Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

[lakedaemonian]

Re: honesty in relations

Twenty years ago I had a sweet little Doberman that injured her leg. I asked my neighbor for help carrying her into the car, which he did, then he drove us 30 miles to my vet in Santa Fe. The vet told us she had torn her ACL. The surgery would be $400. (that same surgery now costs $5000) My neighbor had just gotten his tax refund, which he loaned me for the surgery. After the surgery, he helped me with her physical rehabilitation.

That began the courtship between my dear late husband and myself. He used to joke that he married me for my dog and I married him for his money, then the dog died and the money was gone but we were still together.

When he proposed to me, we talked for three days and nights before deciding to do it. We discussed our values, what had gone wrong in our previous marriages that we didn't want to repeat, what we each wanted from a spouse, what we were prepared to give to our spouse, what was negotiable, what was non-negotiable. Those were three very unromantic days, but by the time we were finished we felt that we could make it work.

We did make it work but it was hard work some times. The Sikh view of marriage is two bodies with one soul. "They are not married when two people merely sit together (in the marriage ceremony). Call them married only when two people have but one soul."

I can't speak for anyone else, but for a Sikh, the purpose of marriage isn't romantic fulfillment. It's to see and foster the Divine in each other. Help each other be the best they can be, serve and inspire one another, use the marriage union to serve the Creator.

A lot of relationships based on notions of romance fail because the people are each using the other to serve their own egos instead of sublimating their egos, serving each other in a spirit of selfless Love.

Last week was the second anniversary of my husband's death. I still love him more each day. Even now he is with me, still giving me love and encouragement as he always did.

Interesting take on life and marriage Shiny.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm a believer in romantic love, and am fortunate to share it with my wife.

But I would agree that the vast majority of the time it is more like a partnership of us against the world....supporting each other.

The start of our relationship followed within weeks with a move around the world. The only promise was no marriage and no kids. Now we're married with kids.

We have a dog to connect us as well.......he came just before the kids. And he just had an op to remove two toes(full day at the vet surgery only $600, I was expecting thousands).

Romance isn't what makes a marriage work(but it certainly makes for some wonderful milestones), I reckon what makes a marriage work is mutual support, sacrifice(my wife is looking after our family single handed while I deploy yet again), and serving each other like you posted.

I recall some of the posts you've written about your husband.

He sounds like a truly good man.

[shiny!]

Re: honesty in relations

I think the question of honesty is a major problem in trying to find a partner. I often wonder, if I were single again, how I would approach this dilemma. It is a gigantic moral hazard, since you seem to lose out by being honest. I even thought of starting an internet dating site where people could pay to have information verified, for example, age, profession, income, and lack of disease. (precisely the things that people tend to lie about).

It's part of a larger dilemma that, we want the dignity of being liked, but the security of being loved.
Another symptom: the adage that men play at love to get sex, and women play at sex to get love. (or is at money that both are really after?)

I agree with you, at least part of the problem arises from the structure of our relationships.

I think some sort of group structure is the answer, but how to create a cohesive group of non-relatives is difficult. I think we need to re-cover the highly cooperative group lifestyle of our distant ancestors. But formidable legal and cultural barriers exist.

Twenty years ago I had a sweet little Doberman that injured her leg. I asked my neighbor for help carrying her into the car, which he did, then he drove us 30 miles to my vet in Santa Fe. The vet told us she had torn her ACL. The surgery would be $400. (that same surgery now costs $5000) My neighbor had just gotten his tax refund, which he loaned me for the surgery. After the surgery, he helped me with her physical rehabilitation.

That began the courtship between my dear late husband and myself. He used to joke that he married me for my dog and I married him for his money, then the dog died and the money was gone but we were still together.

When he proposed to me, we talked for three days and nights before deciding to do it. We discussed our values, what had gone wrong in our previous marriages that we didn't want to repeat, what we each wanted from a spouse, what we were prepared to give to our spouse, what was negotiable, what was non-negotiable. Those were three very unromantic days, but by the time we were finished we felt that we could make it work.

We did make it work but it was hard work some times. The Sikh view of marriage is two bodies with one soul. "They are not married when two people merely sit together (in the marriage ceremony). Call them married only when two people have but one soul."

