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  • RE: It Will Only Get Worse

    as we know here on the 'tulip . . .

    What happens when the worst housing crash since the Great Depression gets worse?

    Deepest fall in new home sales ever



    There is little demand for new home sales because the public with weak incomes and an economy that is still struggling has little appetite for overpriced homes. Even if the appetite were there, the incomes are certainly not. The juice that kept the game going was debt. As we have seen with the debt ceiling bread and circus we might be reaching a limit in regards to what we can take on without adding on subsequent real growth. I know when the contraction started occurring some could not envision the correction lasting longer than a year or two. People have been conditioned to quick changes and have a hard time realizing that the housing market of the 2000s was a historical mania. That is it. It is done for a generation just like Tulip mania or any other mass delusion. The fact that home prices are now inching closer to early 2000 price levels simply does not jive with the religion many believe. During the Great Depression, new home sales fell 80 percent from peak to trough. In this crisis we have fallen 82 percent.

    The chart above is rather startling but makes sense given that we have 6 million homes lingering in the shadow inventory. The way banks are leaking out inventory we are bound to have a lost decade (or two) in our books. Unless something radically changes the policy is to bleed the productive economy for the ill-gotten gains of the big bankers running this country. This is why after trillions of dollars funneled to the banking sector little has been done in terms of boosting incomes or home prices. Where do you think the money went? It certainly didn’t go to adding jobs:



    This is a troubling chart. The civilian employment-population ratio is a better measure of employment success in our economy. We are now back to early 1980s levels. What is more troubling is the jump from the early 1950s on had the rise of two income households. The two main driving forces for this reversal are a poor economy and demographics. How can people look at these trends and think things will reverse? Even if things do change the demographic change is built into the system. Some point to wealthy immigrants as the catalyst for rising home prices but we are unable at the moment to provide quality jobs to the masses of the unemployed. Unless we find an age reversing pill this trend is sticking around for years. There are limits in life even though Hollywood and Wall Street would like to convince people otherwise.

    Bubble still going on in many U.S. areas

    The general collapse in home values has left many believing that the housing market has reached a trough simply by default. That may be the case in many states where home values never really had excessive bubbles yet many highly populated metro areas are still in significant bubbles. When these bubbles burst financial losses will be large yet again and you can expect the financial system to dig deep into the pockets of struggling Americans. What happens when these places pop as they will? Let us look at some of those overpriced regions:




    This data is current and you can see even after major price corrections these areas are overvalued. On both coasts, these bubbles still rage but California is still the leader in bubble metro areas. Folks are delusional thinking this is sustainable. These bubbles will pop. It can happen quickly or drag out for years. The above ratios are flat out unsustainable. Just take a look at the median home price to median income ratio. This will pop. In addition, many of these areas have high unemployment rates. Take a look at San Diego that nearly has a double-digit unemployment rate for the county.

    What is important to also note is that these prices have already fallen by 10, 20, and even 30 percent in many cases from their peak. They are still inflated. The shadow inventory in these markets is dramatic. At a certain point reality will need to be faced and when that day comes, you will see prices moving lower. That is the only way out or we can grow household incomes and double it in the next few years but do you see that happening? I would love to see evidence that our financial system would reward productive behavior instead of putting all the money into the hands of the banking system that largely operates like a vampire on the productive side of the economy. We do need banks, but investment banks should be spun off and allowed to make their own non-systemic destabilizing bets. At the moment the financial system is simply looking for ways to pilfer funds from the majority of Americans. If they could find a method to profit from slamming Americans lower they would do it. Many a hedge fund made billions by gambling and speculating on the failure of American homeowners.

    So what happens next? It is an interesting side note that during the typically hot summer selling season with mortgage rates at all-time lows that home sales are weak. Why? At a certain point it boils down to income. Many that have their brains cleansed by the 1984 media machine think that just because many people have luxury cars or dress a certain way they are wealthy. They are not. The data does not back up this phony studio set and many are starting to realize that the financial Wizard of Oz is more smoke and mirrors than anything real or tangible. Certainly there is tremendous wealth in the country but not enough to support entire metro areas with inflated prices. Just because the mainstream press isn’t reporting this next bubble bursting doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Heck, they didn’t start talking about the most obvious housing bubble in generations until it blew up in their face.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/w...reas-will-pop/

  • #2
    Re: It Will Only Get Worse

    Thank you for posting this Don. The gentleman is talking about a verboten subject: reality.

