Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

[ASH]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

The frightening problem here is the old saying "idle hands do the devil's work". If people do not have jobs, then they're likely to get into all sorts of mischief. I personally believe this is why we have such a bad drug problem in Mexico these days, because the demand for their product has been increasing as we get more and more idle time on our hands.

Perhaps what we need are vast complexes of "safe injection sites" so people can go there and hook themselves up. Some people say drugs are bad, but maybe it's a way of dealing with a large portion of society that doesn't want to (or can not) find satisfaction in other ways.

A modest proposal.

Alternatively, some enterprising fellow could transform the idle and frustrated into a radical political movement -- that would give them something to do. I see political radicalization as a growth industry. Perhaps someone could organize them to march and demonstrate and give them distinctive uniforms to build a sense of identity. The party could double as a social safety net, once government benefits run out. The party could even offer free day care (and complementary political education) for the children of those who had to accept jobs further down the employment ladder. That way, these idle hands could contribute constructively to the political dialog of the country!

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

heh, well, believe it or not I was actually being semi-serious I agree though that radicalization is a growth industry. I'm not sure it's a constructive one.

[ASH]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

heh, well, believe it or not I was actually being semi-serious I agree though that radicalization is a growth industry. I'm not sure it's a constructive one.

In all seriousness, then, I think the main problem with occupying idle hands with drugs is that many drugs damage the user and induce dependence. If the plan is to occupy the unemployed, then why not something less destructive? For one thing, fewer charges of racism would be leveled -- unemployment is higher in certain disadvantaged minority communities, and the idea that drug use is promoted/tolerated by the government as a tool to destroy minority communities has some currency in those communities.

Since these folks are going to be on the dole, anyway, could we maybe pay to send them to play at a water park or work in a community garden, as a diversion, rather than hook them up to drugs?

For that matter, make-work would probably be better for self-esteem than no work. A new Civilian Conservation Corps wouldn't necessarily have to be about stimulating any sort of recovery -- it could just be a more positive alternative to paying benefits to idle people. People with a sense of purpose are probably happier, no?

And, although a perpetual situation of too few jobs is assumed in this sub-thread (the automation issue), it would probably be psychologically good to offer the unemployed some plausible path to employment. It could be highly competitive, and one wouldn't entertain the notion that full employment could be achieved, but folks have to have hope. So, I guess I'm arguing for some job-training opportunity, even if there will never be enough jobs for all the applicants.

[radon]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

Perhaps what we need are vast complexes of "safe injection sites" so people can go there and hook themselves up.

Sounds like World of Warcraft. Perhaps it is time to invest in blizzard?

[ASH]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

Sounds like World of Warcraft. Perhaps it is time to invest in blizzard?

Quite. More generally, if there is no opportunity to accomplish something worthwhile in the real world, video games as "progress/productivity/achievement" simulators could be very psychologically helpful. Heck, when things are going poorly at work, I often turn to games for a hit of faux achievement. Sure, the latest APD fab lot may have failed spectacularly, and yeah, I may have no clue how to fix the design, but I'm absolutely rocking the head shots on Modern Warfare 2!

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

Sounds like World of Warcraft. Perhaps it is time to invest in blizzard?

Well played.

I'm thinking maybe Zynga / Farmville, too?

[Zen$]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

[QUOTE=lakedaemonian;167091]

We've talked the US housing market crash to death(and it's continuing death spasms), but what of the US education market?




Yes we are going to experience "peak" higher education. The endangered species are the private small colleges with no endowments. They are the canary in the coal mine. State institutions will always be because we need a place to warehouse young adults relatively cheaply--a bread and circus if you will--until they get well into their twenties. State universities are more and more being asked to deliver "social welfare" programs to the community and their own populations.

[shiny!]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

For a long time now we've had government pushing the fallacy that "Every child deserves a college education" and it just isn't true. In order to achieve this goal, public schools have eliminated vocational programs that taught automotive repair, plumbing, electrical repair, office work, etc., and used the funding for more academic college prep classes. We now have a high dropout rate, mostly amongst students who are frustrated by the classroom learning environment. We are graduating high school students who are functionally illiterate and have not been taught how to think for themselves. We've created a society of helpless individuals.

Nobody wants to admit that not every child is cut out for college. A lot of kids with learning and behavioral problems who do poorly in the classroom are kinesthetic learners. They would be very successful in vocational classes. Kids who are bored in math class eagerly learn math when they're taught to calculate how much lumber they will need to build a doghouse. My husband is a Special Ed teacher who has taught Vocational classes to Special Ed middle-schoolers. These kids are not dumb, they just have different learning styles.

We need mechanics, plumbers and the like, and should not stigmatize people who do those jobs. We should return to the "merit" education system espoused by Thomas Jefferson: All children get public education through middle school. The highest performers get to go to public High School. In High School, children with college aptitude get the College track. The top percentage would get their college paid for.

