Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

[Master Shake]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

There was a prior discussion of Joule:

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...horse?p=190490

Basically it all sounds good, but there are a large number of holes in the story, including:

1) Insertion of photosynthesis into E.Coli - possible, but why when there are already single celled photosynthetic vehicles. The algae ventures have thus far proven fruitless - why would an even more complicated vehicle prove better?

2) Creation of hydrocarbons from photosynthetic outputs (i.e. sugars) - non trivial, and likely impossible in a single celled organism

3) Manufacturing output - even if the above 2 challenges are fixed, how to industrially farm a single celled organism. Challenges include: extraction of hydrocarbons from the nutrient slurry (for alcohol this involves burning fossil fuels to generate heat for distillation), what to feed (feedstock issue noted above), how to handle waste, etc etc



Brazil is growing sugar cane, then fermenting/distilling said sugar into ethanol. Throw in virtual slave labor, and you have a viable energy source.

Every step of the above process is well understood, controllable, and cheap - what Joule is supposedly doing doesn't exhibit any of these characteristics.

Where do you get the E. coli from? In the article they talk about gen enginered cyanobacteria, i.e. blue-green algae.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

I do see an interesting angle to this, though. Can you imagine how attractive it would be if they could compartmentalize these units, and sell/distribute them throughout the country? Not every one would have to be a many million acre farm. These could be scalable, I'd imagine. There's lots of farm land across the south that could find room for these. All depends on the efficiency of the bugs, and the overall process.

Being practical and pragmatic, I want twenty-five cent per litre ethanol, at the fuel pump and delivered to me. Can the market deliver this to me? I don't know the exact price, but twenty-five cent per litre sounds approximately right. And I do NOT want $1.25 cost per litre. Shave the dollar off. Can the market do this without sucking a government grant?

Being a moron, all that I observe is that when I add ethanol to my gasoline is that the fuel needle on my gas guage goes from full to empty in just a few miles, maybe a day or two in winter-driving, around town in Regina or Winnipeg.

I like full fuel-tanks. I like fuel economy. I like fuel efficiency. I dislike spending money, and I hate going to the filling-station. Ethanol-blended gasoline so far has been a big rip-off. The only benefit to ethanol-blended fuel is that the ethanol keeps the fuel-line from freezing shut in bitter cold. A frozen fuel-line means the motor vehicle won't keep running, and it means the motor won't start in the morning. Frozen fuel-lines are a big problem in winter, especially in Regina and Winnipeg.

End of story about ethanol: The price of ethanol is not nice because ethanol is a low-energy fuel. Ethanol is a joke.

[lektrode]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

I stumbled onto this this a few months ago and thought to myself, "this has got to be either a scam or this century's Model T." I am really, really hoping it is at least half as good as promised because that is going to do great things for not only America, but humanity. So long as you don't live in a country that derives its income on oil, because your economy will collapse. Other than that, it will be universally great and, importantly, completely carbon-neutral.

yes - would seem if they can get the process right (and 'keep the genie in the bottle' so it doesnt release some sort of plague) and keep the envirofacists happy/restrained - this could end up being a good news form of 'soilant green' for our transport needs - as xpat(?) expounds upon in his movie (finally got round to that last nite, about 1/2 way thru) we need liquid fuels for the foreseable future (at least til we can get 500-700 nuke stations up and running for all the electric cars that we _might_ be buying sometime in the future - if uncle sam dont run out of subsidy bux trying to pay for the banksters bonus billions and boomers meds)

we got a promising operation underway out here: http://cellana.com/ one of the _few_ industrial options that has serious potential to create some jobs out this way... just hope it isnt running on O'stimulous bux that will blow away soon as the congressional breeze shifts....

[lektrode]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

The only benefit to ethanol-blended fuel is that the ethanol keeps the fuel-line from freezing shut in bitter cold. A frozen fuel-line means the motor vehicle won't keep running, and it means the motor won't start in the morning.

maybe - as long as you dont get stale fuel that has a 'phase shift'
i used to run diesel cars, had several incidents getting a halftank of water that will just murder a purrfectly good cruise into ski country - and still hear about boaters who get phase-shafted by this chemical nightmare

i mean if they were _trying_ to sabotage our fuel systems and force us all to become vegetarians, do ya think a better plan could've been devised?

rode the jet next to a rancher from AUS the other day, he sez meat prices are already skyrocketing down under - he noted as well that the herds in the US have been culled by the millions over the past few years and eye also saw last week where the numbers of calfs for the upcoming years production are at the lowest levels since 1958?

Frozen fuel-lines are a big problem in winter, especially in Regina and Winnipeg.

