Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

[flintlock]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

A lot of people caught up in the debt trap were the "gullible idiots" people are referring to here. But a lot, and I mean a lot, were people who should know better. Every day I see first hand, college educated, well paid professionals who have had their ass handed to them because they just had to have it all, and right now. This has as much to do with a lack of financial maturity than anything else. Just a few minutes ago I watched as my neighbor drove up the street in his 2010 Lexus with the donut spare he's had on it for 3 months. He lost his job and boom, the guy can't afford a new tire. Ridiculous. Americans are fools for the most part. And not that bright to boot.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Can you clarify what you mean by the governor will lower the taxes on bankers by 10%??
Is there some specific item in the legislation that says or implies this?

Charliebrown, I was using hyperbole. Since you asked; though, here are some of the more outrageous items in this wonderful bill:

This bill increases the amount of state public debt that may be contracted to refund any unpaid indebtedness used to finance tax−supported or self−amortizing facilities from $309,000,000 to $474,000,000. Such refunded debt must be contracted before July 1, 2011.

Woohoo, more public debt.

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b). (2) If there is any outstanding public debt used to finance the acquisition, construction, or improvement of any plant that is sold under sub. (1), the department shall deposit a sufficient amount of the net proceeds from the sale of the property in the bond security and redemption fund under s. 18.09 to repay the principal and pay the interest on the debt, and any premium due upon refunding of the debt. If the property was acquired, constructed, or improved with federal financial assistance, the department shall repay to the federal government any of the net proceeds required by federal law.

Nothing like giving state-owned property to your buddies.

49.45 (8v) INCENTIVE−BASED PHARMACY PAYMENT SYSTEM. The department shall establish a system of payment to pharmacies for legend and over−the−counter drugs provided to recipients of medical assistance that has financial incentives for pharmacists who perform services that result in savings to the medical assistance program. Under this system, the department shall establish a schedule of fees that is designed to ensure that any incentive payments made are equal to or less than the documented savings unless otherwise provided by the department by rule promulgated under sub. (2m) (c). The department may discontinue the system established under this subsection if the department determines, after performance of a study, that payments to pharmacists under the system exceed the documented savings under the system.

Wouldn't want to forget pharma.


Now, Politifact already debunked his small business jobs bill claims as false. But it costs $64M-$80M. The column on the right shows the amount of tax credits expected per company by income category.

He created the deficit in January by spending:
$64M on a jobs bill that does not offer enough relief to create jobs, but functionally cuts corporate taxes by a very marginal amount.
$48M for private health savings accounts
$25M for tax incentives for business development (these are given out based on regulations and the decision of an administrator - they are not offered to everyone accross the board).

So there you have it. It's a crisis manufactured. Three bills passed that created the hole in January. A new bill to fill it (and dig it deeper too), while giving away state property in no bid contracts in February.

It's easy to cry broke when you give away the piggy-bank.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

And I agree that the Banks, if anyone, should also be getting a visit from the mob. But that doesn't give everyone else a free ticket out of this mess. More focus should be on identifying the culprits and trying to figure out how to get some of the loot back, if that's even possible.

Agreed. The only point I was making was that your foolish neighbor with the donut on the Lexus will pay. There is no use dwelling on it. The banks so far have not. They have been paid. Where's the pound of flesh from the other side of the scale?

[Stroebel]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

This is not a class warfare thing. EVERYONE and every business will "tighten their belt".

I've had a birds-eye view of the capitol square as the demonstrations have unfolded over the last week. I've gone down and walked among the people who are demonstrating, and have spoken with them. I've talked with them about the hard work that they've done and the hardships they've endured, and their willingness to make more financial sacrifices to safeguard Wisconsin's fiscal position.

On Saturday, I saw the folks carrying "Americans for Prosperity" signs and Gadsden flags and their grievances about teet-sucking and being broke. They cheer on Governor Walker, who says that there will be no compromise, not even about the right to collective bargain. A man who will not sit down and talk with anyone. A man who is trying to create an atmosphere of crisis so that he can push through a radical bill without meaningful debate. A man who can't bend his neck to nod at Wisconsin's proud labor history and the many sacrifices for labor rights (radical things like Workers' compensation and weekends off), including lives taken, made by past Wisconsin workers.

I'm not a public employee. I'm not a member of a labor union. But do I respect these people? Hell yes, I do.

It's an absolute shame what Governor Walker is trying to do. And this is absolutely Class Warfare.

[c1ue]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

If they were defrauded, then the fraudsters must be jailed. Otherwise, yes, buyer beware. Unfortunately, the fraudsters will not be jailed and a great amount of sympathy still exists for financial idiots.

I think you miss the point.

What I was illustrating was that there was such a powerful societal push towards housing, that it takes a particularly strong willed and/or contrarian individual to fight it.

Sure, people can and did so - as I did and I'm guessing you and Master Shake did.

