MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

[photon555]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

Well, I'm glad I can continue to read EJ's posts that he has already made on this thread. Perhaps iTulip could get a government grant to provide premium content for under-privileged members. I would sign up. I swear I'm under-privileged. You don't want a financial statement, do you?

[Thailandnotes]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

“Our principal addition to Kauznet’s insight lies in the discovery of a common global pattern to the movement of inequality-a pattern showing the existence, and power, of worldwide macroeconomics forces affecting the distribution of earnings within countries. This finding is subversive of work assuming that nation-states have a large degree of leeway in policy decisions affecting inequality. It turns out they don’t; the large forces affecting inequality inside most countries, worldwide, originate outside national frontiers…”

From Galbraith latest book
Official publication date is March 30

http://www.amazon.com/Inequality-Ins.../dp/019985565X

[metalman]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

“Our principal addition to Kauznet’s insight lies in the discovery of a common global pattern to the movement of inequality-a pattern showing the existence, and power, of worldwide macroeconomics forces affecting the distribution of earnings within countries. This finding is subversive of work assuming that nation-states have a large degree of leeway in policy decisions affecting inequality. It turns out they don’t; the large forces affecting inequality inside most countries, worldwide, originate outside national frontiers…”

From Galbraith latest book
Official publication date is March 30

http://www.amazon.com/Inequality-Ins.../dp/019985565X

you guys act like ej's ideas about mmt came out of nowhere.

how soon we forget.

from ej's interview of galbraith nov 2006...

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=4861#post4861

I think some of these guys are still living in the era of the gold standard when there was a mechanism that drove trade balances back to zero. Those do not exist anymore. Those kinds of views are tainted by a Bretton Woods view of the world. That discipline disappeared in the early 1980s. Perhaps the most delayed realization in the history of economics is that inflation disappeared in 1983. The Fed still operates like inflation is on some kind of hair-trigger mechanism, that if the Fed doesn't remain vigilant—always with a tightening bias—that the economy will fall into an inflationary cycle that will be very expensive to transition back out of. They behave as if the economy is dangerously unstable with respect to inflation, that the economy is ready to enter into a 1970s-style inflationary spiral at any time. But even during extended periods of loose monetary policy, inflation has remained tame. It hasn't happened and won't. The risk went away with the rise of the U.S. trade deficits.

interview here... http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...erview-Janszen

[photon555]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

“Our principal addition to Kauznet’s insight lies in the discovery of a common global pattern to the movement of inequality-a pattern showing the existence, and power, of worldwide macroeconomics forces affecting the distribution of earnings within countries. This finding is subversive of work assuming that nation-states have a large degree of leeway in policy decisions affecting inequality. It turns out they don’t; the large forces affecting inequality inside most countries, worldwide, originate outside national frontiers…”

From Galbraith latest book
Official publication date is March 30

http://www.amazon.com/Inequality-Ins.../dp/019985565X

Could these forces be human greed and stupidity? They apparently operate everwhere and at every level of every society. The privileged always want more, no matter how much they already have. The poor always want something for nothing, and are willing to empower others who promise to give it to them. Even the middle class is infected with the "free lunch" syndrome. It appears most people are at least willing, if not eager to empower/enrich themselves at the expense of others. In theology we call this tendency the fallen nature of mankind. There are no political structures or laws that can completely restrain it. Most societies prosper or decline as they succeed or fail at controlling the worst excesses of fallen human nature. This does not bode well for Western society as corruption and outright theft are becoming openly visible, even brazen.

New topic:

Did I read correctly earlier in the thread that only governments determine what is money? If so, I would take issue with that thesis. The example of the American dollar might be put forward as a justification for that thesis. However, I would counter that people accepted the dollar not because of law, but because of it's solid backing. That began to publicly change about 50 years ago beginning with the debasement of the coinage and the withdrawal of silver certificates, and that is when people began to increasingly diversify away from dollar-denominated savings. As a young person I remember being confused by some adults trying to explain to me why FRN's and debased coinage would lead to the destruction of the dollar. To be sure those adults were in the minority; one reason I dismissed their ideas as extreme. The point is that while governments will attempt to control what people use for money, they will succeed only so long as the official currency actually offers the benefits of real money. As the official currency becomes debased people begin to employ substitutes. Of course, social inertia creates a delay in the rejection of the official currency for most people, until some critical point is reached. At that point it's too late for most people to save their savings from destruction.

