Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

[Thailandnotes]

After Irene, FEMA facing a disaster of its own...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...MoJ_story.html

Kunstler reports on Irene

The same creeping nausea that followed the CNN 'all clear' sign in New Orleans six years ago happened again yesterday. Anderson Cooper seemed a little peeved that the lights didn't go out in Manhattan, but then the remnants of Hurricane Irene stomped up the Hudson Valley and stalled a while and commenced to rip apart the Catskills, the eastern Adirondacks, the Mohawk and upper Hudson valleys, and then almost all of Vermont, not to mention New Hampshire and western Massachusetts, and I can't even tell you much about whatever's going on in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Delaware, and Maryland this morning. Connecticut, Long Island, and Rhode Island are in there somewhere, and surely there's more than a few things out of place in North Carolina.

This is nowhere near Katrina's death toll of over 1800 souls, but the damage to scores of towns, businesses, houses, and basic civic armature is going to be very impressive as the news filters in later this week and the disaster is still very much ongoing Monday, even with the sun shining bright. Towns all over Vermont and New Hampshire are still drowning. The Hudson River is still on the rise. The Mohawk River is at a 500-year flood stage and is about to wipe the old city center of Schenectady, New York, off the map. Bridges, dams, and roads are gone over a region at least as big as the Gulf Coast splatter-trail of Katrina.

That story is still developing. A lot of people will not be able to get around for a long, long time, especially in Vermont and New Hampshire, where the rugged terrain only allows for a few major roads that go anywhere. Even the bridges that were not entirely washed away may have to be inspected before people are allowed to drive over them, and some of these bridges may be structurally shot even if they look superficially okay. There are a lot of them. If you live in a flat state, you may have no idea...

www.kunstler.com

[jiimbergin]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

My wife and I are involved with a diasater relief organization (NC Baptist Men (and many many women)). There are many many teams in place providing feeding, mud outs, chainsaw work, tarping roofs, temporary child care etc. We have 10,000 volunteers. We can feed in 5 feeding units, 30,000 meals a day. Today they provided 12,000 meals. We already have an operation in place in Vermont from prior problems. When NC's problems settle down (we are not as bad as the North East), I am sure more teams will be sent there.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

That's fabulous. Instant responses, such as tarping roofs to prevent further damage, can only come from local or semi-local people. Bridge repair and other big stuff is the domain of government. The closing of a bridge where my wife and I have a home in the eastern seaboard of Virginia can change a one-hour commute to eight, effectively meaning you're unemployed.

[BK]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

Consider that FEMA had already approved to spend $1,600,000,000 in Vermont because of storm flooding that occurred last Spring. Keep in mind that the Population of Vermont is 600,000-700,000. In early August, I was having lunch at the Warren-Vt General Store and was surprised to see two FEMA employees also enjoying lunch. Thats when I realized all the Road work that I had encounter was being paid for with FEMA Money (I mean hard earned money from Tax Payers).
The Flooding and Damage that result from Irene dwarfs the damage that was done in the Spring of 2011. The Socialization of risk is very quickly bankrupting our futures and so few people can see it.
How many Billions will it take for Vermont to recover from Irene?

PS: I love Vermont - but, I'm not sure we the United States can afford it, perhaps we should shut it down......it would be cheaper.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

More than a dozen towns are comletely cut off.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

PS: I love Vermont - but, I'm not sure we the United States can afford it, perhaps we should shut it down......it would be cheaper.

Really?

[leegs]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

Consider that FEMA had already approved to spend $1,600,000,000 in Vermont because of storm flooding that occurred last Spring. Keep in mind that the Population of Vermont is 600,000-700,000. In early August, I was having lunch at the Warren-Vt General Store and was surprised to see two FEMA employees also enjoying lunch. Thats when I realized all the Road work that I had encounter was being paid for with FEMA Money (I mean hard earned money from Tax Payers).
The Flooding and Damage that result from Irene dwarfs the damage that was done in the Spring of 2011. The Socialization of risk is very quickly bankrupting our futures and so few people can see it.
How many Billions will it take for Vermont to recover from Irene?

PS: I love Vermont - but, I'm not sure we the United States can afford it, perhaps we should shut it down......it would be cheaper.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I hope so, but I'm afraid you're not.

Just wondering, do you have car (collision or comprehensiv) insurance, or insurance on your house or other property?

FWIW, socialization of risk of natural disaster is something I'm happy to help fund. I don't think that the cost of natural disasters, much less the 'socialization' of such cost, is a primary factor in the bankrupting of our futures, although a citizen of northern Japan might beg to differ. I also think that the implicit comparison to socialization of risk in the financial sphere is off base.

[Sutter Cane]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

The Socialization of risk is very quickly bankrupting our futures and so few people can see it.
How many Billions will it take for Vermont to recover from Irene?

PS: I love Vermont - but, I'm not sure we the United States can afford it, perhaps we should shut it down......it would be cheaper.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, either.

Vermont has suffered catastrophic flooding in the past.

