If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

[touchring]

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci...110-1n83t.html

During the hearing, photos of cardboard and plastic bins of electronic parts on the streets of Chinese cities flashed on large video screens as Thomas Sharpe, vice president of SMT, an independent distributor of electronic components, described visiting electronic component marketplaces in July 2008.
Sharpe said scrapped electronic parts were washed in rivers or left for the daily monsoon rains, dried on riverbanks and collected in bins, ready for counterfeit processing.
"Counterfeiting performed in Shantou [a Chinese city] was not regarded as IP theft or improper in any way," Sharpe said. "It was seen as a positive 'green initiative' for the repurposing of discarded electronic component material."

[stetts]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Touchring,
It isn't only laptops.
My 2007 Dodge dually rear axle bearings went out after only 60,000 miles. It's only job is to pull a 44' cargo gooseneck trailer on the highway. I have lots of scale tickets, so I know that axle was never loaded beyond 1000 lbs below its rated capacity. Yet, the made-in-china bearings spalled and failed very early. For that axle loading profile, I'd have expected half a million mile bearing life.
I do not think this is accidental. I suspect the original engineering specifications were just fine, but actual quality control at Dodge allows substandard materials to be routinely used. I don't believe this is confined to Dodge.
Consider the massive economical cost to any country that uses these Chinese products. It cost me over a thousand dollars in repairs since the entire differential had to be drained and inspected for small chips that may have migrated there. Multiply that by millions of other repairs due to early failures and add in the frustration and down time for machinery. Cheap products, aren't. The result is that China gets the money for quality products, delivers crap and the end user pays.
Take care. Stetts

[renewable]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Touchring,
It isn't only laptops.
My 2007 Dodge dually rear axle bearings went out after only 60,000 miles. It's only job is to pull a 44' cargo gooseneck trailer on the highway. I have lots of scale tickets, so I know that axle was never loaded beyond 1000 lbs below its rated capacity. Yet, the made-in-china bearings spalled and failed very early. For that axle loading profile, I'd have expected half a million mile bearing life.
I do not think this is accidental. I suspect the original engineering specifications were just fine, but actual quality control at Dodge allows substandard materials to be routinely used. I don't believe this is confined to Dodge.
Consider the massive economical cost to any country that uses these Chinese products. It cost me over a thousand dollars in repairs since the entire differential had to be drained and inspected for small chips that may have migrated there. Multiply that by millions of other repairs due to early failures and add in the frustration and down time for machinery. Cheap products, aren't. The result is that China gets the money for quality products, delivers crap and the end user pays.
Take care. Stetts

Dodge/Chrysler is an American company, with American managers, QA people and service technicians. Ultimately American managers sourced the bearings in your car, and their specification would have been defined by American QA people. The majority of the costs incurred by you as a result of your bearing failure will have gone to the American service technicians that stripped, examined and rebuilt your bearings - with a smaller portion going to the associated US managers, importers and other intermediaries involved in sourcing the parts. Chinese people received a relatively tiny portion of your money. All your costs were incurred as a result of you being supplied a product with shoddy components from this US company.

[stetts]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Renewable,
I agree with every point you made. And would suggest that each strengthens my basic point: For a very tiny investment in fake or substandard parts, a huge negative economic impact can be made on another country.
What a great way to weaken your opponent with almost no effort. In fact, with a very nice short-term dollar benefit to yourself. Maybe even a nice longer term benefit--why not consider placing fake parts into the opponent's military equipment supply chain, which would disable a weapon just when it's needed most. Naw, they'd never do that.....
http://thehill.com/news-by-subject/d...s-senators-say
Oh, never mind.
In summary, it's really the Quality Assurance guys at Chrysler that allow bearings with obviously defective (low quality) steel to be imported and installed. I reckon that so long as they go beyond warranty, what do they care. I care--I will never buy another Dodge.
Thanks for the input. Stetts

[chedir007]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Actually, this is an example of "stealth inflation" as EJ would say I believe.


A friend of mine purchased a 2012 Honda CIVIC and was mentioned just how "cheap" and "plasticky" everything felt.


Better to hold on to the cars and other big ticket items made 10 years ag0 and repair if possible.

