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  • Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

    I don't agree with the specific premise of this article - the complexities of US income tax filing has very little to do with the tax software companies but very much to do with other special interest's lobbying, but still has interesting information. Seriously, $4M a year lobbying by Intuit? It isn't nothing but isn't a lot compared to a billion dollar Presidential campaign, or even just health care lobbying itself.

    http://www.republicreport.org/2012/c...axes-fivemins/

    Here’s a chart of Intuit’s lobbying expenditures in Congress, courtesy of Open Secrets. I suspect that some of that nine million dollars of lobbying by that company since 2008 has gone to making it more annoying for you and me to file our taxes.

    Here’s what I mean.

    In some countries, the equivalent of their IRS sends citizens a form listing what they owe. In California, the state has a program called ReadyReturn that lets you do this for California state taxes. You sign it and send it back, and it takes a few minutes. But for most of us, this isn’t how it works. We gather our tax forms and various banking information, and spend the weekend facing a difficult bureaucratic set of forms, hoping we did it all correctly. Or we use a costly tax filing service or software.
    Candidate Barack Obama promised to end this nightmare. He said he would “dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes.” The IRS would use information it “already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return.” Experts, he said, estimated this would save 200 million total hours or work and $2 billion.

    You can file this under yet another broken campaign promise. And why? Who doesn’t like an idea that is so simple and convenient and just generally helpful? Well, the large software makers, for one. Intuit in fact lobbied incredibly hard to kill the California program Ready Return (complete with attacks from right-wing tax groups). Intuit wasn’t completely successful, but under their pressure, California budgeted only $10,000 to get the word out to residents about the program.

    And the risk to Intuit is real – here’s what Intuit said in its investor report, describing risks to its business model.

    “Our consumer tax business also faces significant competition from the public sector, where we face the risk of federal and state taxing authorities developing software or other systems to facilitate tax return preparation and electronic filing at no charge to taxpayers. These or similar programs may be introduced or expanded in the future, which may cause us to lose customers and revenue. For example, during tax season 2010, the federal government introduced a prepaid debit card program to facilitate the refund process. Our consumer and professional tax businesses provide this service as well.

    In other words, Intuit will lose a lot of money if the government makes it easier to file your taxes. So how did Intuit manage to prevent the implementation of Obama’s campaign promise? Here’s what Intuit had to say about its strategy.

    Although the Free File Alliance has kept the federal government from being a direct competitor to Intuit’s tax offerings, it has fostered additional online competition and may cause us to lose significant revenue opportunities
    . The current agreement with the Free File Alliance is scheduled to expire in October 2014. We anticipate that governmental encroachment at both the federal and state levels may present a continued competitive threat to our business for the foreseeable future.”

    What is the Free File Alliance? It’s a coalition of 14 software makers that have signed an agreement with the IRS to provide tax preparation software to the public. You see, the IRS was mandated to provide free online tax prep services to the public, so it outsourced this to existing commercial tax preparers. This agreement was first signed with the Bush administration IRS in 2002, renewed in 2005, and then renewed again under the Obama administration in November, 2009. Even today, despite the Obama campaign promise and demonstrated success around the world, the Free File Alliance indicates on its web page that “Treasury has indicated it does not want the IRS to enter into the tax software business.And Intuit said on its investor report that this alliance “has kept the federal government from being a direct competitor to Intuit’s tax offerings.”

    I’ve been emailing back and forth with White House liaison Jesse Lee over the past few days about this. I’ve asked why the administration has not implemented its campaign promise on pre-filed returns, and I included the information about the Free File Alliance. The agreement with the Free File Alliance does not in fact preclude the IRS from implementing a pre-filing program, so it’s possible this is in the works. Jesse Lee replied, “checking on this’” I’ve sent two follow-up emails, and I’ll let you know what else he says.

  • #2
    Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

    I remember Newt Gingrich and his Contract With America promising us that if we elected them, they'd give us a tax return so simple we could do it on a postcard. Once they got elected we never heard another thing about it.

    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

      The only reason that a state like CA has "simple" taxes is because they rely heavily on the federal return. Colorado is like this, to figure your state tax your federal return needs to be complete. You then take your AGI, add back in any exempt income that's not state exempt (like savings bond interest) and multiply by 4.x% and you're "done". Of course, it takes hours to get your AGI from the federal return, so the state taxes are really not simple. All that 1040 stuff is already bundled in.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

        Originally posted by shiny! View Post
        I remember Newt Gingrich and his Contract With America promising us that if we elected them, they'd give us a tax return so simple we could do it on a postcard. Once they got elected we never heard another thing about it.

