“The Information”

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

My understanding of Godel is that he showed that certain complex systems cannot be "self-proven" -- that is, proven without reference to something outside the system. For other than the most abstract of these systems, that "something outside" is called "reality."

So it's not that such systems are totally unprovable, it's that they may need an external reference, so they cannot be completely self-contained.

Do I have that right?

So, in a world where all of the publics' inputs are digital ("The Information"), how does one step outside this "system" to prove the validity (ie no contradictions) of this reality that these digital objects purport to create?

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

FYI, while the following clip maybe a little melodramatic, its beginning presents Heinz von Foerster discussing the fact that science ("information") has been leveraged to create two realities.

As the clip continues, it introduces some of the work Norbert Weiner, who was largely responsible for developing cybernetic systems that our computer networks are largely based upon now. Part of what is interesting is that Norbert characterized humanity as information systems who can be programmed via "information".

Again, it's my contention that Gleick is simultaneously surreptitiously and overtly celebrating the work of Weiner, Foerster, and countless others.

[Starving Steve]

Re: “The Information”

Some thoughts ... good topic!

1. I had to chuckle at "certainty's dead". An "oxymoron" if there ever was one.

2. Godel's theorem has many meanings depending on what angle you look. Generally, as system cannot model itself therefore can't be used to predicts its own future completely. Critical challenge to those wishing for an understanding the proves a deterministic world that is useful.

3. There is a clear difference between the concept of "unknowable" and "random" but people casually interchange the two.

4. Information theory is really cool and very important and should be taught to everyone and I advice anyone to pick up a description of Shannon's work. Dover I think has a little book on that is very good.

5. The intellectual abuse, even at the highest academic levels, of the term "entropy" is almost never considered. It is much more complex and beautiful than a casual understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics would give. It should be a subject all by itself like Chemistry, Physics, or Biology but it isn't. Information Theory comes close but I think Information Theory and Computer Science should be part Entropoligy than the other way around.

Question: What would Godel's Theorem, Information Theory, Number Theory, Logic, the Law of Entropy, Chaos Theory, Complex Numbers, Game Theory, or the "new math" dictate for the amount of foreign aid that Pakistan should get from the U.S, especially in light of the fact that OBL was sheltered in Pakistan for ten years, practicing his speeches and twiddling his beard, and no-one in Pakistan knew anything about it? For ten years, atomic secrets were passed to Al Qaide, and no-one in Pakistan claims to have known? For ten years, OBL was next to a military base, and no-one knew anything about him?

Where did he buy his groceries? What mosque did he pray in? His wivesssssssssssss and kids had amnesia? Where did he file his income tax? Who prepared his income tax return? No tax audits? What would happen when a hornet would fly into his television room? He did his own plumbing and electrical repair? Car repairs? Oil changes? Who did his banking? His legal work? Who filled his prescriptions? Who delivered his speeches to Al Jazeera? BBC World News in London just had their "contacts" somewhere in the turd world? Reliable sources in Pakistan....?

As usual, I am lost. The amount of U.S. foreign aid that Pakistan would be entitled to might be zero? But the university professors and the U.S. Department of State would say that I need more mental help, maybe another drug to control brain seizures and hallucinations? I need to use complex numbers to make sense of this?

[Starving Steve]

Re: “The Information”

Ah yes, set theory would explain why billions in aid must be sent to Pakistan. But I still wonder where OBL kept his camels? Who fed his goldfish for ten years? Why didn't OBL's doctors tip-off the police? Did OBL ever have dental problems; who was his dentist? Wasn't there a neighbourhood watch in Abbotsbad, or maybe their neighbourhood-watch programme needed more aid from America?

But I guess the cybernetic systems that our computer networks are largely based upon, together with Weiner, Heinz von Foerster, Gleick, Norbert, and countless others know more than I could ever know about five-dimensional reality and the culture of the turd world.... This is why Pakistan needs more aid.

[Starving Steve]

Re: “The Information”

Former U.S. Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, speaking on CNN on May 9th on the subject of giving more U.S. aid to Pakistan: "We need the co-operation of Pakistan..........They have been very good at turning-over their Al Qaide terrorists to us, at least in their urban areas over the past ten years." Rumsfeld was one of the morons who worked in the Bush Administration in Washington.

As posted above, this is why we need to study the mathematics of imaginary numbers and the fifth-dimension in mathematics. For kids here, imaginary numbers, also known as complex numbers, are x + y( square root of -1) = z, where x and y are real numbers, and z is an imaginary number in the fifth-dimension. (The fourth-dimension is time. )

[*T*]

Re: “The Information”

I am halfway though the book. It is as well written as the author's "Chaos", but on a more important subject. It takes a historical narrative, but does attempt to explain some maths on a fairly basic level. IMHO it is worth reading. Hopefully it will help give Shannon the place in the popular pantheon alongside Maxwell, Einstein etc that he deserves, for what he did.

I agree with the comments on the importance of entropy. Economics degrees should have an introduction to thermodynamics in their first year, the world would be a better place for it.

Starving Steve, this thread would not exist and you would not be able to troll it if it wasn't for Shannon's work. Start your own thread on the topic of aid to Pakistan. No-one here gives a fuck.

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

Question: What would Godel's Theorem, Information Theory, Number Theory, Logic, the Law of Entropy, Chaos Theory, Complex Numbers, Game Theory, or the "new math" dictate for the amount of foreign aid that Pakistan should get from the U.S, especially in light of the fact that OBL was sheltered in Pakistan for ten years, practicing his speeches and twiddling his beard, and no-one in Pakistan knew anything about it? For ten years, atomic secrets were passed to Al Qaide, and no-one in Pakistan claims to have known? For ten years, OBL was next to a military base, and no-one knew anything about him?