I can't speak for anyone else, but for a Sikh, the purpose of marriage isn't romantic fulfillment. It's to see and foster the Divine in each other. Help each other be the best they can be, serve and inspire one another, use the marriage union to serve the Creator.

A lot of relationships based on notions of romance fail because the people are each using the other to serve their own egos instead of sublimating their egos, serving each other in a spirit of selfless Love.

Last week was the second anniversary of my husband's death. I still love him more each day. Even now he is with me, still giving me love and encouragement as he always did.

[Polish_Silver]

honesty in relations

Your comment about the conflict with truth and desirability gave me pause to think of that. I think that is it. It goes a long way to explain the dysfunction in relationships out there. People have to juggle between what is desirable and the truth, which has created this 'Romance game' where it is more about creating an idealized image of yourself as opposed to presenting who you really are. And all because they are trying to have both companionship and sexual satisfaction from the same source. If men could be emotionally intimate with each other, then this wouldn't even be an issue. It would also lead to much healthier relationships between men and women because there would be far less pretense for maintaining facades.

I think the question of honesty is a major problem in trying to find a partner. I often wonder, if I were single again, how I would approach this dilemma. It is a gigantic moral hazard, since you seem to lose out by being honest. I even thought of starting an internet dating site where people could pay to have information verified, for example, age, profession, income, and lack of disease. (precisely the things that people tend to lie about).

It's part of a larger dilemma that, we want the dignity of being liked, but the security of being loved.
Another symptom: the adage that men play at love to get sex, and women play at sex to get love. (or is at money that both are really after?)

I agree with you, at least part of the problem arises from the structure of our relationships.

I think some sort of group structure is the answer, but how to create a cohesive group of non-relatives is difficult. I think we need to re-cover the highly cooperative group lifestyle of our distant ancestors. But formidable legal and cultural barriers exist.

[BadJuju]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

Your comment about the conflict with truth and desirability gave me pause to think of that. I think that is it. It goes a long way to explain the dysfunction in relationships out there. People have to juggle between what is desirable and the truth, which has created this 'Romance game' where it is more about creating an idealized image of yourself as opposed to presenting who you really are. And all because they are trying to have both companionship and sexual satisfaction from the same source. If men could be emotionally intimate with each other, then this wouldn't even be an issue. It would also lead to much healthier relationships between men and women because there would be far less pretense for maintaining facades.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

I had not thought of that, but it makes sense. What if there is some unconscious, but omnipresent taboo against two men being very close, then they seek out women for what they should get from other men.

I remember hearing that men in Saudi Arabia would walk down the streets holding hands. The observer, an American woman, was revolted by "all the homos".

[BadJuju]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

Good points, sir. Could our society's aversion to intimacy between males be a cause for these troubles? If a man cannot be intimate with a male companion, he has to seek out a female and then that becomes problematic because of the sexual component thrown into the mix.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

I agree with PS here. I do not know why people try to satisfy their need for companionship and sexual satisfaction with the same person. In many ways they can be quite incompatible and it leads to heartache. I am of the belief they should be separated. Have your friends and have your friends-with-benefits.

I thinks that is a good way of looking at it. Sex and love are different emotions and we need to get them from different people. Love requires constancy, common values, common experience. Sexual feeling requires novelty, attractiveness, etc. Showing the truth to someone may deepen love, but it detracts from sexual feeling, which hinges on desirability. Freud was totally wrong. We do not want sex with family members.

[BadJuju]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

I am betting less than 20% get married again.

Marriage is like a "bait and switch". You fall in love and sexual passions are strong. So, for the sake of public approval, you enter into a life time contract of cohabitation and sexual monogamy. But a few years into it, you find out the sexual passions aren't there any more. Many stay together because the companionship is valuable.

If young people were told about the truth about sexual feelings, the prestige of marriage would decrease greatly.

I agree with PS here. I do not know why people try to satisfy their need for companionship and sexual satisfaction with the same person. In many ways they can be quite incompatible and it leads to heartache. I am of the belief they should be separated. Have your friends and have your friends-with-benefits.

[Polish_Silver]

are SD prices rising?

I'll hazard a guess that prices in your area are "permanently high" but not rising faster than inflation. That is at least approximately true where I grew up, near San Francisco.