[lektrode]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

The decision to end the thread or take it behind the paywall is disheartening. Although Clue's tone may be slightly discourteous at times, he is a key contributor who makes this website worth a daily visit.
...
When Bagginz initiated this thread, I figured the discussion would follow along the lines of Yalman Onaran's recent column covering the replacement of private with public debt.

+1
and eye think what occurred, was a malfunctioned reposted/quote of EJ by yernamehear caused mr c1ue to disparage a quote of EJ's that c1ue thot had come from yernamehear - ynh fergot to 'close the quote bracket' HTML code and thus it appeared to EJ that c1ue had disparaged him, when it was ynh that c1ue was responding to.... is the way it appeared to happen by my read of the above.

(and i dont believe that mr c1ue would purposefully challenge mr j in such a disrespectful fashion, and in any event it was a case of misapprehension on the part of mr j... both parties whom i have the utmost respect for)

and/but its a good thing when fred edits the forums - EJ's good stuff _should_ be behind the paywall.

[jiimbergin]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

+1
and eye think what occurred, was a malfunctioned reposted/quote of EJ by yernamehear caused mr c1ue to disparage a quote of EJ's that c1ue thot had come from yernamehear - ynh fergot to 'close the quote bracket' HTML code and thus it appeared to EJ that c1ue had disparaged him, when it was ynh that c1ue was responding to.... is the way it appeared to happen by my read of the above.

(and i dont believe that mr c1ue would purposefully challenge mr j in such a disrespectful fashion, and in any event it was a case of misapprehension on the part of mr j... both parties whom i have the utmost respect for)

and/but its a good thing when fred edits the forums - EJ's good stuff _should_ be behind the paywall.

+1

[c1ue]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

Talk to them yourself for five or six years then report back to us.

If you define socialism as Soviet Communist, perhaps then the statement "Socialism died as a branch of legitimate economic theory over the past 30 years." would make sense, but from my perspective "socialist" economic theory is much more varied than what Lenin set up in the Soviet Union.

"Socialist" economic theory ranges from Soviet Union style centrally planned economies to China's government managed capitalism, to mixtures of public owned and private markets but with market allocation as in Scandinavia, to economies like Singapore.

As for socialist governments - again I wonder what precisely do you call the near 100 year reign of the Social Democrats in Sweden, the Red-Green coalition in Norway (Democratic socialism again), the Social Democrats in Finland with their 42% voting share, and the "3 Social" coalition in Denmark consisting of Social Democrats, Social Liberals, and the Socialist People's parties.

Also, you need to improve your tone and style of communication. I have noticed disrespectful communications with other members and we have received complaints. We don't like complaints.v

Fair enough.

Complaints in and of themselves are meaningless.

There have been numerous instances in the past where the complaints consisted primarily of those seeking to silence dissent.

It is unsurprising to me that my outspokenness draws complaints.

Absolutely I can and have been wrong.

At the same time I, unlike others, have never sought to censor nor have I ever advocated silencing those who have different opinions, nor have I sought refuge in authority when a disagreement occurs.

[metalman]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

If you define socialism as Soviet Communist, perhaps then the statement "Socialism died as a branch of legitimate economic theory over the past 30 years." would make sense, but from my perspective "socialist" economic theory is much more varied than what Lenin set up in the Soviet Union.

"Socialist" economic theory ranges from Soviet Union style centrally planned economies to China's government managed capitalism, to mixtures of public owned and private markets but with market allocation as in Scandinavia, to economies like Singapore.

As for socialist governments - again I wonder what precisely do you call the near 100 year reign of the Social Democrats in Sweden, the Red-Green coalition in Norway (Democratic socialism again), the Social Democrats in Finland with their 42% voting share, and the "3 Social" coalition in Denmark consisting of Social Democrats, Social Liberals, and the Socialist People's parties.



Fair enough.

Complaints in and of themselves are meaningless.

There have been numerous instances in the past where the complaints consisted primarily of those seeking to silence dissent.

It is unsurprising to me that my outspokenness draws complaints.

Absolutely I can and have been wrong.

At the same time I, unlike others, have never sought to censor nor have I ever advocated silencing those who have different opinions, nor have I sought refuge in authority when a disagreement occurs.

here we go again...

never seen dissent discouraged here... ever. but respect... how you argue... is rule #1.

argue with ej as jk & others do.

say.. 'i disagree' not 'that's ridiculous'

pls don't break the respect rule, c1ue... don't diss members & don't diss the boss. ok?

[c1ue]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

here we go again...

never seen dissent discouraged here... ever. but respect... how you argue... is rule #1.

argue with ej as jk & others do.

say.. 'i disagree' not 'that's ridiculous'

pls don't break the respect rule, c1ue... don't diss members & don't diss the boss. ok?