Where did he buy his groceries? What mosque did he pray in? His wivesssssssssssss and kids had amnesia? Where did he file his income tax? Who prepared his income tax return? No tax audits? What would happen when a hornet would fly into his television room? He did his own plumbing and electrical repair? Car repairs? Oil changes? Who did his banking? His legal work? Who filled his prescriptions? Who delivered his speeches to Al Jazeera? BBC World News in London just had their "contacts" somewhere in the turd world? Reliable sources in Pakistan....?

As usual, I am lost. The amount of U.S. foreign aid that Pakistan would be entitled to might be zero? But the university professors and the U.S. Department of State would say that I need more mental help, maybe another drug to control brain seizures and hallucinations? I need to use complex numbers to make sense of this?

I guess it depends on what level of understanding you're comfortable with. But if you want to understand the genesis of your current world, then the answer to your question is YES (at least one should make an effort to understand the concepts and goals behind these concepts).

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

I am halfway though the book. It is as well written as the author's "Chaos", but on a more important subject. It takes a historical narrative, but does attempt to explain some maths on a fairly basic level. IMHO it is worth reading. Hopefully it will help give Shannon the place in the popular pantheon alongside Maxwell, Einstein etc that he deserves, for what he did.

I agree with the comments on the importance of entropy. Economics degrees should have an introduction to thermodynamics in their first year, the world would be a better place for it.

Starving Steve, this thread would not exist and you would not be able to troll it if it wasn't for Shannon's work. Start your own thread on the topic of aid to Pakistan. No-one here gives a fuck.

Entropy is being used to justify a social agenda. The "Chaos" that is supposedly being observed is not random.... Foerester's Power Laws are being implemented to assure society of this. Chaos theory is "managed chaos" and "the information" is the mechanism of management. Gotta go back to the 1940's and earlier to read about the development of the science.... we're just seeing the outcomes of that work now.

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

@6:40 "Information are small amounts of energy that control larger amounts of energy. This is the secret of life that captures the interests of Cybernetics and Chaos Theory."

Management Cybernetics & Chaos Theory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HVRniR3GrQ

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

"The edge of chaos is where information gets its foot in the door in the physical world, where it gets the upper hand over energy."


Chris Langston,
Santa Fe Institute


Anyone want to take a stab at what Chris means by "energy"

Complexity: Life at the Edge of Chaos
Roger Lewin
http://www.amazon.com/Complexity-Lif.../dp/0226476553

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

@6:40 "Information are small amounts of energy that control larger amounts of energy. This is the secret of life that captures the interests of Cybernetics and Chaos Theory."

Management Cybernetics & Chaos Theory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HVRniR3GrQ

No one here wants to try and interpret what Langston is talking about? Are we supposed to study the economic world in isolation of the sciences that drives it?

[dcarrigg]

Re: “The Information”

I am halfway though the book. It is as well written as the author's "Chaos", but on a more important subject. It takes a historical narrative, but does attempt to explain some maths on a fairly basic level. IMHO it is worth reading. Hopefully it will help give Shannon the place in the popular pantheon alongside Maxwell, Einstein etc that he deserves, for what he did.

I agree with the comments on the importance of entropy. Economics degrees should have an introduction to thermodynamics in their first year, the world would be a better place for it.

Starving Steve, this thread would not exist and you would not be able to troll it if it wasn't for Shannon's work. Start your own thread on the topic of aid to Pakistan. No-one here gives a fuck.

Chaos was a very good read. I'll have to pick this up over the weekend.

So far as Steve goes - block him - it works wonders.

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

I am halfway though the book. It is as well written as the author's "Chaos", but on a more important subject. It takes a historical narrative, but does attempt to explain some maths on a fairly basic level. IMHO it is worth reading. Hopefully it will help give Shannon the place in the popular pantheon alongside Maxwell, Einstein etc that he deserves, for what he did.

I agree with the comments on the importance of entropy. Economics degrees should have an introduction to thermodynamics in their first year, the world would be a better place for it.

Starving Steve, this thread would not exist and you would not be able to troll it if it wasn't for Shannon's work. Start your own thread on the topic of aid to Pakistan. No-one here gives a fuck.

Reading between the lines, Chaos Theory, and therefore, Entropy, only applies to the public going forward. It's the public, of course, that supply the energy for this Complex Adaptive System we're now living in, and this is the same "energy" that Chris refers to in his statement at the Sante Fe Institute.

I believe that when one views global economic movements in terms of a tool to create this state-change into the conditions where Chaos Theory applies, then one may come away with an entirely different view of recent history.

[reggie]

Re: “The Information”

I'll leave this thread by stating that reading Gleick is a waste of time, unless your aim is only attend a sales pitch for Complex Adaptive Systems (CAS) in a Chaotic State. Gleick hides the real intent of this sales pitch, nor does he address it's long term impact on society and humanity. To gain any real understanding, I suggest foregoing the money one would spend on Gleick and invest it in a more expensive but far more rewarding expose on CAS and it's impact [ie intended impact] on our social systems. Stokes claims that he studied under Stafford Beer, one of the icons of Management Cybernetics, and in this piece, that's not intended for the consumer or psuedo intellectual, he explains how societies are structured, ordered and governed through the science of Cybernetics, "build[ing] a more effective sociological theory [of control] than has been possible up to now"

The Viability of Societies: Governance and Complexity Today
Paul Stokes
http://www.amazon.com/Viability-Soci.../dp/3639111966