    As an aside, instead of "eat the rich", perhaps what's needed is "eat the banksters"?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: It Will Only Get Worse

      Originally posted by Raz View Post
      Thank you for posting this Don. The gentleman is talking about a verboten subject: reality.

      As an aside, instead of "eat the rich", perhaps what's needed is "eat the banksters"?
      "Eating" the banksters is a good start but not enough. The rich have gobbled up too large a chunk of wealth of the country not to get nibbled on too, which is why I keep harping on wealth distribution since it gives a clearer picture. No need to cry rivers for them, they'll still have more cash than they actually know what to do with even if half, over half really, of it got taken away.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: It Will Only Get Worse

        Lets add Public Sector Unions to the feast. Communities on in the Northeast and West Coast are breaking under the weight of outrageous labor costs for teachers, fire men, police, and administrators.
        Most of the people in these profession are good folks who work really hard - but, the unions were granted wages and benefits that aren't affordable for the Communities they serve.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: It Will Only Get Worse

          Originally posted by BK View Post
          Lets add Public Sector Unions to the feast. Communities on in the Northeast and West Coast are breaking under the weight of outrageous labor costs for teachers, fire men, police, and administrators.
          Most of the people in these profession are good folks who work really hard - but, the unions were granted wages and benefits that aren't affordable for the Communities they serve.
          No. Lowering people's wages and slashing benefits will not make things better, it will plunge those areas into an even deeper recession. Wages and benefits need to be higher OR cost of living needs to be lower.

          Instead of focusing on how much it costs to pay these people you should be looking at why things are so expensive. Pro tip: its due to FIRE and an incompetent government that misspends the states money.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: It Will Only Get Worse

            Perhaps you can explain that New Jersey needs to pay School Crossing Guards $30-$50 - per hour to cross children across the street. Yes - Crossing Guards are Unionized in New Jersey - in most cases you'll discover the School Crossing Guard has another Public Sector job or they are a Retiree receiving a Public Pension. The additional income increases their Pension Wage base and raises their Pension.

            Does anyone remember the good ole days when Responsible Children would handle School Crossing - but, children can't be Unionized because they work for Free.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: It Will Only Get Worse

              Originally posted by BK View Post
              Lets add Public Sector Unions to the feast. Communities on in the Northeast and West Coast are breaking under the weight of outrageous labor costs for teachers, fire men, police, and administrators.
              Most of the people in these profession are good folks who work really hard - but, the unions were granted wages and benefits that aren't affordable for the Communities they serve.
              Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
              No. Lowering people's wages and slashing benefits will not make things better, it will plunge those areas into an even deeper recession. Wages and benefits need to be higher OR cost of living needs to be lower.

              Instead of focusing on how much it costs to pay these people you should be looking at why things are so expensive. Pro tip: its due to FIRE and an incompetent government that misspends the states money.
              It's always makes me wonder what is the right way to do things? What is the solution to our budget (not sociatal) problems? It occurs to me that there was a time in the not too distant past when many states, my own as an example, did not have a sales tax. Did not have an income tax. Did not run legalized betting, twice daily, twice weekly, pick 5, pick 6, as well as a multitude of scratch and win scams. Where did all that money go? Why will the future not be the same as the past?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                Originally posted by BK View Post
                Perhaps you can explain that New Jersey needs to pay School Crossing Guards $30-$50 - per hour to cross children across the street.
                Look at the cost of living in NJ. If its high then what do you expect? You can't seriously expect people to work for less than what it costs to live you know that right?

                The worker doesn't set the cost of living and workers hold a teeny tiny fraction of wealth in this country so I don't even know why you're even trying to squeeze blood out of that figurative stone.

                You can slash all workers wages by half or more and it would accomplish nothing. Well except to plunge us into a depression even worse than the Great Depression since that would ruin the local and state economies quite thoroughly since no one would have cash to spend nor access to credit since their wages were in the gutter, for the few that would still have jobs that is.

                e: I'm sure there are unions that are bad and abuse the situation and laws, but they're chump change. FIRE gots you focused on the pissant stuff (crossing guards and firemen's wages are destroying the states? really? Why don't you look at how much CEO's make or how much the banksters pull in?) while rape the country for trillions. Enjoy voting against your own interests I guess. Its going be awful watching the country repeat the same old mistakes of the Gilded Age and then have to spend a decade or 3 relearning what was paid for dearly during Progressive Era around the start of the last century.
                Last edited by mesyn191; August 19, 2011, 02:28 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                  Originally posted by cjppjc View Post
                  It's always makes me wonder what is the right way to do things? What is the solution to our budget (not sociatal) problems? It occurs to me that there was a time in the not too distant past when many states, my own as an example, did not have a sales tax. Did not have an income tax. Did not run legalized betting, twice daily, twice weekly, pick 5, pick 6, as well as a multitude of scratch and win scams. Where did all that money go? Why will the future not be the same as the past?
                  Its a combo of "starve the beast" politics (which mostly benefit the rich, not the poor or shrinking middle class despite cuts presented as helping such groups) that people like BK fall for and incredible incompetence and maybe some serious corruption. The state is being starved of cash since people keep voting for lower and lower taxes while cost of living goes up and wages drop or stagnate.