        I hate doing taxes. These days it's like they are trying to make everyone become an accountant, and it seems I have it easy, I'm in Canada not the US. All the time, I see politicians talk about all the tax incentives that are going to help the poor for this and for that, but I'm guessing most of that isn't helping the poor because many are not smart enough to dig through the new tax codes (let alone the 4 foot high existing code), and take advantage of it.


        [wishful thinking] Why not just do a 20% (or whatever %) flat tax across all incomes, and auto deduct it from our paycheques each month? Then *poof* no more filling out income taxes, period... on top of killing all tax loop holes for once and for all! [/wishful thinking].


        Scene from movie "Day after Tomorrow" (Ice Age hits north america and some kids are stuck in Library of Congress trying to survive the cold. Guess which books they decide to burn first?)
        (skip to 1:13)
        Last edited by Adeptus; April 18, 2012, 02:00 PM.
        Warning: Network Engineer talking economics!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

          Originally posted by Adeptus View Post
          [wishful thinking] . . . Why not just do a 20% (or whatever %) flat tax across all incomes, and auto deduct it from our paycheques each month? Then *poof* no more filling out income taxes, period... on top of killing all tax loop holes for once and for all! [/wishful thinking].
          Won't work very well - actually it works really well - for the 10.9% of us who don't get paychecks. Plus there's the whole argument about progressivity . . .

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

            Originally posted by Adeptus View Post
            [wishful thinking] Why not just do a 20% (or whatever %) flat tax across all incomes, and auto deduct it from our paycheques each month? Then *poof* no more filling out income taxes, period... on top of killing all tax loop holes for once and for all! [/wishful thinking].
            I say scrap the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax, with some kind of protection for the poor. It won't be perfect and there will be injustices in it somewhere for someone, but we have injustices in the present code. At least a national sales tax would restore our freedom to live without government agents prying into every aspect of our lives.

            It'll never happen, though, because it would give the people too much power over government. An angry citizenry could go on a buying strike and bring the government to its knees. An income tax lets them take their cut off the top of our pay rather than off the bottom.




            Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

              Originally posted by shiny! View Post
              I say scrap the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax
              biggest problem with that: the lower end spends nearly all of its income just to survive
              the upper end doesnt need to, so would escape

              the other is that you dont really believe the gov would eliminate one tax for the other do you?

              we'll end up with both, pretty quick methinks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                Seriously, $4M a year lobbying by Intuit?...
                guess that (partly) explains why they charge so much for their stuff...

                i switched to the blockheads a few years back when turbotax bumped the price for the basic vers by 33%

                my other objection to intuit's was their planting a 'bug' in the code to keep it from being installed on a diff machine - and forcing the user to register online to activate (IIRC, not sure of the detail, just know it was a PITA) tho it wasnt the anti-sharing issue that bothered me, was how they 'infected' ones machine... and the hoops one had to go thru to remove it all completely - they got lots a bad press for it and dumped it, i think.

                also wont ever 'upgrade' quickbooks again - after having bought several versions and seeing the same issues/quirks carry forward from one vers to the next, why bother paying more every year, just to get some new bells n whistles, when the 8year old vers still works as quirky as the newest (and lots more expensive) vers?

                all that said, the blockheads stuff didnt exactly make things easy for the form 4797 and nobody on the helpline had a solution (or a clue) - wasnt until after spending appx 2 hours (and printing/wasting about 50pages worth of toner) that i discovered that the program (or maybe the operator) entered data in the wrong section of the form, thus causing a double-entry onto the 1040 (lines 13 & 14)

                other than that goof, all i can say is the 20bux for the basic vers is a good deal - but the deluxe/pro versions both of em put out are a waste of money, mostly loaded up with bells n whistles, boilerplate BS that one can get from the irs website (or maybe one might be better off with a pro's help if their sitch is that complicated)

                i still find it hilarous tho, that people with typical situations (and/or same sitch every year) pay hundreds to others to fill out the forms for them, when one of these programs can do it for 20bux or so (assuming one keeps sufficient and organized records) - and then - theres those that should otherwise file 1040ez's thinking they need help...

                but yeah - its simply outrageous that we have corporations such as intuit (3rd leg of the 'wintelit' conspiracy) lobbying congress to make things MORE difficult for us than they already are!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                  Originally posted by lektrode View Post
                  biggest problem with that: the lower end spends nearly all of its income just to survive
                  the upper end doesnt need to, so would escape

                  the other is that you dont really believe the gov would eliminate one tax for the other do you?

                  we'll end up with both, pretty quick methinks.
                  Methinks you're right.