House prices did appreciate 1970-2000, but have been just bouncing since then.

Still, if you buy and sit on an $800k house for 20 years, when you sell, it may have kept up with inflation. Taxes will be low the last years thanks to prop 13. And if you move
to a less costly area, the "house savings" will be considerable. I think few will have better investment vehicles.

I think a lot of people in CA are "property poor".

[rlskaggs2003]

Re: San Diego is expensive

At this time, incomes do appear to support these prices because homes do not stay on the market for very long and prices are going up. There's an incredible amount of 'keeping up with the Joneses' here, the likes I have never seen. So, although incomes may support, expenses are equally high and I imagine there's not much left in the cookie jar at the end of the month for many. I've got anecdotal evidence attesting to that. Friends/acquaintences living large on large incomes but stressing about savings and retirement because they're in their upper 40's and they have little. Makes me wonder what these folks plan to do when they're old. Either win the lottery or sell their 'investment' to retire off of.

So, maybe it's not a bubble. Maybe there'll always be an influx of high income folks moving here with the ability and desire to pay ever increasing prices for basic, production homes. I just can't help but wonder how home prices here will continue to rise from million dollar levels if/when interest rates rise and cash strapped baby boomer/genx homeowners need to sell and scale down as they age. Who will be the future buyer? The millenial with $250k in student loans?

[Polish_Silver]

China, Itulip vs Gold mines

At this point in time I think their human capital, in the form of engineering and technical services, is their real value proposition to anyone wishing to do business with them.

These are some of the reasons I don't think its as big a threat to the USA as many make it out to be. Yet.

Very well stated. I am very impressed with my Chinese Rigol Oscilloscope.

EJ has repeatedly said that he hates gold and silver mines as an investment, saying they cannot be managed properly.

GRG55, I wonder what your opinion is on this. It seems to me that almost any business is "difficult to manage" as there are competitors with similar resources and knowledge to your own, trying to get your market share. A gold mine, at least, does not have to worry about "over production" since the price of gold has little to do with mine output.

[Polish_Silver]

San Diego is expensive

This statement hits close to home. I live in north San Diego County, zip code 92130. Here, a typical 4 bed, 3 bath stucko-box on a postage stamp lot with builder special carpet, plastic doors and gold trim runs $800,000 and up. .

SD property has been expensive for a long time, comparable to silicon valley perhaps.

Are you sure the incomes in the area will not support those prices?

[rlskaggs2003]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

And like all good bubbles it goes on much longer and inflates to a much greater extent than anyone could have imagined.

This statement hits close to home. I live in north San Diego County, zip code 92130. Here, a typical 4 bed, 3 bath stucko-box on a postage stamp lot with builder special carpet, plastic doors and gold trim runs $800,000 and up. I'm left in bewilderment as I pass by new housing developments where the sign out front advertises prices "From the low millions." Mind you, these are neighborhoods designed with perhaps 4 to 5 different floorplans. Most are architechturally puke-worthy. As head of a renting, two income, family of 5, earning a decent living, I cannot fathom how and why these properties sell at these prices. Without accounting for housing, California ain't exactly a cheap place to live. Everything here seems to be 10% to 20% higher in cost than compared to the rest of the U.S. Where does the disposable income to afford these properties come from?? Are these people throwing caution to the wind, living only for the moment, pouring everything they have into granite countertops, stainless steel appliances and a million dollar mortgage, saving absolutely nothing? Still? After the housing bubble? Has nothing been learned? So, I sit and marvel at my little neighborhood bubble, wondering whether it truly is a bubble or I am just some dumb stump too stupid to get in on the game. It just seems to go on and on.

[BadJuju]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

I am not going to have children. I cannot imagine bringing them into this hellish world.

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

If young people were told the truth about sexual feelings, their hormones and inexperience about life wouldn't let them believe it. Young people know everything.

Sex plays a part in marriage, but good relationships are about so much more than sex. I live in a senior community. On my walks I see very old couples still holding hands and so much in love. I hope you can experience a relationship like that some day.

I am in a fairly good long term relationship. But what I don't like about the traditional system is that the most important experience (love) is pitted against the strongest emotion (sex). It does not have to be this way. But I will be dead long before society figures this out.