I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

[BillBoard]

Is this the economic collapse for this civilization?

What is the worst that will happen to the average jane or joe on the street?

Japan is going on 20 years and they are still going, what is to say the USA can't last another 50 years more?

[bagginz]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

Is this the economic collapse for this civilization?

What is the worst that will happen to the average jane or joe on the street?

Japan is going on 20 years and they are still going, what is to say the USA can't last another 50 years more?

Peak cheap oil for one:

Colin Campbell (in 2005) on the relationship of oil to banking, credit and the economy:

If you have time here's an excellent in depth interview series, again from the erudite Dr. Colin Campbell which gives an excellent overview:

[sunskyfan]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

This is a process of getting a generation who voted themselves an extravagant lifestyle in retirement to realize that their expectations are not going to be met. Can we do this without crashing the whole economy? We are pretty much down to the MacGiver moment when we are deciding whether to cut the blue wire of the red wire and it doesn't look good. We have plenty of resources to live an interesting and generally comfortable life if we are capable of accomplishing this. My retirement is gone due to surviving the first four years of this process so I am in the "Screw them as soon as possible" camp. Those who just want the simple things out of life are going to be fine. We may even be more satisfied than in the past. Those who bought and continue to buy the bullshit are going to be like the fat guy who can't swim during the last moments of the Titanic.

[don]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

for many it's like this . . .



through ignorance or choice . . .

( I don't really want to know is still very popular . . .)

[swgprop]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

Reminded me of this great series originally posted by Rajiv several years ago. The application of simple math portends involuntary adjustments to our standard of living on the horizon.

[Sutter Cane]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

From Naked Capitalism, a view from the other end of the doomer scale:

Will S&P Downgrade Be Another Y2K Scare?

Although I run the risk of being proven wrong, there are lots of reasons to think that the reaction in the Treasury market to the news will be underwhelming. We might see some reactions Monday as some investors who managed to be blindsided and aren’t happy with the downgrade exit but conversely, I know of investors who see any price softening as a buying opportunity.

[Starving Steve]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

Am I reading this right: "A buying opportunity on Monday,"?????????

We are to buy U.S. 90-day Treasuries that earn 0.01% annualized rate????????? And the longer end or the bonds yield similar insane rates?????????

A Congress that never saw a war it didn't like, and a Congress that refuses authorize tax increases, and a Congress that firmly believes in "deficits don't count" and "grow your way out of deficits" ( i.e, the mantra of Reaganomics ), and a President without an energy plan nor an economic plan, and a Fed chairman intent on destroying the dollar and paying zero to the fools who buy U.S. debt; what am I missing in this picture? Kicking-the-can down the road to a new Congress to fix, kicking-the-can down the road to a special committee to make recommendations to Congress for fixing the deficit, and the President, with another photo opportunity, signed onto this budget????

This is a budget? This is austerity? Who sacrifices to pay for the spending in this budget, except for other nations and those fools who buy U.S. Treasury debt? This is a solution?

How could the debt rating of the U.S. not be lowered? And the debt rating should be lowered again, as soon as possible, until the American government and its Federal Reserve Bank gets the message that this state of affairs is unsustainable, even in the short-run.

Meanwhile, the deadbeats in America run wild, with near-zero interest rates on mortgages, and effectively a debt holiday--- courtesy of Bernanke running the Fed! With zero interest rates, why should the deadbeats nor their Congress pay back anything on debt?

"How bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?" The answer is that as long as there a fools who buy U.S. Treasury debt, the free-ride is just going to get better and better.........

[c1ue]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

The notion that the global economy is collapsing is nonsense.

The notion even that the US economy will collapse - as in Rome sacked by barbarians - is equally nonsense.

The notion that the average American is going to lose 30% of his purchasing power - that is very possible. And what generally comes with such changes: tyranny.

[sunskyfan]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

Collapse is a colloquialism. The real danger models to think about are Germany and Russia from 1920-1940. That we might look something like them is unfortunately a distinct possibility.

