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N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

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  • N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

    Apologies if it's a repost. I searched and didn't see it.


    Interesting commentary:

    "
    To those of us who first encountered the dismal science of economics in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the current debate on fiscal policy in the western world has been – no other word will do – depressing.

    It was said of the Bourbons that they forgot nothing and learned nothing. The same could easily be said of some of today’s latter-day Keynesians. They cannot and never will forget the policy errors made in the US in the 1930s. But they appear to have learned nothing from all that has happened in economic theory since the publication of their bible, John Maynard Keynes’s The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, in 1936.

    ...

    When Franklin Roosevelt became president in 1933, the deficit was already running at 4.7 per cent of GDP. It rose to a peak of 5.6 per cent in 1934. The federal debt burden rose only slightly – from 40 to 45 per cent of GDP – prior to the outbreak of the second world war. It was the war that saw the US (and all the other combatants) embark on fiscal expansions of the sort we have seen since 2007. So what we are witnessing today has less to do with the 1930s than with the 1940s: it is world war finance without the war.

    ...

    Today’s war-like deficits are being run at a time when the US is heavily reliant on foreign lenders, not least its rising strategic rival China (which holds 11 per cent of US Treasuries in public hands); at a time when economies are open, so American stimulus can end up benefiting Chinese exporters; and at a time when there is much under-utilised capacity, so that deflation is a bigger threat than inflation.

    Are there precedents for such a combination? Certainly. Long before Keynes was even born, weak governments in countries from Argentina to Venezuela used to experiment with large peace-time deficits to see if there were ways of avoiding hard choices. The experiments invariably ended in one of two ways. Either the foreign lenders got fleeced through default, or the domestic lenders got fleeced through inflation. When economies were growing sluggishly, that could be slow in coming. But there invariably came a point when money creation by the central bank triggered an upsurge in inflationary expectations."

    Bold text is mine. Although I don't agree with the third one, thought some of you would be interested.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/270e1a6c-9...44feab49a.html

  • #2
    Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

    Originally posted by Diarmuid
    The "science" of economics, as many of the frameworks we use to understand, comprehend and formulate decisions and action in the "real world", are based on systems of formal deductive logic and so Godel work is applicable to it and many other areas besides, I believe.
    Gödel's work is about as applicable to the (all too limited) mathematics behind economics as quantum mechanics is to figuring out why your computer crashed. Computers are made of sub-atomic particles, aren't they <sarcasm>?

    When you get several layers of organization removed from some base layer, the logic of the base layer has only minimal impact.

    Computers are made of sub-atomic particles, and your computer won't violate the rules of sub-atomic particles. But a mastery of quantum mechanics won't help you figure out how your computer works, or doesn't work, one iota.

    Similarly I can assure you from personal experience that having a mastery of Gödel's work will not help you understand economics one iota.

    P.S. -- This post should be about the 18th post in this thread, not the first. The iTulip vBulletin forum software messed up and put a time stamp on this post about 17 or 18 hours too old. This post is not the first in this thread by any means.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; July 27, 2010, 09:54 PM.
    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

      I like Nail Ferguson and appreciate his argument but what is it but an opposing view of a Mental polarity. To understand what is behind the chaos of Capitalism in the world today we should study the work of the mathematical Kurt Godel and what he called "Metasystems Theory". Godel asserted that when the limits of complexity are reached in any system, one must, through the use of insight, go beyond the limitations of that closed axiomatic system and intuit a system of higher complexity or "Meta-system" which contains the solutions and proofs of the lower ones. Insoluble problems which occur at one level, as a result of the fixed system of propositions at that level, can be easily solved by moving to a new more comprehensive system in which the fixed propositions are more inclusive. The higher or meta-systems are characterized by different laws and principles which contain the solution to problems existing at the lower levels. The consensus of those who have moved beyond the closed mental dogma of our present economic system is that Capitalism is finished. Its opposite, Communism or Socialism, will not replace it. There will be something NEW, a more comprehensive system like Godel describes and it will be more in line with the eternal truths that a genuine spirituality and an enlightened consciousness embrace. This is an evolutionary certainty.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

        Originally posted by alcyone View Post
        I like Nail Ferguson and appreciate his argument but what is it but an opposing view of a Mental polarity. To understand what is behind the chaos of Capitalism in the world today we should study the work of the mathematical Kurt Godel and what he called "Metasystems Theory". Godel asserted that when the limits of complexity are reached in any system, one must, through the use of insight, go beyond the limitations of that closed axiomatic system and intuit a system of higher complexity or "Meta-system" which contains the solutions and proofs of the lower ones. Insoluble problems which occur at one level, as a result of the fixed system of propositions at that level, can be easily solved by moving to a new more comprehensive system in which the fixed propositions are more inclusive. The higher or meta-systems are characterized by different laws and principles which contain the solution to problems existing at the lower levels. The consensus of those who have moved beyond the closed mental dogma of our present economic system is that Capitalism is finished. Its opposite, Communism or Socialism, will not replace it. There will be something NEW, a more comprehensive system like Godel describes and it will be more in line with the eternal truths that a genuine spirituality and an enlightened consciousness embrace. This is an evolutionary certainty.
        This sounds like gobblygook.