Children with vocational aptitude would get the Vocational track. Apprenticeship programs could be set up with local businesses to further their training. This might involve changing the child labor laws. There's nothing to stop vocationally educated students from going to college later if that's what they want to do.

If we did this, we would see young people graduating from High School with marketable skills ready to start work, or ready to excel in college.

This post should not be construed as saying that people who are kinesthetic learners, or people who do vocational trades for a living are not smart enough for college. I'm just saying different strokes for different folks, and the education system should encourage Vocational as well as College prep.

[ASH]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

For a long time now we've had government pushing the fallacy that "Every child deserves a college education" and it just isn't true. In order to achieve this goal, public schools have eliminated vocational programs that taught automotive repair, plumbing, electrical repair, office work, etc., and used the funding for more academic college prep classes. We now have a high dropout rate, mostly amongst students who are frustrated by the classroom learning environment. We are graduating high school students who are functionally illiterate and have not been taught how to think for themselves. We've created a society of helpless individuals.

Nobody wants to admit that not every child is cut out for college. A lot of kids with learning and behavioral problems who do poorly in the classroom are kinesthetic learners. They would be very successful in vocational classes. Kids who are bored in math class eagerly learn math when they're taught to calculate how much lumber they will need to build a doghouse. My husband is a Special Ed teacher who has taught Vocational classes to Special Ed middle-schoolers. These kids are not dumb, they just have different learning styles.

We need mechanics, plumbers and the like, and should not stigmatize people who do those jobs. We should return to the "merit" education system espoused by Thomas Jefferson: All children get public education through middle school. The highest performers get to go to public High School. In High School, children with college aptitude get the College track. The top percentage would get their college paid for.

Children with vocational aptitude would get the Vocational track. Apprenticeship programs could be set up with local businesses to further their training. This might involve changing the child labor laws. There's nothing to stop vocationally educated students from going to college later if that's what they want to do.

If we did this, we would see young people graduating from High School with marketable skills ready to start work, or ready to excel in college.

This post should not be construed as saying that people who are kinesthetic learners, or people who do vocational trades for a living are not smart enough for college. I'm just saying different strokes for different folks, and the education system should encourage Vocational as well as College prep.

Excellent post. Part of the problem is muddled thinking about what constitutes "equality".

As Americans, we all enjoy political equality -- one citizen; one vote.

Equality of opportunity is a fairly uncontroversial goal -- we'd like everyone who might succeed to have a chance to do so.

But certain types of highly skilled labor are better remunerated than other professions, so clearly there is inequality of outcome.

Unfortunately -- but naturally -- we attach a good deal of social status to the size of one's paycheck. So how can we have an "equal" society without offering everyone an equal chance to earn that big paycheck? That's partly why we try to give everyone a college education.

Our education policy is based upon the proposition that in addition to political equality, Americans also have equality of potential. Certainly, this is something we'd like to be true. So our education policy is designed around the proposition that everyone could perform high-value labor, if offered appropriate training. Heaven help the public education official who tells a parent that little Johny has less of a shot at a big paycheck than little Susie.

What you said about not stigmatizing blue color trades is quite right. But I think differences in compensation have a lot to do with status, and the scarcity of certain types of labor has a lot to do with pay (excepting the high-pay tail of the curve). How do you de-stigmatize making less money, in America? Everyone talks about how less of a focus on materialism would do us good, but is not materialism one of our defining traits?

[jk]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

Excellent post. Part of the problem is muddled thinking about what constitutes "equality".

As Americans, we all enjoy political equality -- one citizen; one vote.

Equality of opportunity is a fairly uncontroversial goal -- we'd like everyone who might succeed to have a chance to do so.

But certain types of highly skilled labor are better remunerated than other professions, so clearly there is inequality of outcome.

Unfortunately -- but naturally -- we attach a good deal of social status to the size of one's paycheck. So how can we have an "equal" society without offering everyone an equal chance to earn that big paycheck? That's partly why we try to give everyone a college education.

Our education policy is based upon the proposition that in addition to political equality, Americans also have equality of potential. Certainly, this is something we'd like to be true. So our education policy is designed around the proposition that everyone could perform high-value labor, if offered appropriate training. Heaven help the public education official who tells a parent that little Johny has less of a shot at a big paycheck than little Susie.

What you said about not stigmatizing blue color trades is quite right. But I think differences in compensation have a lot to do with status, and the scarcity of certain types of labor has a lot to do with pay (excepting the high-pay tail of the curve). How do you de-stigmatize making less money, in America? Everyone talks about how less of a focus on materialism would do us good, but is not materialism one of our defining traits?

there are many people with college degrees earning less than many others without. there are lots of plumbers, electricians, contractors of various kinds, doing quite well, thank you very much.

the data showing that a college degree means a higher lifetime income compares college graduates to all others. i'd be curious to see the comparison narrowed to non-graduates with a skill or trade.

this is to say that the distribution curves have different means, but significantly overlap. for the adept non-studious youth, the blue collar option may well lead to a higher income.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

I'm just going to inject a couple of observations into this discussion -

One - I graduated with an engineering degree about 25 years ago. I'd say that of 20 of my friends that received an engineering degree, only 2 are still going engineering. The rest followed the money trail out into finance and law.