[Starving Steve]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

One of the comments of the S.& P. rating service was that the American structure of government was archaic. It simply failed in the task of producing a budget, and perhaps with this structure, the American government could never rise to the task of producing a serious and austere budget.

I would think that President of the U.S. should be in Congress almost every day to lead the Congress in the task of governing. The President should have a coherent plan for the Congress. And when the President loses a vote of confidence in his leadership inside the Congress, there should be an election-call in America, and a new government should be voted in by the public.

Also, the upper house, the Senate, should be abolished, because the Senate over-represents rural areas and under-represents the metropolitan areas. In this century, rural areas should not block Congress from acting on the needs of major cities. And sad to say, most of the time, the Senate blocks the Congress from acting on anything.

Finally, the entire structure of the American government is designed to not function; i.e, the entire structure is designed to go into grid-lock. While grid-lock may have been acceptable in the late 18th C, it is totally unacceptable to-day if government is to function at all. Government at times must act, and the American government demonstrated with the passage of this budget monstrosity, a total failure to act and perhaps a total inability to act at all. This may be due to the archaic structure of the government itself--- a structure that has been unchanged since the 18th Century.

[Sutter Cane]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

Finally, the entire structure of the American government is designed to not function; i.e, the entire structure is designed to go into grid-lock. While grid-lock may have been acceptable in the late 18th C, it is totally unacceptable to-day if government is to function at all. Government at times must act, and the American government demonstrated with the passage of this budget monstrosity, a total failure to act and perhaps a total inability to act at all. This may be due to the archaic structure of the government itself--- a structure that has been unchanged since the 18th Century.

I posted another thread kind of touching on one aspect of this: http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/20006-Are-%28U.S.%29-States-an-Anachronism

In order to improve things, we might have to change how we have been doing things for the last 200+ years - crazy idea, I know. The mere suggestion of such changes is taboo in general American discourse, unfortunately.

Meanwhile in Iceland:

25 Ordinary Citizens Write Iceland’s New Constitution With Help From Social Media

In many ways then, the new Iceland constitution was the first to ever be born completely in the public eye. Sure, constitutional assemblies are often open to some sort of public scrutiny, but Iceland’s was broadcast on the internet. Council members regularly interacted with commenters, and every week the latest drafts of the various chapters (or the work related to their writing) were shared via a public website. Live broadcasts of the open council meetings were shown every Thursday via their site as well as Facebook. There was even a regular e-newsletter. Iceland used the web like never before to open up their process to the world and attract the attention of their public.

Not that this was an unqualified success:

The lessons we are to learn from Iceland’s new constitution, then, are a mixed bag. It’s absolutely amazing that an entire structure of government was made with help from social media and in total view of the world. Anyone from Reykjavík to Rio de Janeiro could watch and even give input to how Iceland should be governed. But that didn’t guarantee widespread public support nor even success. The new constitution is 700+ pages of ideals that may or may not be ratified come October, and whose ultimate benefit to Iceland is uncertain. Crowd-sourcing a constitution was a remarkably ballsy move, but it will take years before we know if it was a smart one.

But, points for trying.

"What would be a good way to run a country using the best of modern technology?" is a question worth asking, but of course on the other hand, TEH FOUNDIN FATHERZZZ!!!1!! etc.

[Starving Steve]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

I read your remarks about the state level of government in the U.S, who holds power within states, the obsolete geography of state lines and state capitols with great interest. Thank you.

Please also note that within the U.S. Senate at the federal level of government, a state like South Dakota holds equal representation to a state like California. So a state like Cal. with 35 million people has the same voice in the U.S. Senate as South Dakota, a state with about 700,000 people. In other words, 700 thousand people can counter the voice of 35 million people as far as getting anything done. And sad to say, usually nothing at all gets done in the Senate. Plus the Senate can block anything passed in the U.S. House, so usually nothing gets done in the U.S. Congress--- everything is blocked.