        I think you should read the unabomber manifesto.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

          This is what they write after they smoke a joint or two or three. In other words, they write in Greenspanese or spiritual (meta-physical) babble. And that is why my generation, the baby-boom generation, has accomplished so little for the world.

          Here are some of the accomplishments of the WWII generation: 1.) Victory in WWII and the defeat of fascism; 2.) atomic power for peaceful use, and hydro-electric dams; 3.) automobiles and freeways; 4.) radio and television and telephones; 5.) the airplane and air travel; 6.) man landing on the moon; 7.) shopping malls and skyscrapers; 8.) socialized-medicine in most countries.

          Here are some of the accomplishments of the baby-boom generation: 1.) computers, micro-computers, micro-chips, and the internet; 2.) a space probe landing on Mars; 3.) more energy efficient lights.
          Last edited by Starving Steve; July 27, 2010, 12:23 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

            Originally posted by alcyone
            Kurt Godel and what he called "Metasystems Theory"
            That's not what Gödel did. Gödel proved a couple of theorems in the foundations of mathematics. He showed the consistency of the continuum hypothesis and the axiom of choice with Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, and in his more famous result, the incompleteness of any axiomatic set theory sufficiently powerful to model arithmetic.

            I am not familiar with the metasystems theory of which you speak (though I see it is not getting a whole lot of respect from my colleagues above <grin>). It sounds to me like an explanation of the Hegelian dialectic, from some English speaking students who were not doing well in their German classes.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

              Niall put it exactly right. Foreign default or domestic (default by) inflation. Exactly. No choices, it is inevitable just as the sun must rise so this will happen. It is 100% certain.

              That's exactly why I NEVER agreed with iTulip's asset allocation, or at least EJs of so much in the way of bonds. It's gold gold gold all the way. Nothing else will hold a candle to it and nothing else has as an asset class (you can of course do much better if you invest in the RIGHT businesses.)

              This is extremely cogent and exactly spot on.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                AFAICT, Godel himself is not connected with metasystems theory. Your post above is the top hit in the search I link to.

                http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8

                If you read Godel, you've grossly misunderstood him, or read some popularization that murders his work.

                (my spin, probably wrong) Trying to apply Godel to economics is a waste of time, even if you understood him. The real world is an ad-hoc system, NOT a system created via (axioms - and - rigorous - derivations, so Godel's result is inapplicable to almost anything real.

                The only way you could apply Godel-isms is via analogy, and they would be extremely bad ones. The temptation (which almost everyone I've ever read on Godel succumbs to) would be to apply his results, not his method.

                Originally posted by alcyone View Post
                I like Nail Ferguson and appreciate his argument but what is it but an opposing view of a Mental polarity. To understand what is behind the chaos of Capitalism in the world today we should study the work of the mathematical Kurt Godel and what he called "Metasystems Theory". Godel asserted that when the limits of complexity are reached in any system, one must, through the use of insight, go beyond the limitations of that closed axiomatic system and intuit a system of higher complexity or "Meta-system" which contains the solutions and proofs of the lower ones. Insoluble problems which occur at one level, as a result of the fixed system of propositions at that level, can be easily solved by moving to a new more comprehensive system in which the fixed propositions are more inclusive. The higher or meta-systems are characterized by different laws and principles which contain the solution to problems existing at the lower levels. The consensus of those who have moved beyond the closed mental dogma of our present economic system is that Capitalism is finished. Its opposite, Communism or Socialism, will not replace it. There will be something NEW, a more comprehensive system like Godel describes and it will be more in line with the eternal truths that a genuine spirituality and an enlightened consciousness embrace. This is an evolutionary certainty.
                I finished reading the rest of the post after replying to the Godel comments.

                confused, rambling gobbledygook.
                Last edited by Spartacus; July 27, 2010, 05:58 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                  when the limits of complexity are reached in any system, one must, through the use of insight, go beyond the limitations of that closed axiomatic system and intuit a system of higher complexity or "Meta-system" which contains the solutions and proofs of the lower ones. Insoluble problems which occur at one level, as a result of the fixed system of propositions at that level, can be easily solved by moving to a new more comprehensive system in which the fixed propositions are more inclusive. The higher or meta-systems are characterized by different laws and principles which contain the solution to problems existing at the lower levels.
                  +1

                  Your description above, is implicit in the work of Abel, Reimann and Gauss imo. A window into this understanding can be found in Gauss's paper Disquisitiones Arithmeticae, which looks at number theory. Particularly Prime numbers from the veiw point of Modulus. Gauss shows why and how prime numbers of the type 4n+1 (e.g. 5 or 17) have factors e.g. (2-i)(2+i)=5 and therefore are, lets say, less prime then 4n+3 numbers ( e.g. 7 or 11). This insight into the nature of number can only truly be grasped when the prime numbers on the linear number line are looked at from the stand point of a "system of higher complexity", i.e. the complex domain, thus a deeper understanding comes from looking down from a more "comprehensive system", "going beyond the limitations of the existing system to gain a greater understanding", philosophically imo, this is one reason why human beings whom are capable of creative leaps to form new systems to gain greater understanding, are not turing machines as some on this forum have held.

                  http://www.amazon.com/Disquisitiones.../dp/0387962549

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disquis...s_Arithmeticae
                  Last edited by Diarmuid; July 27, 2010, 06:41 PM. Reason: grammar
                  "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                    For a student of Plato, it might be worthwhile to take a deeper look at Math Serge

                    Let No One Ignorant of Geometry. Enter Here.

