The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

In my opinion that was a long time ago. Probably ended when LBJ came in. Around that time if not sooner. The more I read of US history in the 20th century, the more I see my old perceptions were just wrong. We were not always the good guys. Vietnam, South and Central America, the Middle East. Some could be attributed to an overreaction to the Red Scare, but I see most of that was merely a rationalization to go out and make money. US corporations had a big influence in our dealings with South America and the Middle East especially. Some really bad stuff took place than most Americans have never heard of. Not that the US is alone in this kind of thing, but I just always expected better I guess.

I think it goes back a lot further than that. In reverse chronological order:

The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Ein großer Krieg beschert einem Land drei Armeen - eine Armee von Krüppeln, eine Armee von Trauernden und eine Armee von Dieben.

Translation: A great war brings a country three armies - an army of cripples, an army of mourners, and an army of thieves

War begun without good provision of money beforehand for going through with it is but as a breathing of strength and blast that will quickly pass away. Coin is the sinews of war.

Nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam.

Translation: Endless money forms the sinews of war.

Item 32 from the Code of Hammurabi works too. It's at least as old as history.

[jk]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp...War#Atrocities

[c1ue]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Faith may be wallpaper, but the church wields real power. After the fall of communism, the power vacuum was quickly filled by the catholic church. A chaplain took place of a political officer, attached to every military unit. In elementary schools, religion (what you would call here 'Sunday school') is taught several times a week (by a priest paid for by people's taxes), just as the virtues of socialism used to be taught before. Tax breaks for the catholic church are common as are direct giveaways of land and buildings. Furthermore, elections normally take place on Sundays, and priests are not prohibited from pushing their political agenda. So, imagine who the sheeple are going to vote for after a Sunday mass, where the priest equates some of the candidates with a Devil.
All this gives the catholic church in Poland real economic and political power.

How much of this was the Catholic Church of Poland, and how much was having a Polish Pope (i.e. Pope John Paul II and the Vatican)?

Because the same sure didn't hold true in any other ex-Soviet states.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

How much of this was the Catholic Church of Poland, and how much was having a Polish Pope (i.e. Pope John Paul II and the Vatican)?

Because the same sure didn't hold true in any other ex-Soviet states.

I think it's somewhat similar in Lithuania. They vote on Sundays too. So does Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_C...m_in_Lithuania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_C...ism_in_Croatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungari...atholic_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_...atholic_Church

Other places are Orthodox or Muslim:

[chr5648]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Faith may be wallpaper, but the church wields real power. After the fall of communism, the power vacuum was quickly filled by the catholic church. A chaplain took place of a political officer, attached to every military unit. In elementary schools, religion (what you would call here 'Sunday school') is taught several times a week (by a priest paid for by people's taxes), just as the virtues of socialism used to be taught before. Tax breaks for the catholic church are common as are direct giveaways of land and buildings. Furthermore, elections normally take place on Sundays, and priests are not prohibited from pushing their political agenda. So, imagine who the sheeple are going to vote for after a Sunday mass, where the priest equates some of the candidates with a Devil.
All this gives the catholic church in Poland real economic and political power.

Oh yes, the big bad old Catholic Church, is that the one who promotes meekness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, and other subversive principles. The major reason why liberalism has been able to take root in the west is precisely because the Catholic Church has lost its traditional values.

Whats your beef against the church? What threat does it pose? Would a church/religion that fought its enemies, and didn't turn the other cheek but, fought aggressively back, suit you better?

[oddlots]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

I try to read a lot of different sources, not only ones which share my views and values. I also have a contrary nature and am naturally skeptical about what the mainstream media presents as a concensus or accepted POV. The concensus media view is/was that the average Joe Egyptian overthrew an oppressive dictator. No discussion of the what role radical Islamacists played or could play in the aftermath.

To my mind I think there's been nothing but a constant hand-wringing about the Islamist threat. What seems conspicuously absent is a non-hedged or non-begrudging MORE POWER TO YOU from those of us that take for granted, for instance, that our children will not be beaten to a pulp for exposing endemic police corruption - the proximate outrage that started the ball rolling in Egypt. And I mean to a pulp (I've seen the photos.)

What depresses me about this is that the issues at the heart of the conflicts in the Middle East I think are actually very easy to surmise and should be transparent to us, especially a group that is generally quite outraged by criminality, corruption, self-dealing etc. etc. in the world of finance and the shabby economic theories that dress it up.

Instead there's an endless kvetching about how it's all going to end badly etc. etc.

Why?

[oddlots]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Just got onto re-reading the rest of your reply:

Plus, some of the ugly parts were left out or glossed over, like the gang rape of reporter Lara Logan by a mob chanting "Jew!" And that happened during the celebration after Mubarek left, so I'm not sure you can pin it on his thugs.

It's hardly been glossed over has it? (If it had been you wouldn't have the "gloss" to share with us, no?)

First, serious as the incident you cited is, it was not a gang rape by any stretch of the imagination. (Why be so incendiary?) And I can assure you that any mob chanting "Jew" - if that was the case - was not not the same mob that peacefully withstood days and days of aggression and provocation without lynching any of their captured tormenters or falling back onto mob-thinking (much less justice.) The fact that Coptic christians were conspicuously included and protected by this other "mob" - the protesters - throughout the mayhem and that religious-based hatred was explicitly rejected regularly as a divisive tool of the dictatorship, these were both defining characteristics of the movement. As was the inclusion of women in the movement as well.