[touchring]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Renewable,
I agree with every point you made. And would suggest that each strengthens my basic point: For a very tiny investment in fake or substandard parts, a huge negative economic impact can be made on another country.
What a great way to weaken your opponent with almost no effort. In fact, with a very nice short-term dollar benefit to yourself. Maybe even a nice longer term benefit--why not consider placing fake parts into the opponent's military equipment supply chain, which would disable a weapon just when it's needed most. Naw, they'd never do that.....
http://thehill.com/news-by-subject/d...s-senators-say
Oh, never mind.
In summary, it's really the Quality Assurance guys at Chrysler that allow bearings with obviously defective (low quality) steel to be imported and installed. I reckon that so long as they go beyond warranty, what do they care. I care--I will never buy another Dodge.
Thanks for the input. Stetts

I guess this explains why the US lost more aircraft in Libya despite not playing the major role.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

War doesn't always need to involve fighting. You can wage war through politics and commerce.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Known US airframe losses totaled just 1 F15 Strike Eagle due to aircraft malfunction and 1 Fire Scout drone due to enemy fire.

The US played a major and critical role.

Without US intelligence, surveillance, and refueling assets the UK and France would not have been able to support effective ops against Libya.

[renewable]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Renewable,
I agree with every point you made. And would suggest that each strengthens my basic point: For a very tiny investment in fake or substandard parts, a huge negative economic impact can be made on another country.
What a great way to weaken your opponent with almost no effort. In fact, with a very nice short-term dollar benefit to yourself. Maybe even a nice longer term benefit--why not consider placing fake parts into the opponent's military equipment supply chain, which would disable a weapon just when it's needed most. Naw, they'd never do that.....
http://thehill.com/news-by-subject/d...s-senators-say
Oh, never mind.
In summary, it's really the Quality Assurance guys at Chrysler that allow bearings with obviously defective (low quality) steel to be imported and installed. I reckon that so long as they go beyond warranty, what do they care. I care--I will never buy another Dodge.
Thanks for the input. Stetts

I see what you are saying; just a bit sceptical that's their strategy - seems a bit too short term for adherents of Sun Tzu.

It makes far more sense to do what they have been doing - attracting as much high tech / IP based manufacturing to China as possible in order to leverage their factories from the low end to the high end. My guess is that once as much hi tech manufacturing as they can get is there, and the maximum possible amount of scientific knowledge has been transferred from elderly western academics to bright young Asians, then China et al will strike.

EJ's recent book posits that China will not leapfrog the west in IP & technology because their lack of IP protection deters invention. The weak point in this theory is that this can very easily & rapidly be changed by a one party state - all they have to do is wait until Chinese tech/knowledge has reached the maximum possible by subsuming the west's, then simply enact new laws strictly protecting IP, copyright, etc. Hey presto - a society almost technologically equal to the west's, but with billions more people with a vested personal interest in moving it forward technologically. Things like this don't change overnight, but look how far China has moved towards capitalism in the past few decades. It seems to be obvious thing for the Chinese state to do.

[touchring]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

I see what you are saying; just a bit sceptical that's their strategy - seems a bit too short term for adherents of Sun Tzu.

It makes far more sense to do what they have been doing - attracting as much high tech / IP based manufacturing to China as possible in order to leverage their factories from the low end to the high end. My guess is that once as much hi tech manufacturing as they can get is there, and the maximum possible amount of scientific knowledge has been transferred from elderly western academics to bright young Asians, then China et al will strike.

EJ's recent book posits that China will not leapfrog the west in IP & technology because their lack of IP protection deters invention. The weak point in this theory is that this can very easily & rapidly be changed by a one party state - all they have to do is wait until Chinese tech/knowledge has reached the maximum possible by subsuming the west's, then simply enact new laws strictly protecting IP, copyright, etc. Hey presto - a society almost technologically equal to the west's, but with billions more people with a vested personal interest in moving it forward technologically. Things like this don't change overnight, but look how far China has moved towards capitalism in the past few decades. It seems to be obvious thing for the Chinese state to do.

China doesn't have to leapfrog the West in IP. Just look at how 20 million Chinese control the economies of 500 million people in South East Asia. Capitalism is about controlling resources and people. Let others do the innovation and hard work.

[c1ue]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

EJ's recent book posits that China will not leapfrog the west in IP & technology because their lack of IP protection deters invention.

From my point of view the obstacle to IP and technology development in China is far more cultural and economic stage related than legal.

Looking at the cell phone world, there are literally 50 'gray market' manufacturers in China for every manufacturer represented in the US market. You'd think that with this large mass of innovation and competition, you'd get something radically different and new.

But in fact this is untrue. While there are a huge number of varieties of cell phones made by these manufacturers, often using standard software like Android, the actual overall innovation outside of packaging is low.

My hypothesis for the reason for this is the 'hands-on' work required for innovation is tedious and risky, and the only people who undertake this in China are very young with nothing to lose. The moment they get enough experience and/or credentials, every single innovator then switches to management and seeks to hire a batch of new very young people to do carry on the process.

The problem with this approach, and again assuming my hypothesis is correct, is that you both lose the medium/long term approach necessary to understand a given market segment, and that you lose continuity in the development flow.