Towns and states used to have to handle disasters themselves, but the flooding in 1927 was beyond their capability. Vermont had to turn to the Federal Government:

Before the flood of 1927, towns were responsible financially for repairs to bridges and roads; after the flood, the state became more centralized and responsible fiscally (passing an $8.5 million bond issue). As Vermont Governor Weeks said, in November of 1927, “Bridges and highways are no longer built and maintained principally for the good and convenience of the people of the town where they are located, but for the good and convenience of the people of our entire State.” (Hand, p. 340) The state also passed an income tax in 1931 and established a system of highways. Thus the flood of 1927 changed the way transportation was to be developed in the state. The town by town system could not cope with devastation of this magnitude. The state voted a loan of $300,000 to the St. Johnsbury and the Lake Champlain Railroad to reconstruct its line. “As to specific recovery activities, the decision to reconstruct Vermont’s highway system with hard surfaced roads ushered the motor vehicle age into Vermont considerably earlier than it would otherwise have come.” (Hand, p. 338)

Governor John W. Weeks of Vermont addressed the General Assembly on November 30, 1927 and asked for 8.5 million dollars for the recovery. “This is an extraordinarily large sum and so requires extraordinary measures to raise it. However, our roads and bridges must be re-established. Our state departments and institutions must be restored. Without these our State as such cannot function. I can see but one practical way of raising this sum, namely, our State must issue its bonds on the best possible terms.” (Hand, p. 340) Governor Weeks did oversee flood repairs and was re-elected in 1928 to overturn the one term tradition that had been in place since 1841.

“Contrary to popular belief, Vermont did accept federal money to help it rebuild after the flood… Vermont’s congressional delegation asked for and received more than $2.5 million to repair highways and bridges within Vermont.” (Doyle, p. 182, see Congressional appeal on this web site) Vermont also accepted federal dollars to build dams at East Barre, Middlesex, and Waterbury. These dams were built by the Civilian Conservation Corps and the Army Corps of Engineers (federal entities). As Vermont historian Samuel B. Hand wrote, “…the most significant recovery efforts were planned and administered by State government and financed by a combination of federal and state revenues.” (Hand, p. 338)

As much as libertarians would like to deny it, there is a place for government in society. Even the dreaded "big government," because sometimes big problems require big government. It does not excuse corruption and incompetence in government to suggest that there are valid reasons for it to exist.

[BK]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

Has anyone read James Grants book "Money of the Mind". The socialization of risk is what has corrupted our Banking system. When there is no personal or professional risk for a Banker then loans are made to riskier Bank Customers and this ultimately weakens our Banking system and our Money.

Isn't society weaken financially if Government steps in and repairs Communities to exactly the way they were prior to the disaster. Aren't there times where the Road was built poorly by the Town, the Road was placed near a river that routinely floods or other negligence. The more money we spend back stopping risk results in a weaker currency.

Yes - I love Vermont - its the jewel of New England.

[BK]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

I'm not saying Government has No Role in Disaster recovery. But, the Spring storms in Vermont are costing the US Treasury $1,600,000,000 and the Damage from Irene will have a price tag several times the cost of the Vermont Spring storms that "No one ever heard about".
This story is being repeated in States up and down the East Coast. This FEMA response of a massive wave of Money, is exactly what contributes to the massive wave of money sinking our economy.

Again, I'm not saying that there should be No Government response - isn't it possible to have a more measured response instead of an open check book - Until we spend our Money more carefully the Federal Reserve will continue to print....print ....print.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

1.6 billion divided by 600 thousand = 2,300 $ for every Vermont resident. I've had trouble finding those figures on line, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. (Link much appreciated.) Fema is spending gazillions of dollars rebuilding communities that faced disasters more than a decade ago.

Bureacracy is always suspect, but many disasters are so huge, so unfathomable, it's clear churches can't step up to the plate with helicopters and temporary bridges.

Zeitoun is a good read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitoun_%28book%29

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

Quote from Vermont radio station...

"Houses floating down mainstreet. Roofs in the middle of highways. Businesses falling into rivers."

[BK]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

Here is the FEMA Link - the $1.6 Billion is what was approved - http://www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=14734 - so perhaps it hasn't all been spent.

Again, I'm not advocating no Federal response to disasters -but, its the scale of response we get for every disaster (big and small) that hits is the Big One. Then 6 months later the Big One really hits and we have already spent a boat-load of money. The Blank check mentality is what leaves most people without $1,000 for an emergency and Voters want the US Treasury to act the same way ......it won't end well.
http://www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=14734

[dcarrigg]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

1.6 billion divided by 600 thousand = 2,300 $ for every Vermont resident. I've had trouble finding those figures on line, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. (Link much appreciated.) Fema is spending gazillions of dollars rebuilding communities that faced disasters more than a decade ago.

Bureacracy is always suspect, but many disasters are so huge, so unfathomable, it's clear churches can't step up to the plate with helicopters and temporary bridges.

Zeitoun is a good read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitoun_%28book%29

Hold on...


It's $1.6M, not $1.6B. That $1.6M is approved for wire transfer, but not yet obligated to specific projects. This means that the $1.6M is a 'cap' on disaster spending, not what will actually be spent. Where do you get the other 3 zeroes?

FEMA only spent $6B on Katrina. It will not spend 1/3 of that on VT.

FEMA actually requires a fair amount of paperwork (remember all of the complaints about people not being able to access the Deepwater Horizon or Katrina money?) so it is highly likely that not all of this will end up spent. People have to submit paperwork to the state, which has to check it for regulatory compliance and disburse funds. The state then has three days to make the wire transfer from the Treasury. FEMA then audits and typically makes the state return a portion that it deems to be improper. Access to the funds typically expires at the end of a contractual date.

Long story short; a figure close to $3 per capita looks to be about what will be spent as of now. As more applications come in, that number will rise, but to nowhere near a billion dollars. FEMA requested a TOTAL of $1.95B in disaster relief funding. They got $1B. They're not spending it all in VT.

[BK]

Re: Disaster Aid = Debt Ceiling Redux

I mis-read - thanks for catching my era.