The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Zero point energy is a standard scientific concept that has been understood since the early days of quantum mechanics. I wouldn't portray this as something that is only beginning to be understood. It's not particularly exotic -- most college chemistry majors encounter zero point energy when studying vibrational spectroscopy; any physics major encounters zero point energy in core classwork. The general concept isn't controversial in any way -- it plays a significant role in the standard description of several phenomena. For instance, the zero point energy of the electromagnetic field is central to the physical description of how most light sources work (essentially, "spontaneous emission" isn't actually spontaneous, but is actually "stimulated emission" that is stimulated by the zero point energy of the EM field). The zero point energy of molecular vibrations plays a role in various chemical reaction rates.

You get into trouble when you start talking about continuously extracting zero point energy as a power souce. Conceptually, that is a little like trying to get power continuously from magnets. You can physically build optical cavities that have fewer optical modes inside than externally, and hence have less zero point energy inside than out; you can demonstrate what is essentially a pressure differential associated with the difference in energy density. Alternatively, in principle, you could do something so mundane as a chemical reaction in which the reactants have more zero point energy than the products (although I don't have a specific example in mind, I assume this should be possible). But like assembling magnets in an arrangement that can do some work when they are released and allowed to move, these are all one-shot schemes that don't reset themselves.

Everyone here has the highest regard for your command of the subject. But that does not mean there may become available, a new way of looking at certain aspects of your description; that might open up the debate into a new understanding of how the electron is generated within the structure of the atom. I for one, am not convinced that conventional science has a complete grasp of the fundamentals. Cannot say more than that today and leave the discussion open to further developments.

[ASH]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

But that does not mean there may become available, a new way of looking at certain aspects of your description; that might open up the debate into a new understanding of how the electron is generated within the structure of the atom. I for one, am not convinced that conventional science has a complete grasp of the fundamentals. Cannot say more than that today and leave the discussion open to further developments.

You're right that the conventional understanding of these phenomena might be superseded by new insights. I hope people understand that I'm articulating the conventional viewpoint. On a web site dedicated to a contrary view of the markets and economy, it isn't surprising to find enthusiasm for unconventional ideas in other areas. I present the conventional viewpoint because it makes more sense to me; I figure that the conventional viewpoint should be presented in these discussion as a reference point, at least, when unconventional ideas are also being presented. But I don't want to come off as shouting down others.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Ash, you never come over as shouting down; indeed, instead, as a steady voice that commands respect.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Further to my comments above about the potential for using steam to power local electricity generation. While this is not about that, but the use of DC rather than AC to power computers; it is also important to recognise that one of the main reasons why AC became so popular is that AC transmits over long distances much better than DC. But, if this news proves to be a marker for new thinking, then it becomes very easy to see why a small steam powered DC generator might be installed in any university campus, indeed, any major building that has, as a part of the design, the provision of computing facilities for a large number of people.

Britain’s first local DC computer network installed on campus

When students returned from their Christmas vacation this year they found a new suite of computers on the fifth floor of the library.

These were faster, smaller, quieter and generally better to use. Little did students realise that they were also part of a demonstration of a new method of distributing energy.

These computers are powered using direct current (DC) electricity rather than alternating current (AC). The supply network is unique and will act as a showcase for future projects of this type.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/2011/03/21/first-dc-network/

[c1ue]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

These computers are powered using direct current (DC) electricity rather than alternating current (AC). The supply network is unique and will act as a showcase for future projects of this type.

You left out this part of the article:

AC electric power from the grid is converted to DC and runs 50 specially adapted computers in the University Library.

There are some very good reasons why DC isn't used for power transmission:

1) DC current doesn't throw you off, it kills you. (a high enough AC would likely kill you anyway as your spine snaps. But at least you won't be a charred corpse)
2) Short circuits/pole reversals in DC are far more devastating to the power network than AC
3) Power losses over long distances is far higher for DC than AC, though this last part is largely due to AC being much easier/cheaper to transform to/from high voltages.

With modern electronic controls and/or superconductors, these issues can be overcome for long distance high power electricity transmission - though the cost is quite impressive.

For home/local use - until the main transmission facilities are converted over - this is a publicity stunt.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

For home/local use - until the main transmission facilities are converted over - this is a publicity stunt.

Hardly a "Stunt" when all they are doing is demonstrating an identifiable improvement over existing computing costs. Again, all you have done is reinforce my own point about the unsuitability of long distance transmission of DC. However, my comment remains valid as a pointer towards a future without long distance transmission.

[c1ue]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Again, all you have done is reinforce my own point about the unsuitability of long distance transmission of DC.

You clearly didn't read what I posted.

Because listed as one of the problems with DC vs. AC is the expense of up- or down- converting voltages in DC.

