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The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

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  • The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

    To revalue will be to tighten money supply, raising interest rates, and the bubble will implode? Surely the Chinese government will not want to take the blame. ;)

    But time to find an external blame is running out, with real estate prices rising at the rate of 100% to 200% per annum (500% on the tropical island of Hainan), it will only be a matter of months before the bubble collapses onto itself.


    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...nt_9684907.htm

    Collapse predicted as housing prices continue to soar
    (Xinhua)
    Updated: 2010-04-03 17:57

    BEIJING - Predictions have flooded the Internet in China this week about the country's runaway property market collapsing in 2011.

    Much of the chatter voiced little concern about the possible severe consequences, instead expressed hope for the crash to come.

    Coming at a time when complaints about mounting housing prices are on the rise, the online debate has drawn enormous attention from ordinary residents, industry insiders, experts and received substantive media coverage.

    Speculation started after a comparison was made between China's property market and that of Japan. In 1991, Japan's property bubble burst. Following the Japanese yen's appreciation in 1985, large amounts of capital flowed into the country's real estate, inflating prices artificially which eventually led to a burst.

    Two decades later, some say the same is happening in China, both in sequence and pace: the yuan appreciated in 2005, capital flowed to property markets in 2006, resulting in soaring housing prices in 2007, and now the burst is imminent.

    Hope for a crash?

    Feng Zhichao, a thirty-something man, has been living in Beijing for 12 years, since starting college. He is working for a foreign company with a salary of 5,000 yuan ($732.4) per month and pays 750 yuan per month for rent for a room less than 10 square meters.

    "House prices in Beijing are crazy! I wish the property market would collapse this year! Then I could buy an apartment of my own in the city and be in the position to think about marriage," he said. "If I were wealthy enough, I would not care about home prices," he added.

    Previously owned homes in Beijing stood at 14,000 yuan per square meter in the first quarter of this year, much higher than about 9,300 yuan in the same period of last year, according to the local statistics bureau.

    Dong Wei, a 27 year-old Beijinger and an employee with a foreign IT company, said: "I don't believe the property market will crash, as the government will not let that happen. It would be disastrous."

    Housing prices will definitely continue to rise, he added.

    With a monthly salary of about 8,000 yuan, Dong is seeking a second home of about 80 square meters in the Yayuncun area, around the North Fourth Ring Road in Beijing. Prices of second hand homes in the area averaged 25,000 to 30,000 yuan per square meter.

    He said housing prices in his target communities were around 20,000 yuan per square meter before the Spring Festival in February, and increased by 7,000 yuan per square meter during the recent two months. "Despite and because of the fast price growth, I will buy soon if I can find a proper one," he said.


    For people who are struggling to buy an apartment in cities, a big market correction will make their dream come true. However, for those who have bought apartments at high prices in recent years and for those who invest for profit, a crash would destroy their dream.