But equally so, there are far more who listened to the shills and MSM. Who heard the stories about Uncle Bob who made a fortune buying and selling houses. Who saw the neighbors move out to a fancy McMansion and start driving Mercedes.

If this happens to an individual due to the actions of another individual or group of individuals in a one-off situation, it would be called a con job - i.e. fraud.

What do you call it when it is most of the society you live in?

Bill Black's control fraud in mortgage lending is another good example: it isn't that a mortgage banker couldn't be honest - certainly some were and are.

It is that the environment created by the control fraud encouraged, nay, rewarded those who were dishonest and criminal.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

And this is absolutely Class Warfare.

He's only been there two months...and look where the state is at.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

I think you miss the point.

What I was illustrating was that there was such a powerful societal push towards housing, that it takes a particularly strong willed and/or contrarian individual to fight it.

Sure, people can and did so - as I did and I'm guessing you and Master Shake did.

But equally so, there are far more who listened to the shills and MSM. Who heard the stories about Uncle Bob who made a fortune buying and selling houses. Who saw the neighbors move out to a fancy McMansion and start driving Mercedes.

If this happens to an individual due to the actions of another individual or group of individuals in a one-off situation, it would be called a con job - i.e. fraud.

What do you call it when it is most of the society you live in?

Bill Black's control fraud in mortgage lending is another good example: it isn't that a mortgage banker couldn't be honest - certainly some were and are.

It is that the environment created by the controling group - bank fraud encouraged, nay, rewarded those who were dishonest and criminal.

C1ue, I get you 100%.

But this point matters;
Either they are for us, or against us. I don't care who you voted for. Shake could go either way, I don't know. He knows who's guilty, but he still wants to put it on the chin of the girl who met Morgan Stanley (or Roethlisberger) head on? I know better. America knows better. She knows when it hurts. She will still cry out. We just have to hear her.

Will you hear the cry? The time for fence-sitting is over. You're with the bankers or for the people. The people work 80/20, public and private. You think they care which end of the split they stick it into? Shades of grey are for yesterday. They're how Obama got elected.

Whine about people taking loans they can't afford, or stand against Goldman and its enablers. They'll respond to this by telling you that there's a middle ground. There used to be.

There's not now. They will take your money and get rich, or they won't.

Now's the time. Get with the future, or get against it. It's up to you. It's up to your kids. Just don't let hate crowd your judgement. Wisconsin is a more beautiful place than either John Kerry, with his dirty Boston brownstone attitude and tax dodging habits, or Rush Limbaugh, with his pill-soaked, fat opinion could destroy.

Wisconsin, it's your state. Take care of it. Screw Walker. You survived 2 world wars. You survived 1 civil war. You survived the French and Indian war...You will survive him. Take him out.

[oddlots]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

"Fundamental right to bargain" was mentioned in the WaPo article. All I can say to that is when groups have rights, individuals don't, so let's keep the "right to bargain" where it belongs--at the level of the individual.

Calling in the National Guard over labor issues? Since when is that news...

I suggest you look into how Ayn Rand died.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Whine about people taking loans they can't afford, or stand against Goldman. They'll respond to this by telling you that there's a middle ground. There used to be.

There's not now. They will take your money and get rich, or they won't.

Now's the time. Get with the future, or get against it. It's up to you. it's up to your kids. Just don't let hate crowd your judgement. Wisconsin is a more beautiful place than either John Kerry, with his dirty Boston attitude and tax dodging habits, or Rush Limbaugh, with his pill-soaked, fat opinion could destroy.

Wisconsin, it's your state. Take care of it. Screw Walker. You survived 2 world wars. You survived 1 civil war. You survived the French and Indian war...You will survive him. Take him out.

Wow!

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Wow!

In the last week, people from dozens of countries have ordered pizzas for 20-somethings sleeping in a marble building. The 20 somethings polish the marble floor every night to look good for the camera and so they do not look like hippies. Many don't even have one of these jobs. They just know that Walker lies.

He takes from you to give to his friends. He sells valuable state property in no-bid contrats. He manufactures crises to empower himself. He takes from the middle class to enrich himself. He has only been there two months.

This is about splitting the middle class. It's divide and conquer plain and simple. While they're out fighting each other, he's free to loot the state. He'll give away tens or hundreds of millions in cash and property in return for tens or hundreds of thousands in campaign contributions.

The media will draw public focus away from what he's really up to. The new debt hole he's manufacturing in the bill goes unreported. The giveaways to special interests go unreported. The no-bid sale of state-owned power plants goes unreported.

Meanwhile, he satisfies the people's need to punish someone for their plight. He looks like a budget hawk.

The formula is not that complicated. The text is right there in the bill. The truth is barely even below the surface. He's after $ and power. That's it. He doesn't care about you. He doesn't care about unions. He doesn't care about business. He just cares about $ and power for himself.