                  Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                    so incredible how screwed up the world is. 100 years ago we had no income tax, the white fleet, panama canal, trusts busted; a high percentage of people were self reliant and had an internal moral compass. less than 1 in 100 americans took a government check, and we were well on the way to world power as the most dynamic country on earth.

                    the federal government existed only to protect the states from foreign powers, and protect state citizens from their state governments! corporations could not own real property in most states. state governments were supposed to exist to protect their citizens from abuses by concentrations of power, and from violent or financial crimes with victims.


                    now our freaking tax code is 4 times the length of all 7 harry potter books combined, only 85 million people out of 350mm even pay taxes, and over 1 in 4 of those people....... WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT - DOING NOTHING BUT HARASSING THE REST OF US!

                    any moron can vote, regardless of whether they contribute in any positive way to society whatsoever, even if they are completely on the dole, or have any idea about anything they are voting on!???? by my logic, if we are going to HAVE an income tax, only 64 million americans should be eligible to vote at all. no one taking a government paycheck (other than military) should be able to vote. no one taking more government benefits than they pay into the system should be able to vote at all. no one who cannot read and write english, AND identify certain objective facts about the candidates/issues should be able to vote.

                    i could go on forever, but i'm done. but the total and complete interference of government with every aspect of american life is so depressing i just can't believe it has been allowed to happen.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                      Originally posted by cbr View Post
                      so incredible how screwed up the world is. 100 years ago we had no income tax, the white fleet, panama canal, trusts busted; a high percentage of people were self reliant and had an internal moral compass. less than 1 in 100 americans took a government check, and we were well on the way to world power as the most dynamic country on earth.

                      the federal government existed only to protect the states from foreign powers, and protect state citizens from their state governments! corporations could not own real property in most states. state governments were supposed to exist to protect their citizens from abuses by concentrations of power, and from violent or financial crimes with victims.


                      now our freaking tax code is 4 times the length of all 7 harry potter books combined, only 85 million people out of 350mm even pay taxes, and over 1 in 4 of those people....... WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT - DOING NOTHING BUT HARASSING THE REST OF US!

                      any moron can vote, regardless of whether they contribute in any positive way to society whatsoever, even if they are completely on the dole, or have any idea about anything they are voting on!???? by my logic, if we are going to HAVE an income tax, only 64 million americans should be eligible to vote at all. no one taking a government paycheck (other than military) should be able to vote. no one taking more government benefits than they pay into the system should be able to vote at all. no one who cannot read and write english, AND identify certain objective facts about the candidates/issues should be able to vote.

                      i could go on forever, but i'm done. but the total and complete interference of government with every aspect of american life is so depressing i just can't believe it has been allowed to happen.
                      +1

                      what a coup it was for the TPTB to enact the income tax and create the federal reserve the same year. Competing interests all got what they wanted, more control over our finances.

                      Happy tax day! (yes, 2 days late).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        sales vs income tax

                        Kotlikoff has been pushing a national sales tax for years.

                        1) Efficient collection, no hours spent agnizing over deductions.

                        2) Vouchers for low income people, to keep it progressive. (you still have the problem if knowing how the low income people are)
                        One approach: give a $15k voucher to everyone annually. Poor buy necessities with the voucher. Wealthy go beyond the voucher and are
                        net tax payers. (universal voucher is not K's idea, but mine)

                        It is explained here:
                        http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...kotlikoff.html

                        Can't say I understand it completely, and I wonder about "black markets", but at least it's an alternative.

                        By the way, Hong Kong has a linear 15% tax rate, runs a surplus every year, and a 15 page tax code.


                        Is it any wonder
                        we are getting our economic butt kicked ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                          Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post
                          +1

                          what a coup it was for the TPTB to enact the income tax and create the federal reserve the same year. Competing interests all got what they wanted, more control over our finances.

                          and how it took just under a hundred years for the grandest experiment in history to unravel...

                          the most depressing aspect of it all? the drafters/signers of the Constitution knew this would happen, as evidenced by ben franklin's answer to the question of what kind of government it created: "A republic, madam, if you can keep it."

                          but the more prescient warning by ole tom jefferson has never been truer:

                          "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered..."

                          BTW - it was on this day in history that the battle of lexington and concord began...

                          makes it all the sadder somehow, our complacency today, doesnt it?