So why do you feel so certain that the Lara Logan incident says something about this moment in the history of the middle east (as opposed to every other)?

[Master Shake]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

http://solariasun.com/2541/lara-logan-assault/

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...g-jew-jew.html

Sounds like a gang rape to me. Why did the media try to soft peddle it by calling it a "sexual assault" and leave out the part about chanting "Jew?"

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

http://solariasun.com/2541/lara-logan-assault/

Sounds to me like it was a very bad situation perpetrated by some very bad people. According to the link above, it does not sound endemic though.

Logan was dragged away and raped repeatedly while her security team struggled to reach her. Egyptian women who saw what was happening got the attention of a group of armed soldiers who came to her rescue.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...g-jew-jew.html

Sounds like a gang rape to me. Why did the media try to soft peddle it by calling it a "sexual assault" and leave out the part about chanting "Jew?"

Firstly, it sounds like deplorable violence. Generally, I think there's nothing sexual about hurting someone to the point they need hospitalization.

But I don't really trust atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com. It's partisan BS in a nutshell. It's not even libertarian. Although, I do admit, I did learn the word "mosquestrocity," which should improve my GRE scores, should I choose to go back for another degree...

Should I believe a site that says Obama's an anti-Semitic president who's at war with America to turn it Muslim and preparing us for the New World Order one world government because he hates freedom?

Nobody should believe that. It's too damned complicated. And I'm around too many old Yankees not to know that when a story gets too complicated, it's a lie. Too bad for Nasser, nobody told him:

“The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make the rest of us wonder at the possibility that we might be missing something.”

Nope. It's just a lie.

Do I think Obama's going to suck all of the money out of the middle class he can and give it to the FIRE industry because his banker and insurance friends, advisors, federal reserve board members, and Treasury employees love money? Absolutely. There's no conspiracy, or FEMA death camp. There is only greed.

Anyways, take a look at the front page:

[don]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

I think it goes back a lot further than that. In reverse chronological order:








Translation: A great war brings a country three armies - an army of cripples, an army of mourners, and an army of thieves


Translation: Endless money forms the sinews of war.

Item 32 from the Code of Hammurabi works too. It's at least as old as history.

Thanks for quoting Smedley. Just finished a new title in the pulp history series, Devil Dog. It's an illustrated treatment of Butler's amazing career.

[flintlock]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

I think it goes back a lot further than that

While I agree this stuff has been going on a long time, I was referring to the time being when the OVERALL "high ground" in the world was still probably with the USA. Certainly things were on the wrong track by then though. By the mid 60s, there was no longer any doubt. Morality is a relative thing. You have to look at what the other guy was doing to make any judgment on this. Before the 50s we had Hitler, Stalin, etc. Completely different league. That doesn't excuse the stuff you pointed out of course.

[flintlock]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

To my mind I think there's been nothing but a constant hand-wringing about the Islamist threat. What seems conspicuously absent is a non-hedged or non-begrudging MORE POWER TO YOU from those of us that take for granted, for instance, that our children will not be beaten to a pulp for exposing endemic police corruption - the proximate outrage that started the ball rolling in Egypt. And I mean to a pulp (I've seen the photos.)

What depresses me about this is that the issues at the heart of the conflicts in the Middle East I think are actually very easy to surmise and should be transparent to us, especially a group that is generally quite outraged by criminality, corruption, self-dealing etc. etc. in the world of finance and the shabby economic theories that dress it up.

Instead there's an endless kvetching about how it's all going to end badly etc. etc.

Why?

History tells us many of these things end badly. It's not so irrational to think human behavior will repeat itself. But I agree, there is an element of hysteria in the US when it comes to dealing with anything Islamic.

Anyone see the FRONTLINE story on Egypt last night?



One protester mentioned he was afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood. Others seem not to worry about it. There are different factions within the Brotherhood. A lot of drama still to be played out here. I tend to worry about any political system based on religion. That's another lesson from history.

[flintlock]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Someone's getting nervous

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/news-ar...ntid=156221007

Saudi king back home, orders $37 bln in handouts
By Ulf LaessingRIYADH (Reuters) - Saudi King Abdullah returned home on Wednesday after a three-month medical absence and unveiled benefits for Saudis worth some $37 billion (23 billion pounds) in an apparent bid to insulate the world's top oil exporter from an Arab protest wave.

[c1ue]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Instead there's an endless kvetching about how it's all going to end badly etc. etc.

Why?

Because in every other historical situation it has ended badly.

The overthrow of Mubarak isn't going to fix the Egyptian economy. The world economy isn't doing well, and it is ludicrous to think that somehow removing one figurehead will miraculously transform Egypt into a 1st, or even 2nd world nation overnight.

There will need to be a decade or more of sacrifice, of preparation, of planning - and in the meantime there will be huge suffering. Likely even more than the last years of Mubarak.

It is exactly this suffering in which the ideologue arises.

How do you think the old monarchy was originally overthrown?

[goodrich4bk]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

he was kept off the stage by Sheik al-Qaradawi's security.

[/QUOTE]

So whose stage was it? If Jon Stewart, Katie Couric or just about anybody other than a Palin fan was similarly kept off the stage at a Sarah Palin event, would Al Jezzera be justified in claiming that as proof of Palin's intollerance? I don't have enough information here to know the significance, if any, of this story.