HVDC superconducting transmission lines isn't going to fix that problem, and installing a AC to DC converter only shifts some of the losses to the converter rather than in the computing device. Or in other words, an accounting trick at least in part.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

You clearly didn't read what I posted.

Because listed as one of the problems with DC vs. AC is the expense of up- or down- converting voltages in DC.

HVDC superconducting transmission lines isn't going to fix that problem, and installing a AC to DC converter only shifts some of the losses to the converter rather than in the computing device. Or in other words, an accounting trick at least in part.

Touché! What I was describing is a future with LOW voltage DC generation on site; not involving high voltage. As I see it, if the use of low voltage DC brings lower computing costs, then, add in the potential for similar low voltage lighting using LED's, brings forward a new market for the use of a ROSSI device to provide heat energy on site to power a good old fashioned STEAM powered Low Voltage DC Generator. Add the use of the waste heat for other uses, not just heating, but for industrial purposes; opens the door to a completely new energy efficient future without high voltage long distance transmission.

[flintlock]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

This thread sounds like this to me

[tmicou]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

That looks like a "copy cat". Here is the original guy who did this off-the-cuff http://mylifedock.com/fantastic-engi...babble-speak-0

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Absolutely brilliant, both of you... thanks for the great laugh.

[dbarberic]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Is this the same Rossi that everyone is discussing?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...sion_Generator

If so... he was interviewed last night on a light night AM talk show called Coast 2 Coast AM during the second half of the show.
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2011/03/23

I have no scientific background, so I can not comment at all about his claims. For those who are interested in debating his claims, it might be worth your time to listen.

[Southernguy]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Here it goes again!!!!
Is it real?

I'm not qualified to comment on the science, but I wonder what motivates Rossi if the science is a fraud. If it's a fraud, won't he become the town idiot and lose his job at the University of Bologna? And if it's a fraud, isn't it certain to be proved to be a fraud? If one's answers are "yes" to both questions, why would Rossi expose himself to such a disasterous outcome?

I played this game with my kids a couple of years ago. We sat around dreaming of what powers we would want if we could have any powers we wanted. My high school son wanted to hit 3 point shots from half court. I wanted the power to produce safe and clean energy from the cheapest material imaginable. He looked at me like I was crazy. I told him to imagine what would happen if he had such a power. Within ten minutes he agreed that it was a much more awesome power than a 3 point shot.

My favorite part was when he imagined a trip to the Middle East to demonstrate this power. He decided he would give OPEC five years to reform thier economic and political systems before he unleashed his new invention. I suggested he should just unleash it now and let them reform immediately. It was a very interesting discussion into the wee hours of the morning.

[Southernguy]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Sorry for mistakenly pasting.
Here´s the report on new experiments.



Yet another test of Andrea Rossi's Energy Catalyzer (E-Cat) has been performed on a 4.5 kW version near the University of Bologna. This time a new set of observers were present, one of which is the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society, who confirmed that Copper is being formed from Hydrogen and Nickel -- cold fusion!

Andrea Rossi grasps one of his new E-Cat units that offer a more compact size and higher power density.

by Hank Mills
Pure Energy Systems News


The evidence in support of Andrea Rossi's "cold fusion" or "LENR" (low energy nuclear reaction) based Energy Catalyzer continues to grow. For those who are not aware, his system combines nickel powder, hydrogen gas, and an input of pressure and heat to produce a large output of thermal energy. On March 29th, 2011 yet another test of the technology was performed at the University of Bologna. Like previous tests, the outcome was a complete success. However, this time a smaller version of the E-Cat was tested and two new observers were present.

Some well known players were present during the test. These include Andrea Rossi (the inventor of the E-Cat), Professor Sergio Focardi, Dr. David Bianchini, and of course Dr. Giuseppe Levi. Two guest observers were also present. One of the guest observers was Hanno Essen, associate professor of theoretical physics at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology. He is also the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society. The other guest observer was Professor Sven Kullander of Uppsala University. He is also chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences Energy Committee.


Smaller System with Great Results

The test was performed on a much smaller version of the E-Cat. The previous version of the E-Cat had a reactor volume of about one liter. This system has a reactor volume of only one twentieth of a liter. Four E-Cat systems were present, but only one was tested. The remaining units had their shielding and insulation removed. This allowed for their construction to be seen.

This new model of E-Cat consists of a stainless steel reactor vessel which is placed inside of a copper pipe. Water flows between the copper pipe and the steel reactor vessel. There are inlets for both water and hydrogen gas. The reactor is activated by current flowing through a resistor which is wrapped around the outside of the copper pipe. When a certain temperature is reached the reaction begins. The setup is truly simple. It reminds me of old pipework from many years ago.