End of story about ethanol: The price of ethanol is not nice because ethanol is a low-energy fuel. Ethanol is a joke.

biggest ag subsidy/rippoff of all time - while at same time agribiz incomes are at all time highs?

while We The People get stuck paying thru the nose for table food and fill our tanks to get to work?

orwell must be proud.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

The energy plan is: atomic power, natural gas, up-graded oil from the tar sands in Alberta, and hydro-electricity from dams. End of story.

Until the atomic power plants and hydro-electric dams are constructed and operating, nat-gas will be the transition fuel. Transportation fuel will be supplied with up-graded oil from Alberta.

[flintlock]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

The devil is in the details as they say. One thing for sure, in an "evil" capitalist economy, if this idea has legs, someone will prove it one way or another and make it happen. It won't just be discussed endlessly on internet forums. Beware of new technologies that hang around for years with no apparent progress. I'm not saying this is one, just saying follow the money. Smart money will go there if it is feasible.

[c1ue]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

So you're saying it requires capital similar to the petroleum industry? How is that a pipe dream?

For one thing, covering millions of acres with bio-reactors would cost a hell of a lot more money than drilling thousands of oil wells or even building a half dozen oil pipelines.

Where do you get the E. coli from? In the article they talk about gen enginered cyanobacteria, i.e. blue-green algae.

The original article spoke of E. Coli - now this one talks about cyanobacteria. The earlier article posted in the previous thread:

A brave new world of fossil fuels on demand

NEIL REYNOLDS
From Monday's Globe and Mail

In September, a privately held and highly secretive U.S. biotech company named Joule Unlimited received a patent for “a proprietary organism” – a genetically adapted E. coli bacterium – that feeds solely on carbon dioxide and excretes liquid hydrocarbons: diesel fuel, jet fuel and gasoline. This breakthrough technology, the company says, will deliver renewable supplies of liquid fossil fuel almost anywhere on Earth, in essentially unlimited quantity and at an energy-cost equivalent of $30 (U.S.) a barrel of crude oil. It will deliver, the company says, “fossil fuels on demand.”

We’re not talking “biofuels” – not, at any rate, in the usual sense of the word. The Joule technology requires no “feedstock,” no corn, no wood, no garbage, no algae. Aside from hungry, gene-altered micro-organisms, it requires only carbon dioxide and sunshine to manufacture crude. And water: whether fresh, brackish or salt. With these “inputs,” it mimics photosynthesis, the process by which green leaves use solar energy to convert carbon dioxide into organic compounds. Indeed, the company describes its manufacture of fossil fuels as “artificial photosynthesis.”

Joule says it now has “a library” of fossil-fuel organisms at work in its Massachusetts labs, each engineered to produce a different fuel. It has “proven the process,” has produced ethanol (for example) at a rate equivalent to 10,000 U.S. gallons an acre a year. It anticipates that this yield could hit 25,000 gallons an acre a year when scaled for commercial production, equivalent to roughly 800 barrels of crude an acre a year...

...Joule says its “solar converter” technology makes the manufacture of liquid fossil fuels 50 times as efficient as conventional biofuel production – and eliminates as much as 90 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions. “Requiring only sunlight and waste C0{-2},” it says, “[this] technology can produce virtually unlimited quantities of fossil fuels with zero dependence on raw materials, agricultural land, crops or fresh water. It ends the hazards of oil exploration and oil production. It takes us to the unthinkable: liquid hydrocarbons on demand.”...

...Joule acknowledges its reluctance to fully explain its “solar converter.” CEO Bill Sims told Biofuels Digest, an online biofuels news service, that secrecy has been essential for competitive reasons. “Some time soon,” he said, “what we are doing will become clear.” Although astonishing in its assertions, Joule gains credibility from its co-founder: George Church, the Harvard Medical School geneticist who helped initiate the Human Genome Project in 1984...

Another red flag - changing organisms... E. Coli doesn't equate to cyanobacteria.

As noted in the previous thread, it seems possible to install cyanobacteria photosynthesis into an E. Coli, but the problem remains of converting said energy into hydrocarbons.

[Sharky]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

Here's a link to a recent paper about the work being done by Joule:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html

The top pathway in the diagram below is the one they're using (note: cyanobacteria, not E. Coli); the other one is the old way, based on algae.





This is not necessarily inconsistent with getting a patent on a new E. Coli-based organism. The use or existence of one does not rule out the existence of the other.

[stetts]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

Dear Starving Steve,

You got it. Clear, simple, and can be done. I've no idea why this is so hard to understand. Thanks.

Stetts

[Ghent12]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

For one thing, covering millions of acres with bio-reactors would cost a hell of a lot more money than drilling thousands of oil wells or even building a half dozen oil pipelines.

I don't doubt that. But what of refineries? Evidently the product of this needs minimal or no refinement. Regardless, I doubt the change in infrastructure requirement will be dissimilar to what it was for oil infrastructure supplanting the horse and buggy. However, instead of being an improvement on prior infrastructure, it may very well be a necessity to switch to this technology or similar.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

The top-end for solar is 2 calories per square centimetre per minute. And to get the 2 cal, you have to be in space, outside the Earth's atmosphere. In a desert, you will be closer to 1 cal. per square centimetre per min. ...