So long as those career choices have better monetary opportunities (real or perceived), we will continue to generate more financial engineers before nanotech engineers....and the last few years of financial sector "fixes" haven't done anything to change that.

Our culture is definitely raising more and more students looking for the quick answer, the immediate reward, the big payback. Engineering is none of those things.

Agree that education system is a large contributor to all this. More emphasis on those who can lead groups, present their opinions, lead teams, than the development of original ideas, and those who have good, original ideas in the first place.

[ASH]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

there are many people with college degrees earning less than many others without. there are lots of plumbers, electricians, contractors of various kinds, doing quite well, thank you very much.

the data showing that a college degree means a higher lifetime income compares college graduates to all others. i'd be curious to see the comparison narrowed to non-graduates with a skill or trade.

this is to say that the distribution curves have different means, but significantly overlap. for the adept non-studious youth, the blue collar option may well lead to a higher income.

You are right, of course. The public policy, and the message transmitted to students, tends to focus on the difference in mean.

Also, it seems that the way we think about the economic value of college dates from a time when college education was less common. By making it commonplace, we reduced its value. Education, in and of itself, doesn't make labor valuable -- talent, application, and scarcity tend to determine the value of labor.

Maybe we need to do more to get the word out that (a) a college education isn't a guarantee of financial success, and (b) there are vocations like underwater welding which pay handsomely. Perhaps that will help even up perceptions of blue versus white collar work, and thereby make education policy more flexible. I figure parents mainly want their children to be successful; success doesn't always wear a tie.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

Personally, I've been incredibly concerned about education(and the often very negative return on it) for a LONG time now.

Looking back on my generic undergrad and time spent in an ivy business school program and specifically the massive tuition inflation that has occurred since my time at both I cannot fathom how people are NOT seeing all of this!

With two young children, and discussion my wife and I have with other parents about the state of the world I jokingly respond to parents who ask what we hope for our children someday.

My typical response is I hope one becomes a plumber and the other gains a hard science terminal degree in genetic engineering, because I fear that traditional white collar careers nearly everyone wishes for their children will probably be turned upside down in the coming decade.

It's a bit of a throwaway comment.....as plumbers.....while we will need them forever and are probably undersupplied with them at the moment.....will probably see an oversupply at some stage moving forwardvia fly by night tradeschools by folks who have abandoned the white collar pursuit and McMansion dreams for food on the table.

But I completely agree that RELEVANT vocational/technical training has been largely abandoned or at least neglected in the US......I reckon we will probably swing the other way in a poorly conceived "shoot from the hip" effort...which means the folks currently doing well or OK at the bottom will probably be drowned in competition.

Hopefully we see a genuine demand from private business for blue collar employees who can work with carbon fibre, alt energy, biotech, etc. matched by dynamic vocational/technical training sector.

The movie Idiocracy is supposed to be a comedic satire...not a documentary of our near future.

[shiny!]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

How do you de-stigmatize making less money, in America? Everyone talks about how less of a focus on materialism would do us good, but is not materialism one of our defining traits?

This excessive materialism and entitlement mentality is a fairly recent development, just like the excessive profit-taking of the oligarchy, and the wealth concentration in the highest 1%-2% of the population. It's all a spiritual illness, IMO.

There was a time not too long ago when honest work was valued by society, and people took pride in their work. People really didn't focus excessively on materialism. Then a TV show came along called "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous", and suddenly "enough" was no longer enough. People who had been content in their modest homes, who were grateful for having good health and children who did well in school, who were proud of their jobs... suddenly these people felt dissatisfied and envious.

It was no longer good enough to live within one's means; it became necessary to make a lot of money to buy a big Big BIG house, new cars, boats, bling... If you couldn't earn the money to get it, then use credit.

My son has seen it with the young interns and residents he's overseen as Chief Resident in his hospital. They aren't as willing to study and work long hours as the older doctors were, they whine a lot and don't take responsibility for their mistakes. They feel entitled to respect, but aren't willing to work for it. They don't understand that life is hard.

If any good comes out of these times, it will be society once again valuing hard work and a job well done, and being grateful for small blessings.

[shiny!]

Re: Americans not qualified for available manufacturing jobs

The movie Idiocracy is supposed to be a comedic satire...not a documentary of our near future.

Ok, that's the second mention of Idiocracy I've heard in the last hour. My son just mentioned it when we were taling a little while ago, when he was ranting about the lazy interns. Guess I need to see it.