[charliebrown]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

The 64, and 48 are probably OK. 25 for special interests I don't like, and I don't like selling of vital infrastructure to private interests. I tried reading the pharma section and my mind boggled. what?? I live in chicago, if you are unaware check out the parking meter deal, and the chicago skyway deal. I believe the city also sold of midway airport. I have not heard about spiraling fees, or crappy service there. It probably just hasn't hit the news yet. You know when a company sells off its productive assets it is not a good sign.

Thanks for keeping giving me details.

[walenk]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Have you seen the Forbes article about the Koch's involvement?
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...public-unions/

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

C1ue, I get you 100%.

But this point matters;
Either they are for us, or against us. I don't care who you voted for. Shake could go either way, I don't know. He knows who's guilty, but he still wants to put it on the chin of the girl who met Morgan Stanley (or Roethlisberger) head on? I know better. America knows better. She knows when it hurts. She will still cry out. We just have to hear her.

Will you hear the cry? The time for fence-sitting is over. You're with the bankers or for the people. The people work 80/20, public and private. You think they care which end of the split they stick it into? Shades of grey are for yesterday. They're how Obama got elected.

Whine about people taking loans they can't afford, or stand against Goldman and its enablers. They'll respond to this by telling you that there's a middle ground. There used to be.

There's not now. They will take your money and get rich, or they won't.

Now's the time. Get with the future, or get against it. It's up to you. It's up to your kids. Just don't let hate crowd your judgement. Wisconsin is a more beautiful place than either John Kerry, with his dirty Boston brownstone attitude and tax dodging habits, or Rush Limbaugh, with his pill-soaked, fat opinion could destroy.

Wisconsin, it's your state. Take care of it. Screw Walker. You survived 2 world wars. You survived 1 civil war. You survived the French and Indian war...You will survive him. Take him out.

You make my point: you see the world in a very Manichean matter. Yer either fer us or agin' us. Reality isn't that binary.

As for Wisconsin, I know little about Walker, but as I think that public employees should not be allowed to unionize, I hope he succeeds. That doesn't mean I don't want the banksters prosecuted and thrown in jail, but I don't see the issue as a twofer. Let me know when the unions start pushing for draconian immigration reform. Then, I'll know they really give a shit about American workers instead of funneling money towards the Dems and promoting the growth of the welfare/warfare state.

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

C1ue, I get you 100%.

But this point matters;
Either they are for us, or against us. I don't care who you voted for. Shake could go either way, I don't know. He knows who's guilty, but he still wants to put it on the chin of the girl who met Morgan Stanley (or Roethlisberger) head on? I know better. America knows better. She knows when it hurts. She will still cry out. We just have to hear her.

Will you hear the cry? The time for fence-sitting is over. You're with the bankers or for the people. The people work 80/20, public and private. You think they care which end of the split they stick it into? Shades of grey are for yesterday. They're how Obama got elected.

Whine about people taking loans they can't afford, or stand against Goldman and its enablers. They'll respond to this by telling you that there's a middle ground. There used to be.

There's not now. They will take your money and get rich, or they won't.

Now's the time. Get with the future, or get against it. It's up to you. It's up to your kids. Just don't let hate crowd your judgement. Wisconsin is a more beautiful place than either John Kerry, with his dirty Boston brownstone attitude and tax dodging habits, or Rush Limbaugh, with his pill-soaked, fat opinion could destroy.

Wisconsin, it's your state. Take care of it. Screw Walker. You survived 2 world wars. You survived 1 civil war. You survived the French and Indian war...You will survive him. Take him out.

P.S. Take Walker out? I heard today the protesters have signs with Walker in the crosshairs, calling him a Nazi. I thought such imagery and rhetoric promoted violence. Whatever happened to civil discourse? And no mention of the fact that the protesters are overwhelmingly white and angry, just like those crazy Tea Party bastards. I guess the mock outrage exhibited by the usual suspects about civil discourse depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Stroebel]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

P.S. Take Walker out? I heard today the protesters have signs with Walker in the crosshairs . . .

Some really interesting points are being made in the above discussion, including by Master Shake. But don't get distracted by a few outliers.

During my time on the square, I have seen various references to Nazis during the past week by a very small minority of protestors. I haven't seen any cross hairs though. Emotions are running hot, so I wouldn't rule it out, but that's a Tea Party gimmick, so almost no one on the labor side will go there. There will always be some fringe nut jobs in any movement . . . but if a movement starts to become defined by veiled and not-so-veiled threats that it's time to get worried.

The protests have been heated at times, but peaceful. Both protestors and the police have managed things very well.

As for public unions, I have only my experience as a Wisconsinite to rely on. My personal experience has shown Wisconsin public servants to be hard-working, down-to-earth people. I am willing to venture that any available studies will confirm that we have had great public services in Wisconsin. Both past management and the unions share credit for this.