Kullander and Essen were given permission to examine the setup, check for hidden power supplies, fill the reactor with hydrogen, calibrate the volume of water flow, monitor the temperature of the water flow in and out of the system, and observe the entire experiment. The reactor contained 50 grams of nickel powder and .11 grams of hydrogen. In their report (pdf) they state, "We had free access to the heater electric supply, to the inlet water hose, to the outlet steam valve and water hose, and to the hydrogen gas feed pipe. The total weight of the device was estimated to be around 4 kg."

The result of the experiment was a constant average production of 4.69 kW of power for almost six hours. Additionally, the input was on average 330 watts (30 of which was used by the electronics controlling the setup). This is fifteen times less than the energy produced by the device (15x overunity).

This output was less than the 10 to 15 kW produced by the previous version of the E-Cat, but this is very impressive for a device 1/20th the volume!

Kullander and Essen also ruled out that the energy could be coming from a chemical source. They stated, "Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production." This statement is VERY significant coming from a report written not only by professional scientists, but also by the chairman of a skeptical society!

Yet again, it seems the existence of cold fusion or LENR in the form of Andrea Rossi's Energy Catalyzer has been vindicated. However, there is more news to report.


Transmutations

It is well known to those who have been following the saga of Andrea Rossi's technology that one byproduct of the system is copper. Apparently, it is the result of the fusion reaction between nickel and hydrogen. Until now, we had to take Andrea Rossi's word for that, but the results of additional testing has confirmed his claims.

A sample of fresh nickel powder and a sample of nickel powder that had been in an active E-Cat for two and a half months was given to Kullander and Essen. Elemental and isotopic analysis was performed on the samples utilizing both X-ray Fluorescence and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry. The result was that the fresh nickel powder was almost totally pure nickel, but the nickel powder that had been in an E-Cat contained 10% copper and 11% iron. Two of the copper isotopes detected were Cu63 and Cu65. Kullander has stated this is proof of nuclear reactions taking place in the reactor.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Bob Park!

Mr. Park, are you ready to start apologizing for your many years of claiming cold fusion is simply pseudo-science, voodoo science, and snake oil? You better crawl back into the hole you came out of, because a lot of folks are going to be demanding apologies soon!

(Go ahead and continue faking your, "cold fusion amnesia." We realize you have been avoiding talking about the topic over the past few months!)


Dumbstream Media Still Not Paying Attention

After multiple successful tests of the E-Cat by third parties, and now proof of nuclear reactions, it is frustrating (but predictable) that the mainstream media is not paying hardly any attention to this technology. The E-Cat represents a way to eliminate our need for fossil fuels and an alternative to conventional nuclear power. However, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, and many other news networks act as if nothing is happening.

This is more proof that the mainstream media is dead, totally owned and controlled by the corrupt powers that be. If you want up to date news and information the alternative media is now the best source. At some point, awareness of this technology will reach a critical mass, and the so called mainstream media will be forced to cover it. Probably, there will be multi-hour long televised specials about the technology. The truth, of course, will be that they will not deserve the ratings they get. They ignored this technology for many months and it would serve them right if no one tuned in! I hope Andrea Rossi does not give a single major network in the United States an interview. My personal hope is that he chooses to give frequent interviews on Coast to Coast AM, and other media outlets that have frequently favorably discussed cold fusion over the years.


Energy Revolution Coming Soon

This is further evidence that an energy revolution is coming. As the year long research program on the E-Cat technology continues at the University of Bologna, more evidence is bound to be released. Perhaps soon after the one megawatt power plant and 300,000 unit a year manufacturing plant in Xanthi, Greece opens, a factory can start up in Japan. They could sure use a source of jobs and a new source of energy to replace their destroyed conventional nuclear power industry.

The only real mystery at this point is the catalyst(s) used in the reaction. This is the key to producing practical levels of output from nickel-hydrogen fusion systems.

# # #
This story is also published at BeforeItsNews.

[ASH]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Here it goes again!!!!
Is it real?

With the claim of having transmuted 20% of a nickel sample to copper and iron, the possibility they are misinterpreting a non-nuclear reaction is reduced (and the probability of a deliberate fraud is higher). However, I don't like the methods claimed for assessing the transmutation -- both techniques are better suited for assaying very small, localized samples. Since there is copper and iron present in the experimental system (copper piping and stainless steel vessel), there is some danger of contaminating a small sample with elements already present elsewhere in the experiment. I would think that to verify the 20% transmutation claimed, a gross chemically-based assay of a large sample would be more appropriate.

As a sanity check, the numbers mentioned (50 g of nickel; 20% conversion) can be used in combination with the change in nuclear binding energy to estimate what the energy output should have been from the sample they claim was fused. Round numbers to follow...

EDIT: One other item, before the round numbers. With the mass spectrometer, they ought to be able to measure the relative abundance of Cu-63 and Cu-65 in their sample. If those isotopes were observed in abundances other than those naturally occurring, that would actually be evidence for fusion. If the natural abundances were observed, then that is evidence the copper just came from elsewhere in the machine.