Tesla Steps Up Production

[reggie]

Re: Tesla Steps Up Production

Sure is... http://www.teslamotors.com/models

Base price $62,400 after the $7500 US Federal rebate (your tax dollars at work)
Higher capacity battery model base price $72,400
Performance model $87,400 (Musk really has a thing for prices ending in 400)

Metallic paint $750 (otherwise available only in Henry Ford black and virgin white)
Pearl clear coat paint $1500
Glass roof $1500
High performance tires on 21" wheels $3500 (on all versions, including the "performance version"...go figure)
Performance Plus suspension package $6500 (only available as an option on the "performance version"...go figure)
Tech Package $3750; back up camera, memory seats, nav system, Xenon headlights, keyless entry... (No point having a high tech car without the tech package, eh)

And don't forget the $1500 High Power Wall Connector, which is described thus:
"The High Power Wall Connector is designed to complement the fluid, futuristic design aesthetic of the car it plugs into. Install this work of art in your garage or parking area with a power supply of up to 20 kW. With 20 kW of power, a Model S equipped with Twin Chargers can recover 62 miles of range per hour of charging."

The car looks great just standing still, and being electric it should be a rocket as a stop-light racer.

Well, it's a beautiful car. I've never gotten excited about any of the alternatively powered cars until I ran into this one. It's a well appointed sedan with a large interior that seems to be a feasible solution for a guy with a family.

[GRG55]

Re: Tesla Steps Up Production

Well, it's a beautiful car. I've never gotten excited about any of the alternatively powered cars until I ran into this one. It's a well appointed sedan with a large interior that seems to be a feasible solution for a guy with a family.

...and a fat wallet...

[c1ue]

Re: Tesla Steps Up Production

Saw this amusing blast from the past:

http://www.corolland.com/corolla/rea...-corollas.html

Engines (All figures for FWD)

Base engine, horsepower

Base engine, torque

Base engine, manual trans

Base engine, four-speed automatic

Base engine, three-speed automatic

Exactly 30 years ago, Toyota was achieving 36/47 mpg with gasoline engines.

Amazing what a 70hp engine can do...

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Tesla Steps Up Production

Saw this amusing blast from the past:

http://www.corolland.com/corolla/rea...-corollas.html



Exactly 30 years ago, Toyota was achieving 36/47 mpg with gasoline engines.

Amazing what a 70hp engine can do...

One word: weight

I don't know what the weight of the Toyota was 30 years ago, but I'm guessing it might be approx 50% of the weight of a new one today.

I recall the same thing with the Honda CRX HF......it was produced from 1984 I think(reactive to the energy crisis of a few years prior) and it got a reported 55mpg.

IIRC the car weighed a mere 1500 pounds......but about the time of it's introduction....muscle car madness returned(despite the Iran Iraq Tanker War) with affordable pump prices again.

I don't think the Honda CRX HF was a huge seller in the CRX range.

I wonder if/when we will see the introduction of lighter cars.......Audi/Jaguar made a big marketing push regarding their aluminium instead of steel cars.....maybe we will see the same thing apply with carbon fibre.

I think a 1500 pound economy hatchback with a microdiesel could easily exceed 100mpg.....assuming safety bureaucracy as well as consumer acceptance/demand allowed it.

To me the whole thing seems a bit silly.........if we are running a marathon we're quickly going to realize that carrying an extra 80 pounds in a backpack is not only counterproductive, but increasingly painful.

So maybe it's pain threshholds that will drive a reduction in average vehicle weight.

Lots of extra sheetmetal being driven too and fro for no good reason.

[c1ue]

Re: Tesla Steps Up Production

One word: weight

Not true. The full article lists weight - and the 1983 Corollas were over 2000 lbs in weight.

More importantly, the 1987 Corollas were only like 100 lbs heavier, but significantly worse mpg due to a slightly stronger engine.

I do agree that weight is a significant factor in general. The problem though is that weight and safety are significantly correlated, and similarly weight and comfort at speed are also similarly correlated.

I should note that the Tesla S curb weight is 4647 lbs. In contrast a 2013 Corvette is 3333 lbs, and a 2013 Audi S8 is 4641 lbs. The fancy high tech materials only bring the Tesla S into the same weight range as that 4 liter, 8 cylinder, ultra luxury gasoline engine car.