Steve, you throw that number out in every solar energy thread, and you can count on me to rebut every time.

Well accepted data show PV insolation (less than total insolation) in the great lakes region is about 4kWhr/sq meter/day, average. That's 3,440,202 calories per day, or 39 cal per second average including the night time when it's dark.

You are just factually wrong on this one. You may see my source data here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Us...al_may2004.jpg

I think a gallon of diesel fuel contains about 145,000 BTU. Slogging through the arithmetic shows that at 100% conversion, you could create more than 135,000 gallons of diesel in a year with the average energy that falls on an acre in Ohio. 15,000 gal per year is plausible, thermodynamically. It's less than 10% conversion efficiency.

There's a thousand reasons this new concept might fail, but lack of input energy isn't one of them.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

There is no time for hope and for wishful thinking about inventions. We will develop what we know works well, and forget about the dreamers and their maybes. There was time for wishful thinking perhaps in 1973 after the first oil shock, but now is the time for action. We will do what works, and what works well: atomic power projects, fracking for natural-gas and oil, upgraded oil from tar sands in Alberta, and large-scale hydro-electric dams........ Game-over for the eco-bunch, and their game was forty years of delay, lies, fear-mongering, and lawsuits.

[c1ue]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

Here's a link to a recent paper about the work being done by Joule:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html

The top pathway in the diagram below is the one they're using (note: cyanobacteria, not E. Coli); the other one is the old way, based on algae.

To flatter with imitation (Far Side):

sunlight + CO2 + water -> (Then a Miracle Occurs) -> diesel



Maybe it can happen, but then again, there are gigantic hurdles to have a single celled organism create diesel from nothing - which is exactly what the previous thread talked about.

It seems far too much like the mythical nanobots in science fiction: they can do anything, anytime, anywhere, and anyhow.

Great if true, but this type of talk stirs up every single alarm I have.

I don't doubt that. But what of refineries? Evidently the product of this needs minimal or no refinement. Regardless, I doubt the change in infrastructure requirement will be dissimilar to what it was for oil infrastructure supplanting the horse and buggy. However, instead of being an improvement on prior infrastructure, it may very well be a necessity to switch to this technology or similar.

I would actually think this product would require more refining.

Imagine this: you get an unholy slurry of growth medium, live and dead Cyanobacteria/E. Coli, various bits of organic byproducts (yes, even bacteria poop), water, CO2, and some diesel mixed in.

Is this easier to separate out and convert into burnable fuel than a barrel of oil?

What about the organic waste - even in the scenario where the 'diesel' floats up and can be skimmed off?

If you've done any work in a laboratory involving growth media, growth media and waste containing growth media are highly dangerous. All kinds of stuff grow there.

Well accepted data show PV insolation (less than total insolation) in the great lakes region is about 4kWhr/sq meter/day, average. That's 3,440,202 calories per day, or 39 cal per second average including the night time when it's dark.

Actually since SS is talking about square cm, and your number is square meters, the result is pretty close.

The error must lie elsewhere.

[Sharky]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

Maybe it can happen, but then again, there are gigantic hurdles to have a single celled organism create diesel from nothing - which is exactly what the previous thread talked about.

Skepticism at this stage is certainly prudent.

They did raise $30M in Apr 2010, so apparently their story was convincing enough to their investors to get that far.

I skimmed their patent (#7,785,861 Hyperphotosynthetic Organisms) -- amazingly complex, apparently involving the potential incorporation of hundreds of genes from multiple organisms. Of course there is undoubtedly a big leap between having something working in the lab and scaling it out, and costs can easily escalate -- although they certainly appear to have given that subject considerable thought.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Biodiesel from photosynthesis?

Steve, you throw that number out in every solar energy thread, and you can count on me to rebut every time.

Well accepted data show PV insolation (less than total insolation) in the great lakes region is about 4kWhr/sq meter/day, average. That's 3,440,202 calories per day, or 39 cal per second average including the night time when it's dark.

You are just factually wrong on this one. You may see my source data here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Us...al_may2004.jpg

I think a gallon of diesel fuel contains about 145,000 BTU. Slogging through the arithmetic shows that at 100% conversion, you could create more than 135,000 gallons of diesel in a year with the average energy that falls on an acre in Ohio. 15,000 gal per year is plausible, thermodynamically. It's less than 10% conversion efficiency.

There's a thousand reasons this new concept might fail, but lack of input energy isn't one of them.

Thanks for doing the math, this engineer was too busy/lazy to track down the numbers, and I stand corrected about the 15,000 gal/year/acre theoretical being too high.