                          all the more interesting tho, that over 300 years later, at least one state can still claim victory over big government and its nanny state cheerleaders:

                          The Great State of New Hampshire manages just fine without em.
                          Last edited by lektrode; April 19, 2012, 02:49 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                            Originally posted by cbr View Post
                            so incredible how screwed up the world is. 100 years ago we had no income tax, the white fleet, panama canal, trusts busted; a high percentage of people were self reliant and had an internal moral compass. less than 1 in 100 americans took a government check, and we were well on the way to world power as the most dynamic country on earth.
                            And more American newspapers were in German than English. And huge swaths of the population were illiterate. And the black population was marginalized to sharecropping. And the recent Italian and Irish immigrants were spat on and denied opportunity. As were women. So much for a moral compass.

                            the federal government existed only to protect the states from foreign powers, and protect state citizens from their state governments! corporations could not own real property in most states. state governments were supposed to exist to protect their citizens from abuses by concentrations of power, and from violent or financial crimes with victims.
                            Teddy Roosevelt did do what you listed above. He also gave us the FDA. And the National Park system. The Federal Government under TR was far from laissez faire.

                            now our freaking tax code is 4 times the length of all 7 harry potter books combined, only 85 million people out of 350mm even pay taxes, and over 1 in 4 of those people....... WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT - DOING NOTHING BUT HARASSING THE REST OF US!
                            We also built the most expensive and ambitious engineering project mankind has ever undertaken in the Eisenhower Interstate System. Do you really feel that those DOT engineers are harassing you? Let's not even begin to account for the public health advances that have revolutionized life in the States.

                            any moron can vote, regardless of whether they contribute in any positive way to society whatsoever, even if they are completely on the dole, or have any idea about anything they are voting on!???? by my logic, if we are going to HAVE an income tax, only 64 million americans should be eligible to vote at all. no one taking a government paycheck (other than military) should be able to vote. no one taking more government benefits than they pay into the system should be able to vote at all. no one who cannot read and write english, AND identify certain objective facts about the candidates/issues should be able to vote.
                            Bringing back the ol' Jim Crow laws is extreme. As is disenfranchising all public sector workers. So the President should not vote? Policemen, teachers and firefighters should give up their civil rights for a pay check? That's deep-end talk right there.

                            Here's the old 1965 Alabama Literacy Test. See if you get a 100%.

                            i could go on forever, but i'm done. but the total and complete interference of government with every aspect of american life is so depressing i just can't believe it has been allowed to happen.
                            Short of taking taxes out of my payroll checks, the Federal government doesn't bother me much. Local government, well, there's another story.

                            It's easy to look back on old times with nostalgia. But the old-timers I knew who lived back then, God rest their souls, did not speak of it as paradise. If anything, most of them saw things turning around and getting better coming round to the 50s. They were split after that. (Of course, this is a group of New Englanders I'm talking about. Maybe views were different elsewhere).

                            In any event, every time has its struggles. We have plenty now. There were plenty then, too.

                            Perhaps I could ask this simple question to my libertarian friends:

                            What if Government is not the problem, but the problem that prevents utopia on Earth is very simply people?

                            If you find this to be plausible then the solution is very simply to do the best we have with the hand we're dealt, and to try to make the world a little bit more tolerable for our friends, neighbors and family.

                            How quickly we often forget that 2,000 year old (or older) lesson.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Why you can't do your taxes in 15 minutes

                              Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                              It's easy to look back on old times with nostalgia. But the old-timers I knew who lived back then, God rest their souls, did not speak of it as paradise. If anything, most of them saw things turning around and getting better coming round to the 50s. They were split after that. (Of course, this is a group of New Englanders I'm talking about. Maybe views were different elsewhere)....

                              it seems that it was sometime after the mid-late60's into the early 70's that the turnaround collapsed.

                              would also seem that 'creative interpretations' of the Constitution and it becoming a "living document" along with the political activist movement that bloomed during the vietnam era spawned most of the polarization that we suffer from today - that and the hijacking of the dems by the liberal-activist-left and the ensuing 'culture wars' giving rise to the religious-right's hijacking of the repubs - with the 'celebration of diversity' and 'multiculturalism' leading to further splintering of society along battle lines that the political class draws to keep the various 'industrial-complexes' overfunded (whether its the .mil sector, finance sector, .edu sector, welfare sector they is ALL gorging at the trough) - but other than that, would have to agree with you dc (and thanks for keeping the discussion honest big guy ;)

                              still say the answer to all this is TERM LIMITS for congress, end the lifetime gravy train for the political class, who currently has NO INCENTIVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING for The Rest of US

                              if they did, we'd have a balanced budget, an energy policy that didnt depend on war and a medical care delivery system that wasnt bankrupting us.

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