Sad to say, what little is passed in the U.S. Congress serves special interests, especially agriculture interests. The ethanol legislation (and scam) which served farmers well with a federal subsidy, is an example of what little was accomplished by the U.S. Congress in recent years.

[lektrode]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

This is a process of getting a generation who voted themselves an extravagant lifestyle in retirement to realize that their expectations are not going to be met. ....Those who just want the simple things out of life are going to be fine. We may even be more satisfied than in the past. Those who bought and continue to buy the bullshit are going to be like the fat guy who can't swim during the last moments of the Titanic.

+1
and whats going on in DC (or not, as the case seems to be) IMHO, is merely the deck chairs being re-arranged to permit the rats easy access to their 275foot lifeboats

[lektrode]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

.... President of the U.S. should be in Congress almost every day to lead the Congress in the task of governing. The President should have a coherent plan for the Congress. And when the President loses a vote of confidence in his leadership inside the Congress, there should be an election-call in America, and a new government should be voted in by the public.

+1

Also, the upper house, the Senate, should be abolished, because the Senate over-represents rural areas and under-represents the metropolitan areas. In this century, rural areas should not block Congress from acting on the needs of major cities. And sad to say, most of the time, the Senate blocks the Congress from acting on anything.

-1

Finally, the entire structure of the American government is designed to not function; i.e, the entire structure is designed to go into grid-lock. While grid-lock may have been acceptable in the late 18th C, it is totally unacceptable to-day if government is to function at all. Government at times must act, and the American government demonstrated with the passage of this budget monstrosity, a total failure to act and perhaps a total inability to act at all. This may be due to the archaic structure of the government itself--- a structure that has been unchanged since the 18th Century.

methinks that was their plan and that they had it right when they designed the basic functions, separation of power - but...

once upon a time in america, we had something now quaintly referred to as 'majority rule' and 'democracy' seemed to do much better overall - now?

we have TYRANNY OF THE MINORITY(ies)!
and this 'group' makes up the constituency of what party?
(since they cant seem to cobble together a 'natural majority' so instead say whatevah they have to, to pander to razor-thin slivers of the electorate with such disparate views that if ya put em all in 'the big tent' and gave em all free booze?
THEY'D ALL BE FIGHTING AMONGST THEMSELVES IN 2 HOURS!

and in my observation, the downfall began in 1913, with the passage of the fed reserve act - by what party?

the 1st great depression cemented this party's chokehold over the gov, as in the 40years they controlled the House, aka 'the pursestrings'

and never mind the passage of the income tax, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER SEVERAL HUNDRED TAXES that were mostly brought to us - by what party?

i hate to sound like a broken record, but since the 1600's the Great State of New Hampster as proven that SMALL GOVERNMENT, with NO BROADBASED TAXES will work just fine, as long as you dont give the political class the power of the broadbased tax

that and TERM LIMITS would go a LONG way towards fixing whats broken in The US today.

of course i'm simplifying here, and i certainly dont mean to sound 'partisan' (since most the jerks on the 'pubs side arent the type i'd vote for either) but you get my drift...

[BillBoard]

Re: I mean, really, how bad will it get for the average man or woman on the street?

The notion that the global economy is collapsing is nonsense.

The notion even that the US economy will collapse - as in Rome sacked by barbarians - is equally nonsense.

The notion that the average American is going to lose 30% of his purchasing power - that is very possible. And what generally comes with such changes: tyranny.

Make sense to me, and I am willing to say it all is a matter of perspective.

A friend tells me that the point of the Global Debt Collapse is to produce a single planetary debenture, that is to say something akin to a Global Treasury which will benefit only those that hold those bonds by making the World's resources only available to themselves.

Crazy! I said!

In turn he mentions that China and India are no longer threats since their populations will be rendered infertile by Bioengineered grains that will modify those populations genomes' into manageable numbers.

Yes, the next race of Earth's rulers have already been created and your and mine children are not among them.

So what of the average Joe and Jane? They will no longer exist since they will be obsolete.