[GRG55]

Back to the future...

I honestly cannot see how any automotive company can support and pay for their infrastructure, G&A, development costs, marketing and regulatory compliance costs selling a few thousand cars a year. There is absolutely no possible way this is a viable business...

Anybody remember Saturn, Geo, Bricklin or the DeLorean Motor Company?
We discover yet again their low volume production business model ain't a viable business after all...

The serious car companies can't keep their own brands alive. To the list above we can now add such venerable brands as Mercury, Plymouth, Saab, Oldsmobile and Pontiac (the brand that John DeLorean made famous with the introduction of the GTO when he was at GM) - all of them dead since the FIRE era ended with the techbust in 2000.

I am really curious to see what sort of rabbit Tesla pulls out of its hat. I think it either becomes a vanity purchase...the "Ferrari of electric cars" (an extraordinarily difficult proposition)...or it dies.

Fisker Spent $660,000 on Each $103,000 Plug-in Car

By Angela Greiling Keane - Apr 18, 2013 6:11 PM MT

Fisker Automotive Inc. spent more than six times as much U.S. taxpayer and investor money to produce each luxury plug-in car it sold than the company received from customers, according to a research report.

The Anaheim, California-based company made about 2,500 of its $103,000 Karmas before halting production last year, disrupting its plans to use a $529 million U.S. loan to restart a shuttered Delaware factory owned by the predecessor of General Motors Co. (GM) The Karma was assembled in Finland.

Fisker was allowed to keep using money from its Energy Department loan after violating its terms multiple times, according to a report released April 17 by PrivCo, a New York- based researcher specializing in closely held companies. It said it based its report on documents, including the loan agreement, obtained through the U.S. Freedom of Information Act...

...Fisker stopped manufacturing cars late last year and fired three quarters of its remaining workers April 5. The company’s first repayment of $20.2 million on the Energy Department loan is due April 22, the report said.

Tony Knight of Sitrick & Co., an outside public relations agency representing Fisker, declined to comment.

A U.S. House panel is scheduled to hold a April 24 hearing on Fisker and its government financing. Invited witnesses include co-founder and namesake Henrik Fisker, who resigned last month; CEO Tony Posawatz and Chief Operating Officer Bernhard Koehler, who helped start the company whose customers include singer Justin Bieber and actor Leonardo DiCaprio...

...The Energy Department, which has had to defend its loan guarantees to failed solar-panel maker Solyndra LLC, gave Fisker its loan primarily to acquire and restart production at a closed GM plant in Delaware, the home state of Vice President Joe Biden, who attended the press conference announcing the venture. The company forecast it would create 2,500 jobs, according to a project summary still posted on the Energy Department’s website.

Activity at the Delaware plant stopped last year and no cars have been made there...

[GRG55]

Re: Back to the future...

Tesla Model S Tops GM Volt in North American Plug-In Race


Apr 26, 2013 3:08 PM MT

Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA), the luxury battery-car company run by billionaire Elon Musk, is North America’s rechargeable auto sales leader so far this year as its Model S sedan passed General Motors Co. (GM)’s Chevrolet Volt.

Tesla expects to report at least 4,750 deliveries of the electric Model S in the U.S. and Canada when it releases first- quarter results on May 8, said Shanna Hendriks, a company spokeswoman, reiterating a March 31 estimate. That compares with 4,421 Volt sales in North America and 3,695 deliveries of Nissan Motor Co. (7201)’s Leaf, based on data provided by the carmakers...

...While Tesla’s quarterly lead is “interesting trivia,” Volt will see higher volume over time, said John Wolkonowicz, an independent auto analyst based in Boston.

“The Volt is the one that makes sense out of that whole group of plug-ins, because you can use it like a regular car when the battery runs out,” Wolkonowicz said yesterday.

Tesla’s small size, relative to GM and Nissan, will keep the electric-car maker under financial pressure, he said.

“The auto business is all about capital intensity, you have to spend money to keep improving your products and develop new ones,” Wolkonowicz said. “A small little auto company like Tesla, I just don’t think they can do it.”...

...Separately, Tesla is adding a loaner fleet including new Model S sedans and older Roadster sports cars for customer use when their vehicles are serviced, Chief Executive Officer Musk said yesterday. The company is also adding a “no fault” battery warranty covering all damage, “even if you never followed or read the manual,” he said on a conference call.