                  Then you get more politicians who get into power who say the government isn't working, because the previous administration or themselves personally broke it, and so the solution is to cut more taxes and deregulate some more. Imagine that happening for several decades straight, starting with at least Regan but continuing all the way up until now and into the future and you end up with a situation like we've currently got.

                  It really is amazing. BK knows the wealth distribution is so far out of whack its unbelieveable. He knows workers have very little wealth and actually even carry most of the debt in the country. The charts have been posted so much they've become cliche almost yet the data is never refuted. Its always unions this, cut taxes that. Such is the power of FIRE's hold on our government and media that people will continually vote against their own interests.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                    Mesyn191,


                    Is there any chance that you or some one in your family has a Public sector Job?

                    Why is New Jersey - so expensive - its fairly complicated - perhaps I can explain.

                    1. New Jersey - has two main growth engines (1) Wall Street - lots of New Jersey cities are 1 hour - 2 hours to Wall Street. (2) Pharma - JandJ- is head quartered here and lots of others.
                    These growth engines get a direct feed from FIRE. Wall Street is FIRE and Pharm feeds off Insurance and Government Money Flows.

                    These growth Engines lead to corrupt Politicians granting higher and higher benefit packages to Public Employees Unions - this lead to higher and higher property taxes. Its very difficult to be a small business in New Jersey because of the Tax overhead.

                    Until the costs of Public Employees gets reigned in NewJersey will be an impossible place to have a small business or to own property.

                    The facts are that the Budget of every Community is approximately 70-80% Wages and Healthcare and Retirement expenses. The Cutting will not reduce Taxes it will merely allow Communities to keep taxes flat - going back just isn't possible.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                      Originally posted by BK View Post
                      Mesyn191,

                      Is there any chance that you or some one in your family has a Public sector Job?
                      I have 1 family member who works for the government in another state, but I haven't seen him in over a decade, he is on the other side of the country.

                      And I'm not necessarily all gung ho pro public sector either. If you notice my comments apply for union and non union jobs of all types.

                      Originally posted by BK View Post
                      The Cutting will not reduce Taxes it will merely allow Communities to keep taxes flat - going back just isn't possible.
                      You forgot to mention workers, public or otherwise, spend nearly all of their earnings locally. So if you cut their wages tax reciepts will go down accordingly as more businesses lose that money and go under and the state will be forced to either raise or create new taxes, or do further cuts which will diminish the economy even more, or default which would probably be prevented by a bailout.

                      Which would of course be funded by the taxpayers anyways.

                      You also forgot to mention how the politicians mismanaged the retirement funds, like they have in other states often by buying risky assets that didn't meet expectations like MBS and such, which has helped to create a budget crisis which they then blame the workers for since otherwise they'd have to take the blame.

                      The unions were effectively broken in the 70's and 80's, they have very little power left and indeed have been screwed over by even the democrats lately who are unafraid of them because of that.

                      I see you still won't even consider lowering healthcare costs, which would not only drastically unburden the state funds but the whole state economy too. And you totally ignored the wealth disparity issue while you were at it. Just incredible.
                      Last edited by mesyn191; August 19, 2011, 03:18 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                        Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                        I have 1 family member who works for the government in another state, but I haven't seen him in over a decade, he is on the other side of the country.


                        You forgot to mention workers, public or otherwise, spend nearly all of their earnings locally. So if you cut their wages tax reciepts will go down accordingly as more businesses lose that money and go under and the state will be forced to either raise or create new taxes, or do further cuts which will diminish the economy even more, or default which would probably be prevented by a bailout.

                        Which would of course be funded by the taxpayers anyways.

                        You also forgot to mention how the politicians mismanaged the retirement funds, like they have in other states often by buying risky assets that didn't meet expectations like MBS and such, which has helped to create a budget crisis when which they then blame the workers for since otherwise they'd have to take the blame.