The United States is interesting because a subject matter expert in any field can make a living pretty much forever.

COBOL programming, for which no new hardware has been developed for over a decade? no problem.

Artisanal hand crafted blades? no problem.

I'd bet there are still people making buggy whips, for that matter.

It is one of the consequences of being a wealthy and largely economically stable country. China in contrast there is so much money to be made just copying, why bother with innovation?

[renewable]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

From my point of view the obstacle to IP and technology development in China is far more cultural and economic stage related than legal.

Looking at the cell phone world, there are literally 50 'gray market' manufacturers in China for every manufacturer represented in the US market. You'd think that with this large mass of innovation and competition, you'd get something radically different and new.

But in fact this is untrue. While there are a huge number of varieties of cell phones made by these manufacturers, often using standard software like Android, the actual overall innovation outside of packaging is low.

My hypothesis for the reason for this is the 'hands-on' work required for innovation is tedious and risky, and the only people who undertake this in China are very young with nothing to lose. The moment they get enough experience and/or credentials, every single innovator then switches to management and seeks to hire a batch of new very young people to do carry on the process.

The problem with this approach, and again assuming my hypothesis is correct, is that you both lose the medium/long term approach necessary to understand a given market segment, and that you lose continuity in the development flow.

The Japanese started out by copying western technology. They then developed Kaizan (itself based on US practices) and ended up producing lots of high end and innovative manufacturing products. They changed and caught up with the west with their ability to innovate, by implementing the model of lots of small incremental improvements, rather than the west's 'leaps' forward.

The Mandarin internet will at some stage rival the English internet, if the numbers of Chinese users can exploit the network effect to make it 'better' than the largely US based English internet, then there is massive potential for rapid knowledge improvement - possibly even new models of fostering innovation.

I don't know enough about China to comment on your hypothesis, but at the risk of sounding repetitive the advantage of a one party state is that policies can be changed quickly and without opposition. Any changes necessary to foster innovation can be implemented rapidly once the party leaders feel that sufficient knowledge transfer to the east has occurred.

[c1ue]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

The Japanese started out by copying western technology. They then developed Kaizan (itself based on US practices) and ended up producing lots of high end and innovative manufacturing products. They changed and caught up with the west with their ability to innovate, by implementing the model of lots of small incremental improvements, rather than the west's 'leaps' forward.

So how well is Japanese semiconductor, internet, and computer innovation progressing?

It is noteworthy that the improvements you note seem to primarily lie in the areas of large ticket manufactured consumer products like automobiles, which in turn can significantly be laid at the feet of a weak yen.

In the fields I note at the top, the Japanese are big players on the supply side - providing raw silicon wafers for example, but by and large are laggards in terms of providing technology.

Cell phones are another example: despite having a huge and thriving internal market which incorporated 1.5G data capabilities a decade before the US, Japanese cell phone makers are now a full 2 generations (5 years) behind their world competitive counterparts.

[renewable]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

So how well is Japanese semiconductor, internet, and computer innovation progressing?

It is noteworthy that the improvements you note seem to primarily lie in the areas of large ticket manufactured consumer products like automobiles, which in turn can significantly be laid at the feet of a weak yen.

In the fields I note at the top, the Japanese are big players on the supply side - providing raw silicon wafers for example, but by and large are laggards in terms of providing technology.

Cell phones are another example: despite having a huge and thriving internal market which incorporated 1.5G data capabilities a decade before the US, Japanese cell phone makers are now a full 2 generations (5 years) behind their world competitive counterparts.

That the Japanese didn't quite catch up with the west (fractionally in a few areas) does not preclude a vastly larger command economy from doing so. Japan has less than half of the US' population. China has nearly 5 times the US' population - potentially a fearsome network effect.

Remember the walkman? I'd argue that the very hierarchical Japanese should be culturally much less innovative than competitive Chinese or Americans, yet they came extremely close.

[touchring]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

That the Japanese didn't quite catch up with the west (fractionally in a few areas) does not preclude a vastly larger command economy from doing so. Japan has less than half of the US' population. China has nearly 5 times the US' population - potentially a fearsome network effect.

Remember the walkman? I'd argue that the very hierarchical Japanese should be culturally much less innovative than competitive Chinese or Americans, yet they came extremely close.

You're right. Chinese culture is totally different from Japanese. Japanese are conformists and disciplined whereas Chinese are more individualistic and rebellious if you can call that.

[Techdread]

Re: If you wondered why laptops and TV you buy today can breakdown in days or weeks even when brand new.

Are you sure about that, Sharp make very good Android phones.

Japan is also world leader's in Robotics.