                    We should keep in mind that, for Plato, geometry, as well as all other mathematical sciences, is not an end in itself, but only a prerequisite meant to test and develop the power of abstraction in the student, that is, his ability to go beyond the level of sensible experience which keeps us within the "visible" realm, that of the material world, all the way to the pure intelligible

                    http://plato-dialogues.org/faq/faq009.htm
                    Last edited by Diarmuid; July 27, 2010, 07:25 PM.
                    "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                      The "science" of economics, as many of the frameworks we use to understand, comprehend and formulate decisions and action in the "real world", are based on systems of formal deductive logic and so Godel work is applicable to it and many other areas besides, I believe.

                      In this one-off documentary, David Malone looks at four brilliant mathematicians - Georg Cantor, Ludwig Boltzmann, Kurt Gödel and Alan Turing - whose genius has profoundly affected us, but which tragically drove them insane and eventually led to them all committing suicide. The film begins with Georg Cantor, the great mathematician whose work proved to be the foundation for much of the 20th-century mathematics. He believed he was God's messenger and was eventually driven insane trying to prove his theories of infinity.
                      Part 1


                      Part2
                      Last edited by Diarmuid; July 27, 2010, 08:26 PM. Reason: clarity
                      "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                        The documentary I posted essentially tallies with much of your comments as it presents the implications of Godels work. From my own understanding I also very much agree with some of your premises.
                        "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                          Originally posted by grapejelly View Post
                          Niall put it exactly right. Foreign default or domestic (default by) inflation. Exactly. No choices, it is inevitable just as the sun must rise so this will happen. It is 100% certain.

                          That's exactly why I NEVER agreed with iTulip's asset allocation, or at least EJs of so much in the way of bonds. It's gold gold gold all the way. Nothing else will hold a candle to it and nothing else has as an asset class (you can of course do much better if you invest in the RIGHT businesses.)

                          This is extremely cogent and exactly spot on.
                          We've forecast inflation as the outcome of U.S. asset bubbles since 1998.

                          But it's a long, slow process.

                          Bonds since 2000 have done well paying 6% a year, no? Certainly better than stocks.

                          We'd have taken a greater than 30% position in gold except that we worried that the higher the gold price got, the more the government will be tempted to tax it. Lo and behold.

                          Who could have known?
                          Ed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                            Originally posted by FRED View Post

                            We'd have taken a greater than 30% position in gold except that we worried that the higher the gold price got, the more the government will be tempted to tax it. Lo and behold.

                            Who could have known?
                            Perhaps I misunderstood your point re: above. However, my understanding is that the 1099 requirement is a reporting provision. Personally, I think that it was something that was dreamed up due to the coming VAT. Perhaps the amount of paperwork this will create be addressed if enough people complain about it (as they should bc it's bs!). That said, my understanding is that this new reporting requirement imposes no new tax (on silver and gold among other things). If you have a gain on your sales, you are already required to report such gain.

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                            • #15
                              Re: N. Ferguson via FT: Today’s Keynesians have learnt nothing

                              Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
                              The "science" of ecomomics, as many of othe frameworks we use to understand, comprehend and formulate decisions and action, are based on systems of formal deductive logic and so Godel work is applicable to it and many other areas besides, I believe.
                              I'm not familiar with Gobel's work, so that may very well be the case. And I agree that math may be [very] useful in understanding human constructs, including their ebb and flow or their birth and death. However, it may also do more damage than good (as is evidenced by the much lower level math applied in the risk management that lead to the current mess, not a perfect example but you get it). Perhaps it's in the value that we ascribe to math without adjusting for our human limitations, nature, and/or agendas.

                              My experience is that those that are heavily immersed in the math / model have a bias towards missing the forest for the trees.

                              For example, in the so called gobbledygook quoted above, the terms Capitalism, Communism, and Socialism are thrown around like self-evident concepts. But there is no consensus on a definition, nor how to apply it analytically - especially for Capitalism. Not only that, but the values/definitions of these variables are subject to revolution within the form; such that things haven't really changed even though we define things differently.

                              Perhaps, all one needed to say is:

                              [I think that] The current economic system will change due to [what's going on now], and the system will change to [a system that we've never tried before].

                              For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying that we shouldn't use math to increase our understanding of the universe and its systems, including the ones that we construct, I'm simply trying to highlight the limitations when it's argued that it is the panacea. After all, it's one of our most important tools!

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