                        The unions were effectively broken in the 70's and 80's, they have very little power left and indeed have been screwed over by even the democrats lately who are unafraid of them because of that.
                        Exactly - High Union Wages lead to lots of Money in the hands of local Union Employees- this leads to higher and higher costs of living for everyone -

                        Unions were broken in the 70s and 80s - come on. Have you looked at the salary increases that Public Union Employees received in states like Massachusetts and New Jersey in the 1990s and into the 2000s. Most were receiving 1-3% every year - and you are a ituliper - so I'm sure your realize the power of compounding...

                        Again, part of the problem from where I live is the out of control State and local spending.

                        I have a former Grass Air field near me - that decided to close in 2005 because the County raised its property Taxes from $15,000 - $35,000 per year. Next - the County and local towns buy the Grass Air field for $2.4 Million - effectively taking it off the Tax Rolls. Now , the Towns are developing the site for recreation to the tune of $1Million to $3Million. Good news is that is will mean more lawn mowing work for Unionized Public sector workers. Can anyone in local Government do Math???

                        Our Government sector is sucking up extra capital that could be deployed to other areas of the economy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                          Originally posted by BK View Post
                          Exactly - High Union Wages lead to lots of Money in the hands of local Union Employees- this leads to higher and higher costs of living for everyone -
                          Wage inflation is a different problem if that is what you're hinting at. It is certainly not something that is occurring now. Wages have been stagnant or declining.


                          But the fact is workers do spend all their cash locally and this is beneficial and even necessary for the economy. This is also why slashing welfare is a net negative for the economy since that money is recycled back into the businesses every month.

                          Originally posted by BK View Post
                          Unions were broken in the 70s and 80s - come on. Have you looked at the salary increases that Public Union Employees received in states like Massachusetts and New Jersey in the 1990s and into the 2000s. Most were receiving 1-3% every year - and you are a ituliper - so I'm sure your realize the power of compounding...
                          1-3%/yr isn't even keeping up with the rate of inflation... That means their wages were effectively being reduced just like everyone elses', just perhaps less so, since many people I know haven't even gotten a 1% raise in the last 2 years. Note on the above chart that productivity has been rising while wages are cut. This means people are working harder for less, so the whole "lazy union worker" meme is BS. Are there lazy workers out there? Sure. In general? Nope, which is what that chart helps illustrate.

                          Originally posted by BK View Post
                          I have a former Grass Air field near me - that decided to close in 2005 because the County raised its property Taxes from $15,000 - $35,000 per year.
                          One of the bigger problems right now is that businesses can flee a state if that state tries to raise taxes. They hold the jobs (read: votes) and tax income hostage which is the cudgel they use to get their way. The corruption, either in the form of cash or sinecures, are the carrot. The state governments are usually kept weak so that even if someone who wants to really effect good changes is kept hamstrung and then eventually pushed out of office when fails to meet his goals, usually replaced by someone funded by pro FIRE interests.

                          Originally posted by BK View Post
                          Our Government sector is sucking up extra capital that could be deployed to other areas of the economy.
                          No FIRE is, but FIRE has got you focused on the government as the "enemy", an "enemy" that is the only straight forward means possible to subdue the FIRE economy BTW and put more wealth back in the hands of the worker.

                          The only other option would be massive protests and/or revolution to change the government a la the Arab Spring. But that is risky to say the least, and can still be co opted by monied interests or facists.
                          Last edited by mesyn191; August 19, 2011, 03:57 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                            The number of homes under construction is the fewest in 40 years. Just 413,000 homes are under construction, after accounting for seasonal factors. A decade ago, roughly 1.6 million homes were built.

                            http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...rts-july_n.htm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: It Will Only Get Worse

                              Mesyn191,
                              Lets get back to some facts I reported earlier - why does it make sense to pay crossing guards $50 and health benefits - how does that help my local community?

                              Re: Grass Airfield - they didn't flee to another location - they simply shut down the business. The business I'm sure was waning due to higher and higher fuel costs.

                              Mesyn - I'm well versed in the FIRE economy and how it works. I've read both of EJ books and I was even lucky enough to be a work colleague of his long-long ago. I completely understand the FIRE Economy. Did you read EJ article on the Growth of Government sector employment - it was very well done.

                              Regarding - 1-3% wage increases - Public sector employees and FIRE employees are they only employees who have seen their wages keep pace with inflation. lots of private sector (including white collar) have had their wages FLAT for 10-12 years!

                              We don't need a revolution - we need more Politicians like Christie - although I'm not convinced is making that much progress - it may just be a lot of hot air.

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