“As long as you don’t set out to intentionally destroy the battery pack, it’s going to be covered,” Musk said...

[santafe2]

Re: Back to the future...

...While Tesla’s quarterly lead is “interesting trivia,” Volt will see higher volume over time, said John Wolkonowicz, an independent auto analyst based in Boston.

“The Volt is the one that makes sense out of that whole group of plug-ins, because you can use it like a regular car when the battery runs out,” Wolkonowicz said yesterday.

Since I have a Volt, I suppose I have a dog in this fight but I see no comparison between these two cars. The Volt is a Prius+ and the Tesla Sedan is a very high end status symbol. It's a green Ferrari. I have to buy gasoline every two or three months and my car looks pretty much like a bunch of other Chevy vehicles. I've talked to my dealer a few times since I bought my car and it doesn't sound like they're winning. This is going to be a very long transition. All that said, I love my car and I get 250 miles to the gallon. I don't hate bringing my car home at night and using the energy my solar panels made during the day.

[shiny!]

Re: Back to the future...

Since I have a Volt, I suppose I have a dog in this fight but I see no comparison between these two cars. The Volt is a Prius+ and the Tesla Sedan is a very high end status symbol. It's a green Ferrari. I have to buy gasoline every two or three months and my car looks pretty much like a bunch of other Chevy vehicles. I've talked to my dealer a few times since I bought my car and it doesn't sound like they're winning. This is going to be a very long transition. All that said, I love my car and I get 250 miles to the gallon. I don't hate bringing my car home at night and using the energy my solar panels made during the day.

I understand that you like your Volt, but I don't understand the economics of it. My Accent hatchback with taxes and fees was $19,000.00. The Volt is $39,000.00 before taxes and fees. Is it really going to save $20,000.00 in gas over its lifetime?

[santafe2]

Re: Back to the future...

I understand that you like your Volt, but I don't understand the economics of it. My Accent hatchback with taxes and fees was $19,000.00. The Volt is $39,000.00 before taxes and fees. Is it really going to save $20,000.00 in gas over its lifetime?

There's a federal rebate of $7,500 but that said there's never an economic argument for buying any new car, even a $19,000 car vs. some other car that costs much less, say a 10 year old Camry or even better, public transportation or a bike. We all buy cars that please us and fit within our budget. I calculate the cost of driving my Volt for three years will be $250-$300 per month which includes insurance. That's 25-30 cents a mile. I could drive an old Toyota Camry for about 18-20 cents a mile or I could drive your Accent for about 22 cents a mile but it's not worth it to me to save ~$50-$100 a month. I enjoy driving by the Shell station too much to give it up.

[GRG55]

Re: Back to the future...

There's a federal rebate of $7,500 but that said there's never an economic argument for buying any new car, even a $19,000 car vs. some other car that costs much less, say a 10 year old Camry or even better, public transportation or a bike. We all buy cars that please us and fit within our budget. I calculate the cost of driving my Volt for three years will be $250-$300 per month which includes insurance. That's 25-30 cents a mile. I could drive an old Toyota Camry for about 18-20 cents a mile or I could drive your Accent for about 22 cents a mile but it's not worth it to me to save ~$50-$100 a month. I enjoy driving by the Shell station too much to give it up.

People buy cars for a lot of different reasons, but it is rare for a new car purchase not to include a heavy dose of emotion. In the price range it is playing, Tesla had to produce a head turner, something that many buyers would see as sophisticated, gorgeous styling, that makes more than an ecological statement. I think they hit their target market with the Model "S" dead center, much more so than the Roadster which came across as a bit of a toy.

General Motors has a tougher problem as a mass market car manufacturer (unless they decide to produce an electric Corvette some day ). The Volt suffers from that rather bland "committee" styling that GM is famous for...designed not to offend anyone. But does not generate much emotional excitement either. Toyota was careful to make sure that the Prius' shape was unlike any of their other vehicles, instantly recognizable on the road as their hybrid car. The Volt is difficult to distinguish from grandfather's Malibu. Being a GM it'll be a fine car, well engineered and well put together for the price point, but it is difficult to understand what wide audience it is supposed to appeal to.