    Wang Xu works in Shanghai, the country's business hub, which also has recently seen skyrocketing housing prices. She owns two apartments, so the last thing she wants is a property market burst.
    The 28 year-old woman spent about 800,000 yuan on a second home of 60 square meters in Shanghai last March, after she and her husband bought their 30-square-meter first home in 2005 with 290,000 yuan. The first now is more than 600,000 yuan and the second home is now worth more than 1.2 million yuan now.
    "If the property market crashes, I will definitely crash at the same time. The money I have invested in the houses would disappear."
    "The anticipation of a market collapse shows that people are getting more discontent and impatient as property prices go through the roof and government measures failed to control the prices rise," said Qin Rui, a senior analyst with the Beijing-based 5i5j Real Estate Service.
    February home prices in 70 major cities in China climbed 10.7 percent from a year earlier, the fastest pace in almost two years, the National Bureau of Statistics reported. The rapid growth has ignited fears of an asset price bubble and prompted complaints.
    Since the end of last year, the government has put in place a series of measures to curb speculative purchasing in an attempt to stabilize prices, including a harsher property sales tax, increased supply of affordable houses, restraining land purchases, and controlling bank credit.
    Qin said the influential policies and seasonal factors in the first two months helped stabilize sales and prices for a while at the beginning of this year. However, people had still expected more effective measures to be unveiled from the annual session of the National People's Congress, China's parliament, in March, he said.
    Since the parliamentary session, however, sales and prices have resumed the fast rate of growth in major cities.
    In Beijing, previously owned home prices stood at 14,650 yuan per square meter at the end of March, 8.8 percent higher than that at the end of the previous month. Second hand home sales were expected to hit 27,000 in March in Beijing, the second largest only after December last year, according to the Centaline Property Agency. March 30 saw sales of 2,273 second hand homes, the record daily high in history.
    Slim chance of Japan-style crash
    Experts say that China is unlikely to repeat Japan's asset bubble crash since China currently is at a different development stage than Japan was in the 1980s.
    The biggest difference was that China was still at a low stage of development and had a large potential for urbanization and property development, said Hao Daming, economist with the China Galaxy Securities.
    The urbanization rate in Japan stood at 75 percent in the 1980s, while China would see its rate around 50 percent in 2015, he said.
    He said the massive inflow of rural residents into cities would push up real demand for homes, different from Japan's market in 1980s which was fueled more by speculation after the yen's appreciation.
    The Bank of Japan said in a report this week that China's current asset price gains were mainly driven by increasing real demand, with more of its population moving to urban areas. This was different from Japan's asset price bubble in the late 1980s, which was driven by speculation, the report said.
    Cheng Enfu, a senior scholar at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, a government think tank, said another difference was that policies made by the Chinese government tended to be more timely and forceful than Japan's policies because policy-making in Japan was more affected by different interest groups.
    He believed that the Chinese government would be able to squeeze out bubbles in the real estate market and achieve a soft landing by adopting a raft of measures.
    Premier Wen Jiabao said last month that the government would resolutely curb the abrupt rise in property prices in some cities and satisfy people's basic need for housing.
    However, experts held that the online predictions should be taken as a warning about the nation's bubbly property market.
    "The bubble is big now," Cheng Enfu said, adding the government must be highly alert on potential risk as it would hurt the country's economy and result in social instability if left uncontrolled.
    Last edited by touchring; April 04, 2010, 01:24 PM.

  • #2
    Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

    If the Chinese property markets crash, who does it really hurt?

    Maybe some select banks --> not the revolutionary types


    People who bought into the madness --> not the revolutionary type.( Likely they are professionals who qualified for a loan. They will still continue to work. )

    Property investors/gamblers? --> not the revolutionary type. They will take their substantial losses and crawl back from where they came.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

      Originally posted by aaron View Post
      If the Chinese property markets crash, who does it really hurt?

      Maybe some select banks --> not the revolutionary types


      People who bought into the madness --> not the revolutionary type.( Likely they are professionals who qualified for a loan. They will still continue to work. )

      Property investors/gamblers? --> not the revolutionary type. They will take their substantial losses and crawl back from where they came.
      And what exactly will the Chinese do with all that steel mill capacity they've been installing? Build more high speed rail?

      Show me any jurisdiction anywhere in the world, any time in the last 50 years, that has had a major property inflation bubble that inevitably collapsed...and did not take a major slice out of the economy when that happened. Just one example please.

      China is NOT different.

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      • #4
        Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

        Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
        And what exactly will the Chinese do with all that steel mill capacity they've been installing? Build more high speed rail?

        China will zig zag the country with a hundred thousand miles of high speed rail if they need to, so it won't be necessary to fly unless you are travelling from one end to the other end. But high speed rail has little to do with the bubble although little towns along the path of the rails will get a boost.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

          Originally posted by touchring View Post
          China will zig zag the country with a hundred thousand miles of high speed rail if they need to, so it won't be necessary to fly unless you are travelling from one end to the other end. But high speed rail has little to do with the bubble although little towns along the path of the rails will get a boost.
          I think you missed my point touchring. China's unbelievably gross overinvestment in steel making capacity is as symptomatic of the "China bubble" as its ridiculous property markets - the two are inextricably linked...as is much of the rest of its economy. The previous post suggested the property bubble could burst and the effects would be limited [at least that is how I read that post], and my contention is that is most decidedly not the case.

          I simply used "high speed rail" as one obvious outlet that China is now using to try to soak up some of that excessive steel mill capacity [the China bulls would argue the opposite - that the steel capacity is needed to build the railways, and everything is following a carefully arranged plan orchestrated from Beijing]. Sure, I fully expect that a bust starting in the property market will propel the Chinese authorities to ramp up consumption in other ways, including more railways, because the alternative is increasing unused manufacturing capacity and unemployment. Something you and I both agree is unacceptable to the authorities there.

