.

                        The 2005 Act also contained many favorable provisions for credit card companies to collect consumer debt from Chapter 7 debtors (provisions which the credit card industry spent more than $100 million lobbying for over the course of eight years).

                        The 2005 Act also (IMO) lays the groundwork for future legislative "tweeks" to the Act which would potentially allow Federal, State and Local government agencies to bifurcate their pension plan liabilities, and permit them to put the public Pension Plan through Chapter 9 bankruptcy without the government agency having to file also. There are, of course, many other interim ways to accomplish essentially the same thing (e.g., Wisconsin, City of San Jose, etc.), but ultimately the cleanest way will be through the Bankruptcy Code, which as of 2005 is teed-up and waiting.

                        Similar legislative traps for the unwary middle class (courtesy of crony-capitalism) are the Dodd-Frank bill and Obama-Care.
                        Last edited by think365; June 13, 2012, 04:31 PM. Reason: add content

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ending Property Tax

                          Originally posted by aaron View Post
                          This is so true!

                          They should have property tax on Stocks, Bonds, and other "property". Why do we have to pay taxes on basic necessities (food,shelter,air)?

                          How about property taxes on things we would like to discourage?

                          Please define we.

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