If I had to make a guess GM is going to have a much greater success with the Spark EV when it comes out this summer.
If we let shiny! loose in one of those she'll be smokin' the boyz at the Mesa stoplight races, like a modern day version of that gal from Pasedena that the Beach Boys knew...and dump that Hyundai faster than a bad date...

Edit added: Can someone explain why GM decided to put a gasoline engine in a car the named the "Spark", before the EV version was introduced? What on earth were they thinking???

[santafe2]

Re: Back to the future...

The Volt suffers from that rather bland "committee" styling that GM is famous for...designed not to offend anyone. But does not generate much emotional excitement either. Toyota was careful to make sure that the Prius' shape was unlike any of their other vehicles, instantly recognizable on the road as their hybrid car. The Volt is difficult to distinguish from grandfather's Malibu. Being a GM it'll be a fine car, well engineered and well put together for the price point, but it is difficult to understand what wide audience it is supposed to appeal to.

If I had to make a guess GM is going to have a much greater success with the Spark EV when it comes out this summer.

For me the perfect car would be a Volt with 21 kWh of battery life like the Spark. If I could drive 82 miles on a charge, my gas mileage would go up from 250 mpg to about 1,000 mpg. I'm still not a fan of all electric cars like the Spark because I occasionally drive more than 60-70 miles in a day. An electric car that let's you drive old school when you need to is very handy. I'm obviously in the vast minority but committee styling aside, I'm a real fan of the Volt and I hope GM will still come out with the next generation Volt in 2015-2016.

[GRG55]

Re: Back to the future...

For me the perfect car would be a Volt with 21 kWh of battery life like the Spark. If I could drive 82 miles on a charge, my gas mileage would go up from 250 mpg to about 1,000 mpg. I'm still not a fan of all electric cars like the Spark because I occasionally drive more than 60-70 miles in a day. An electric car that let's you drive old school when you need to is very handy. I'm obviously in the vast minority but committee styling aside, I'm a real fan of the Volt and I hope GM will still come out with the next generation Volt in 2015-2016.

santafe2: I live in the Rocky Mtn foothills and have to drive some long distances over tough roads in some very harsh conditions at times, so an electric or hybrid doesn't work in my situation. I see lots of difficulties (is an all electric practical in a Minnesota winter with the lights, wipers and heater all running ), but the discussion here has...um...sparked my interest. I think you are on the leading edge of a state-of-the-art solution and it will only get better with development $, and each generation. If there is going to be significant penetration of electric and hybrid vehicles (I coming 'round to believe that will happen, but it will take a couple of decades+) it will be the Toyotas and GMs of the world that will make it happen, not the Teslas. I would probably look seriously at a Spark EV if I was still living in the inner city as I did when I was younger...if for no other reason than a "skateboard" of a car with a 130 hp electric traction motor would be quite the little hot rod!

[shiny!]

Re: Back to the future...

Reading up on the Spark EV. I should know better than to check iTulip on the way to bed...

[santafe2]

Re: Back to the future...

santafe2: I live in the Rocky Mtn foothills and have to drive some long distances over tough roads in some very harsh conditions at times, so an electric or hybrid doesn't work in my situation. I see lots of difficulties (is an all electric practical in a Minnesota winter with the lights, wipers and heater all running ), but the discussion here has...um...sparked my interest. I think you are on the leading edge of a state-of-the-art solution and it will only get better with development $, and each generation. If there is going to be significant penetration of electric and hybrid vehicles (I coming 'round to believe that will happen, but it will take a couple of decades+) it will be the Toyotas and GMs of the world that will make it happen, not the Teslas. I would probably look seriously at a Spark EV if I was still living in the inner city as I did when I was younger...if for no other reason than a "skateboard" of a car with a 130 hp electric traction motor would be quite the little hot rod!

By 40+ latitude standards we don't have harsh winters in Santa Fe but we do have the odd zero degree day when my Volt runs, but only on gasoline because the batteries are too cold to use. As I told the sales person at my local Chevy dealership when he was trying to sell the extended warranty, this isn't a car it's a science experiment. I love it but I don't want to own it for more than three years. The 2016 models should be much better if GM can afford to keep investing in this idea. As you said, it's a multi decade transition but it seems achievable.