          [And just as an aside, here's another anecdote about the power of China in a world of global trade. I just finished wiring the bunker and am making some of the lighting circuits live. I have a bag full of white plastic keyless lamp holders [cheap and cheerful for construction phase] from my last project nearly 20 years ago. They were made in Canada and some of them still have the price tag. I needed a few more and discovered that the same "Canadian" brand is now made in China and, two decades later, costs 10 cents less per lampholder than they used to. That's the power and distortion of China's malinvestment on world trade.]
          Last edited by GRG55; April 05, 2010, 08:29 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

            Originally posted by touchring View Post
            To revalue will be to tighten money supply, raising interest rates, and the bubble will implode? Surely the Chinese government will not want to take the blame. ;)

            But time to find an external blame is running out, with real estate prices rising at the rate of 100% to 200% per annum (500% on the tropical island of Hainan), it will only be a matter of months before the bubble collapses onto itself.


            http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...nt_9684907.htm
            This is the classic bubble conundrum that so many Central Banks and governments found themselves in recently. Just as the US Federal Reserve refused to act to constrain the credit in the late 1920's, for fear that it would be blamed for ending the boom, so it is today. No politician or Central Banker [is that redundant?] will choose the certain and immediate results and criticism of popping a bubble over the "less certain" and "sometime in the future" results of letting it run.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

              This will be the first "bubble" in a centrally planned economy in the 21st century. What the consequences will be are impossible to predict. We simply don't have the tools to properly analyze the economics.

              In the west, we had all the tools but they were not used, used improperly, or used too late. The bottom line is we here still don't know what the full extent of the fallout will be.

              My sense is that in China, action and reaction will be different to conditions that have a different meaning and priority to decision makers. I want to believe that with a vast array of state controlled weapons to deploy the Chinese will have an advantage we don't, both in time and policy. However, as humans the Chinese have their own set of dogmas and myths, and humans can be so stupid at times as well.

              Impossible to call in my opinion.
              ScreamBucket.com

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              • #8
                Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                Originally posted by Aetius Romulous View Post
                This will be the first "bubble" in a centrally planned economy in the 21st century. What the consequences will be are impossible to predict. We simply don't have the tools to properly analyze the economics.

                In the west, we had all the tools but they were not used, used improperly, or used too late. The bottom line is we here still don't know what the full extent of the fallout will be.

                My sense is that in China, action and reaction will be different to conditions that have a different meaning and priority to decision makers. I want to believe that with a vast array of state controlled weapons to deploy the Chinese will have an advantage we don't, both in time and policy. However, as humans the Chinese have their own set of dogmas and myths, and humans can be so stupid at times as well.

                Impossible to call in my opinion.
                It's not possible to perfectly predict the fallout effects of a major financial bubble anywhere, centrally planned economy or not.

                But I suspect that when China's turn finally comes the consequences and results will look hauntingly familiar in very many respects. And the allegedly omniscient "central planners" in Beijing will prove just as hapless as our allegedly omniscient "Maestro" Central Bankers proved to be...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                  My prediction:

                  Economic collapse in China will result in the end of the current regime. Expect the Communist authoritarian government being replaced by the people with guns (i.e. the army) thereby turning the country into a military dictatorship. Popular dissent/protests will be crushed even more forcefully with the jack boot. Expect lots of show trials where the "old" leadership are paraded out and put on trial for corruption whether deserved or not (though most likely deserved). This will be used to show the populace that "things are being taken care of." Expect an extremely more aggressive China as a result. They will have lots and lots of under-utilized factory space (built courtesy of the American consumer and corporate outsourcing fever) with which to rearm and go on a resource grab binge. Also, they will likely want to kick America out of their sandbox in the worst way possible. Say goodbye to American influence in Central Asia, Pakistan, and any other place that does not want to be on the receiving end of China's military.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                    Originally posted by Aetius Romulous View Post
                    This will be the first "bubble" in a centrally planned economy in the 21st century.
                    That's rather like saying that the first rock band to overindulge in opiates will likely suffer a quite different fate than the many jazz bands did who overindulged earlier.

                    When dealing with dominating governments, the style of government is more a matter of theatre for the masses than it is a controlling factor in the destiny of the nation.
                    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                    • #11
                      Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                      Originally posted by bcassill View Post
                      My prediction:

                      Economic collapse in China will result in the end of the current regime.

                      On the contrary, if the bubble burst, it will benefit most of China, 90% of the population, except for the 10%, made up of people employed in the real estate, finance and construction sectors, and officials that are heavily invested in real estate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                        From James Fallows -


                        As reported yesterday, the US-China "currency manipulation" showdown is past for the moment. The underlying issue -- China's insistence on keeping its RMB at an artificially low level, which ends up keeping the US dollar artificially high -- is far from resolved. But it won't be forced to a head this month.

