Are the American people obsolete?

[Starving Steve]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

I am for open-borders, free-trade, globalism, liberalism, tolerance, learning new languages, welcoming immigrants, and making money. Liberty is about making money and being free to do whatever you want, wherever you want, and to be free to live wherever you want, say what you want, and to think what you want.

[Jeff]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Jeez, and I thought it was just a tip of the cap to Swift's "A Modest Proposal". Nobody else read this as satire?

[ASH]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Jeez, and I thought it was just a tip of the cap to Swift's "A Modest Proposal". Nobody else read this as satire?

Obviously he was writing satirically -- and in the tradition of A Modest Proposal -- with respect to the solution to the situation. But in my opinion, he was not writing satirically when describing the situation, and how it had come to pass. In fact, I more-or-less agree with his real proposed solution, delivered after the satirical recommendation that average Americans emigrate to developing countries to be replaced by non-voting guest workers. What I disagree with is his analysis of the nature of the problem.

[reggie]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Jeez, and I thought it was just a tip of the cap to Swift's "A Modest Proposal". Nobody else read this as satire?

I've found that comedy and satire are frequently used techniques for introducing uncomfortable topics of discussion into society. Yet, irrespective of the entry point, a dialectical process has commenced, which I believe was the primary goal of this article. The question that's on my mind now is what synthesis, to this dialectical discussion, will be supplied by mainstream media? I imagine there will be more than one, depending on the societal subgroup targeted.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

America is economically bankrupt, but the spirit of America, the spirit of freedom and rugged individualism, will never die. The spirit of liberty is a gift that America gave to the world, forever.

[Jay]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

His commitment to liberal ideals however limits his ability to grasp that there are more important things in life than wealth, and those who seek it above all else - whether they have attained it or not - destroy the societies in which they live if they have political power.

My take from the article was that this was one of his main points.

[Jay]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Some of us non-US-citizens, familiar with how the border crossing process into that country has been changing for the past 9 years, think its almost there...

I've actually found visits back to the US to be better in the last 2 years than say the period between 2002-2008.

I no longer feel like I'm in the queue for the slaughterhouse...the US Customs folks appear more friendly, welcoming, and empathetic....it genuinely feels like enough people complained that someone dropped the hammer and improved things...or at least MY perception....admittedly, I clear customs almost always in LAX or San Fran...just my anecdotal experiences.

[Jeff]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Well, what the hell, I'll give it another go. Ash, et al, as a rich American, I'm pretty pissed off at what worship of the wealthy has done to my country. The idea that the rich need to be allowed to coast, so they can grant the little people their crumbs is really antithetical to the entire concept and history of America. Somehow, the idea has crept in that government is the problem (thanks, Ronnie), and rules (regulations) are the problem and that an entirely unfettered free market would lead to a much better outcome for all of use, explicitly in the economic sense and implicitly in the social sense, to the degree that discussion of social outcomes isn't slimed as un-American and somehow socialist.

We live in a remarkable time in the good old US of A, and the dominant thread seems to be shot through with a combination of collective amnesia and ignorance of history. The collapse of the current economic paradigm will lead to a lot of changes in the way we all live here, and I say, it's about time. Somehow being an American has been imbued with an entitlement to have ever lower taxes, ever increasing GDP and ever less intrusive government, while standards of living increase across the board, at least for the hard working, "native" (pronounced Northern and Western European derived) and English speaking citizens. The idea of later retirement, higher taxes or additional social programs apparently drives some to seek solutions at the barrel of a gun. I suggest we could learn a lot by remembering how other nations have faced massive dislocations in the past century or so.

For the Brits, at least the Gerries aren't bombing us, we survived the collapse of our manufacturing base and the NHS is really a pretty good thing.

For the Germans, at least it's not the Third Reich, hyperinflation, the near total physical destruction of our cities or a half-century of collective guilt.

For the Chinese, we did worse under the brutal occupation of the Japanese, not the mention the glorious Cultural Revolution.

And then we have the Americans. Grandpa got to live in a nice neighborhood, with nice neighbors and a new GM car in the driveway every two years, and got better and better jobs over the years. So did Daddy, and so did I and so should my kids.

But in the grander context of history, this kind of happy mistake rarely continues unabated for long, and in fact simply can’t, as it’s unsustainable. Would a 50% reduction in average pay really be so bad? Grandpa or Great-Grandpa might have done more with less in the last Great Depression if we really bothered to look into the facts. Would it kill us to move in with the kids for a few years? Is daily beef on the plate a God-given American birthright? If we couldn't have 1.5 cars per person and a 5,000 square foot house for 2 people, would we all end up in Mad Max land?

No. Historically, to put an absurdly simplistic spin on it, very hard times in the last century seem to produce fascism or the Waltons. I think Americans would do very well to spend 10 years with half the kids working on the CCC or WPA and with marginal taxes on the wealthiest at 70% and up, damn near zero assets not subject to high estate taxes, means testing for Social Security, upping the retirement age to 70, single payer health care and a raft of other things good for all of us, but not necessarily the dream of the leisure class.

I spend a lot of time in Guatemala; in fact I operate a factory there. When you spend half of your time in a country where class warfare is fought with real, live bullets and machetes, you learn to back off from despising the working poor and lionizing the rich. I suspect we'll learn that lesson here, but only after listening to a load of nonsense about the indolent, drug addled poor who failed to have the wisdom and foresight to be born to middle class parents who valued education and hard work.

[Chomsky]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

+∞

[cjppjc]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

You operate a factory in Guatemala? I would be curious, are there tax advantages for an American operating there?

[ASH]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Well, what the hell, I'll give it another go. Ash, et al, as a rich American, I'm pretty pissed off at what worship of the wealthy has done to my country.

I agree with everything you say, but am confused as to its relationship to what I had to say. I don't see your observations as being equivalent to Lind's. I hope you don't think I'm arguing in favor of the dysfunctional values and unrealistic expectations against which you are arguing. Are we somehow in "violent agreement"?

[Jeff]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Ash, in looking for someone to foil, I picked out this nugget :

I'm sympathetic to the message on which Lind closes, but the majority of this essay seems deranged to me. I wonder where he draws the line for his definition of "rich"? He seems to concentrate on demonizing his villains while ignoring the economic context. He may end up in about the right place, but this essay only succeeds as emotional propaganda -- there's zero intellectual content.

...and failed to quote it in my response. Sorry.

[Jeff]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

I really don't know about the tax consequences, as I never bother thinking about them. My tax documents are turned in to my tax attorneys with the instruction that I want to pay at least my fair share and have no interest in any sort of tax avoidance. They in turn file my taxes with the IRS on a timely basis, and all is well with the world. Except that being a wealthy American, I never manage to owe a penny to the IRS nor anyone else and haven't in the last decade, in spite of earning millions of dollars in a myriad of ways. One of these days I ought to look into why that is, but there isn't a lot of motivation to do it.

In my experience, wealthy people complaining that their taxes are too high are pigs, as in the old Wall Street doggerel, "The bulls win, the bears win, and the pigs get slaughtered."

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Are the American people obsolete?

Yawn .. this is just the progress of civilization. Globalization is good for the world. Why are people so against the Chinese having jobs? All we need are some good environmental laws (carbon taxes, etc) and some goods and services taxes so people stop buying crap.