It was certainly not my intent to 'diss' anyone, but I do find it extremely interesting that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

There have been other conversations where the other party was more than a little rude, but there was no iTulip intervention perhaps because I did not complain (and I never do).

[jk]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

i don't actually recall arguing with ej about anything, though i do sometimes have questions. so i'm not sure what i'm an example of, metalman.

as for c1ue, he's young, a bit too sure of himself, and sometimes a little abrasive, but i never noticed anything really offensive in his posts.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

It was certainly not my intent to 'diss' anyone, but I do find it extremely interesting that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

There have been other conversations where the other party was more than a little rude, but there was no iTulip intervention perhaps because I did not complain (and I never do).

Could you elaborate please?

Your post comes across as an oblique attack on one or more members of the forum.

If you are referring to me, I'd strongly prefer a direct mention, rather than an indirect one.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I did raise the issue with "management".

I brought it to their attention and asked "Please have a look and monitor..."

This is the only forum I've been on where it has NOT degenerated into a downward spiral of some sort of intellectual duel of wits(or in the case of many other forums half wits).

My only frustration with you c!ue is not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it.

I ask some genuine questions:

What are you here for?

Is it to learn, teach, and/or win?

IF you're here to teach....I for one am happy to listen.....I just ask you to adapt your approach as I've stated before I think you come across as quite adversarial and it would appear I'm far from the only one who feels that way.

[Prazak]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

It was certainly not my intent to 'diss' anyone, but I do find it extremely interesting that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

There have been other conversations where the other party was more than a little rude, but there was no iTulip intervention perhaps because I did not complain (and I never do).

I was subjected recently to name-calling and sneering from another member, then mocked by a couple other members when I tried to reason with the young lad. In the absence of anyone monitoring the discussions, which is impractical and in my view undesirable, it will be those who complain who get the attention of the administrator. So I suppose the squeaky wheel will get the grease just by the nature of these boards.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

It is something like 260 bucks for a 6 months membership? Just don't go to starbucks 4 times a week and you will have it paid for.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

lektrode, I beg to differ. I most certainly would agree that C1ue would say those things to EJ. No doubt in my mind as the below post displays.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: MMT: an alternative to austerity - Michael Hudson

Hum, I have not witnessed the "silencing of dissent" on these boards. But then again I post primarily in the paid members forum and sometimes in the open forum here.


The most interesting part of your post above is that when EJ gives you constructive criticism, instead of addressing the main issue which is your "tone and style of communication" you address the "complaints" part.

I agree with you that most statements should not be reported to management and I will say that I have never once complained about you even though we have had many many arguments back on forth on these forums. I believe as you do and never seek to censor nor silence a dissenting voice from my own thoughts/beliefs.

I think you should have addressed your tone and style of communication that was the real problem in your post not that you dissented or veered away from what EJ believes is correct.

As for the socialist economies etc. In my opinion the reality is that no country practices pure socialism except for maybe Cuba/N.Korea who have both been starved and pushed out of the IMS or dollar trade system. It is also my opinion that no country practices pure capitalism without some elements of socialism.

But you have to breakdown EJ's argument. He states that there is no economic theory for socialism/communism and he is correct. Because all their theories rely for the most part on capitalism with more of a mix of socialism than say the US.

Socialism/communism is the most perverse system set up by man. It allows all the wealth to accumulate in the hands of 1 compared to the hands of many in capitalism. And at least capitalism has mechanisms to redistribute that wealth that is accumulated. Socialism does not have that mechanism except through revolution and a forceful take over of capital/wealth.

But all that does is instill another dictator who holds all the wealth.

Fidel Castro is said to be worth 1.5 billion dollars. All the wealth in Cuba is accumulated by Castro and his family/friends and no one else. The same cannot be said of America. The rest of the country lives in poverty and for some that is great. They do minimal work, have food, dance, sing etc etc and are completely content with life. For others they will die trying to leave the island.

Everyone has their own thoughts/beliefs like you do. From your thousands of posts here I know that you prefer socialism/communism to anything else at least it seems that way.

I just want people to be able to choose for themselves. If they want to live in a socialist country then they should move to a more socialist country instead of trying to exert their ideas and force on the US. That is what I have a problem with.

The US was built on a certain set of principles and ideas, most people in this country should adhere to them and stop trying to change what the country was founded on. If you do not believe in this countries ideas then anyone is welcome to move to France if they were to believe in France's ideas. That goes for any country.

It is a free world, go out and find your country that is most idyllic to you.