                        That doesn't mean that our coverage is over! Herewith a note from Bill Bikales, an American economist who has lived for years in China, about how the situation looks from Chinese officialdom's point of view. I think his explanation is right, and it's different from what I've seen elsewhere spelled out quite this clearly. He writes (emphasis added):
                        Thank you for reminding your readers that while the RMB is undoubtedly manipulated and undervalued this is not a matter of great relevance to US growth and employment.

                        We both know that China is not particularly inclined to accept US advice, or pressure, on this or any other important policy matters. But I think that the "China never gives in to foreign pressure because of its century of humiliation" explanation that appears so often in the press is superficial and misleading.

                        As I see it, China is asking a question to which there is no easy answer; what right does the US have to lecture anyone on economic matters now, having played so large a part in causing the current global recession through loose monetary policy, poor risk management by some of our most prestigious companies and monumental regulatory failures? They are responding to the continued US belief in American exceptionalism, that we can do whatever we do, right or wrong, and ignore the criticisms and demands of other countries who often bear the consequences of our actions, while we continue to insist on our right to criticize and make demands on them. As Brad Delong and Stephen Cohen have pointed out, the US simply no longer has the economic clout to get away with this any longer, and who better than China to stand up to it?

                        As far as the RMB goes, surely it is far more important for the global economy that the US deals with its huge fiscal problems than that China lets the RMB appreciate? To which we reply - reasonably enough - that this is not the time to do so, yet, until we've recovered from the recession. (Although many doubt, also with good reason, that we will deal with the fiscal mess even then.) But in that case China's leaders expect us to accept their own assurances that they are also going to deal with the RMB issue once the global recession has passed and they are confident that they can do so without causing a major slowdown and loss of jobs in their country. As they were indeed doing before the financial crisis. Yes, we had no or negative growth over the last two years, and China had 9-10% percent growth in both, but our standard of living is still 15 times greater than theirs. Their imperative to keep growing rapidly in order to catch up with the advanced economies is as powerful to them as is our own need to shift from -2% growth to +3%.

                        It is this underlying asymmetry in the whole RMB brouhaha that China is responding to.
                        And all I have to add is: Happy Easter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                          Originally posted by touchring View Post
                          On the contrary, if the bubble burst, it will benefit most of China, 90% of the population, except for the 10%, made up of people employed in the real estate, finance and construction sectors, and officials that are heavily invested in real estate.
                          So you are claiming that it is different this time?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                            Originally posted by touchring View Post
                            On the contrary, if the bubble burst, it will benefit most of China, 90% of the population, except for the 10%, made up of people employed in the real estate, finance and construction sectors, and officials that are heavily invested in real estate.
                            That might be an overstatement, touchring. To say "it will benefit most of China" is to suggest that it would be a "net benefit" (all things considered) to most of China. I don't think we can necessarily conclude that.

                            The collapse of a bubble has many side affects and complications. Certainly there would be elements of benefit to those not already "long" real estate, but there would also be elements of harm to all, such as perhaps collateral harm to the rest of the economy.

                            The net affect would surely be a complex function of time, location and circumstance.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The real reason why China cannot take the initiative to revalue the yuan.

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              That might be an overstatement, touchring. To say "it will benefit most of China" is to suggest that it would be a "net benefit" (all things considered) to most of China.
                              The earlier it pops, the better is it. Popping is only a matter of time, don't you agree? Of course, it is not in the interest of the Chinese government to pop it.

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              Certainly there would be elements of benefit to those not already "long" real estate
                              And how many are long real estate with interests in something else other than their own homes? I think not more than 5% of the population. The bulk majority of Chinese lives in the countryside while the action is in the cities.

                              The Chinese government can't do anything about the bubble, as they can't be seen as the ones responsible for pricking it, and besides the priority remains in GDP chasing and factory building, to make China the economic superpower, the dream Mao wanted to achieve but failed to do so in his lifetime - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

                              Chinese officials are promoted based on the number of new factories their towns and cities 'bring in'. And where do the factories come from? From developed countries. The entire economic policy is geared to that end. The bubble is only an unintended side effect and not the means to an end.

                              So as you can see, the bubble benefits neither the majority of Chinese people, nor the majority of people in the rest of the world, save a minority in the commodities trade that power the bubble, a small number of speculators, and perhaps the greatest benefit of all - Mao's dream.

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              but there would also be elements of harm to all, such as perhaps collateral harm to the rest of the economy.
                              Of course, everyone in the world will be at the receiving end of the collateral harm you have described.
                              Last edited by touchring; April 06, 2010, 05:57 PM.

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